A discussion about drone tracking

[pilotinstitute]

Yesterday, we posted a video about drone tracking technology that's sparked many interesting reactions, from "I don't care about being tracked, I fly legally" to "this is an invasion of privacy".
Do you think this tech will be more or less intrusive than Remote ID? How do you feel knowing this tech has been around for nearly 4 years? You may have been caught flying illegally but nothing happened, does that make you feel better or worse about the tech?

There's no right or wrong answer, but a civil discussion is requested.

 

[lensimages]

Yesterday, we posted a video about drone tracking technology that's sparked many interesting reactions, from "I don't care about being tracked, I fly legally" to "this is an invasion of privacy".
Do you think this tech will be more or less intrusive than Remote ID? How do you feel knowing this tech has been around for nearly 4 years? You may have been caught flying illegally but nothing happened, does that make you feel better or worse about the tech?

There's no right or wrong answer, but a civil discussion is requested.

Think about this as much as I think about speed cameras, cheers Len

 

[Camino Ken]

I see the advantages for identifying nefarious flights but the risk of abuse of the system is potentially massive. A private security company with surreptitious ties to bad actors is all it takes.

 

[Saladshooter]

Remote ID will be much worse.... it will track all Remote ID equipped drones and give that information who anyone who wants to use it against you. Someone will be able to follow the information back to the Pilot to confront them or get law enforcement involved.

The information being broadcast will include altitude which can easily be misinterpreted as being illegal because it will be measured from the ground station / controller not the drone itself.

 

[zeusfl]

This can be even worse. In the wrong hands, somebody can track a drone in the air and follow where is to go and point you with a gun and still all your equipment at any moment.

Sorting who is flying about 400FT is something that is not accurate because the Remote ID is analyzed based on Takeoff Level. If you fly over a hill at 390FT AGL for example the Remote ID will show you are over 400FT and will not be true.

Some of the triggers will be true, some of them will not be true and some of them can be authorized.

The fact that other organizations other than the FAA can do this, is a privacy concern.

 

[Dronut]

I haven't had time to watch the video, but I do have a free program on my laptop called Kismet. It does a lot of wifi type stuff in the 2 and 5 ghz bands, discover body-cams and other bluetooth devices, as well as pick up signals from remote power meters and ADSB devices with the right add-ons devices. It can also track DJI drones. I haven't figured out how to use the drone tracking part of it yet.

Anyone else use Kismet? I'll give the drone tracking a go on the weekend.

Kismet: Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, RF, and more

Kismet is a sniffer, WIDS, and wardriving tool for Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Zigbee, RF, and more, which runs on Linux and macOS

www.kismetwireless.net

 

[DoomMeister]

I can understand using this tech at airports, SFRA areas, NSUFR, and TFR events. Not very keen on non FAA retention of data (aka Special Security according to your guest). The plus side of this system is that John Q Public won’t be able to track the location of the pilot like with the RID implementation.

I have no problem with LE approaching me about a flight, but Special Security is another matter. I fly within the regs so really have no problem with the concept of this system. Widespread use should incorporate terrain mapping instead of altitude relative to takeoff point, and if in controlled airspace should cross reference to authorizations to prevent false positives.

I am curious if this system is able to track aircraft that use the Zigbee protocol, or other standard RC control systems.

 

[Saladshooter]

I can understand using this tech at airports, SFRA areas, NSUFR, and TFR events. Not very keen on non FAA retention of data (aka Special Security according to your guest). The plus side of this system is that John Q Public won’t be able to track the location of the pilot like with the RID implementation.

I have no problem with LE approaching me about a flight, but Special Security is another matter. I fly within the regs so really have no problem with the concept of this system. Widespread use should incorporate terrain mapping instead of altitude relative to takeoff point, and if in controlled airspace should cross reference to authorizations to prevent false positives.

I am curious if this system is able to track aircraft that use the Zigbee protocol, or other standard RC control systems.

The exact method hasn't been decided yet but as written, Remote ID will be an unencrypted public transmission delivered over a wifi type signal. The rule was specifically written the way it is to allow the FAA and law enforcement to circumvent any need for a legal writ to use the system, but has the net effect of giving your information to people that shouldn't have access. Anyone with a cellphone will be able to receive the signal and make use of it without any specialized equipment.

As Remote ID will be a specific broadcast not a true detection system, someone could circumvent it by flying a drone that didn't have a transmitter. This would be illegal and would cut off a pilot's access to just about all DJI drones and most other recently produced camera drones from Autel and others which are believed to be Remote ID ready.

Complying with the rule will mothball your older drones and most handbuilt FPV drones unless retrofitted with a transmitter, broadcast your location to people who are uneducated about actual drone laws, and leave you exposed to confrontations with badly trained LEOs.

 

[dronerdave]

Yesterday, we posted a video about drone tracking technology that's sparked many interesting reactions, from "I don't care about being tracked, I fly legally" to "this is an invasion of privacy".
Do you think this tech will be more or less intrusive than Remote ID? How do you feel knowing this tech has been around for nearly 4 years? You may have been caught flying illegally but nothing happened, does that make you feel better or worse about the tech?

There's no right or wrong answer, but a civil discussion is requested.

For the most part I always fly or intend to fly in compliance. I’ll admit that DJI’s geo fencing has kept me out of a few places I was about to unintendedly encroach upon. As for this new tech monitoring (not RID), as long as the person dispatched to let me know I am flying out of compliance is legally authorized to do so, is correct on the nature of the violation and does their job to handle the situation in a civil manner, I doubt I’d have an issue. I don’t think I’d like an overzealous flight-cop to get nasty with me though. I mean I understand RC flying isn’t a right; there are rules to follow to legally participate in my flying privilege here in the US, but at the same time I do have a right to be treated with a little respect, especially if I’m treating them with respect. Actually, I really would rather have the company monitoring me send me an alert of some sort via a communications warning in real time on my own flight screen. Give me a warning so I can safely divert or get back to my home point and move on. I’ve always wondered what would happen if I was flying in national forest land and didn’t know a TFR has popped up due to a forest fire unknown to me that has just started. It can be difficult to gather pre-flight information when you are out of cell phone service and basically cutoff from the rest of the world. At least this monitoring tech seems to be able to supply enough info to determine if I’m a passive or aggressive offender. If I got a warning message telling me I’m in violation, I wouldn’t take that as a sour note, I’d take that as a good heads up, but that’s just my opinion. I do believe face to face enforcement can go south in some circumstances depending on one or both party’s attitudes. Basically, I feel if people refuse to heed an official warning (such as blatant repeat offenders often do), they got what’s coming to them. But I’d sure rather have the opportunity to be warned than being cited or having to jump through hoops to get my equipment back. With the amount of irresponsible RC flight operations continuing to increase, I’m more worried about an FAA knee jerk reaction to out of compliance flights that might limit what I’m allowed to perform now. If this helps to keep from having more restrictions put in place by the FAA, I'd feel that is a good thing.

 

[Dronut]

I just found out that Ocusync uses an SDR that operates on the 2.4ghz and 5.8ghz bands, so I can't check if Kismet detects my drone because my RTL-SDR dongle only goes up to 1.8ghz. It's also why I've never been able to discover it using an Alfa Network adapter.

 

[lensimages]

This can be even worse. In the wrong hands, somebody can track a drone in the air and follow where is to go and point you with a gun and still all your equipment at any moment.

Sorting who is flying about 400FT is something that is not accurate because the Remote ID is analyzed based on Takeoff Level. If you fly over a hill at 390FT AGL for example the Remote ID will show you are over 400FT and will not be true.

Some of the triggers will be true, some of them will not be true and some of them can be authorized.

The fact that other organizations other than the FAA can do this, is a privacy concern.

Don’t believe that anyone would point a gun at me because I was flying my drone, but there again I live in the U.K. thank goodness, cheers Len

 

[lensimages]

I haven't had time to watch the video, but I do have a free program on my laptop called Kismet. It does a lot of wifi type stuff in the 2 and 5 ghz bands, discover body-cams and other bluetooth devices, as well as pick up signals from remote power meters and ADSB devices with the right add-ons devices. It can also track DJI drones. I haven't figured out how to use the drone tracking part of it yet.

Anyone else use Kismet? I'll give the drone tracking a go on the weekend.

Kismet: Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, RF, and more

Kismet is a sniffer, WIDS, and wardriving tool for Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Zigbee, RF, and more, which runs on Linux and macOS

www.kismetwireless.net

For an 89 year old that’s not tec savvy, have found your Kismet but no idea on which choice of thingy to download, can you be a bit more precise on what to click on please cheers Len

 

[DoomMeister]

The exact method hasn't been decided yet but as written, Remote ID will be an unencrypted public transmission delivered over a wifi type signal. The rule was specifically written the way it is to allow the FAA and law enforcement to circumvent any need for a legal writ to use the system, but has the net effect of giving your information to people that shouldn't have access. Anyone with a cellphone will be able to receive the signal and make use of it without any specialized equipment.

As Remote ID will be a specific broadcast not a true detection system, someone could circumvent it by flying a drone that didn't have a transmitter. This would be illegal and would cut off a pilot's access to just about all DJI drones and most other recently produced camera drones from Autel and others which are believed to be Remote ID ready.

Complying with the rule will mothball your older drones and most handbuilt FPV drones unless retrofitted with a transmitter, broadcast your location to people who are uneducated about actual drone laws, and leave you exposed to confrontations with badly trained LEOs.

I understand about RID and was just pointing out that the only real drawback to RID is that “anyone” will be able to locate the pilot which could lead to confrontations. This makes the use of a module on older aircraft a plus as they will not transmit the location of the ground station.

With RID a pilot of a manned aircraft will theoretically be able to see a UA in the area they are flying in to raise awareness, and for automated UA’s to be able to detect traffic and avoid conflict. I do not see this detection system being able to alert GA pilots and automated UA’s in real time.

 

[KB9Radio]

I fly legally and don't worry any type of surveillance. Folks watching me would have to be very bored indeed.

 

[Saladshooter]

I understand about RID and was just pointing out that the only real drawback to RID is that “anyone” will be able to locate the pilot which could lead to confrontations. This makes the use of a module on older aircraft a plus as they will not transmit the location of the ground station.

An add-on broadcast module will still be required to transmit the take-off location.... just not transmit realtime location information of where the ground station / operator is located should you move after take-off.

 

[DoomMeister]

An add-on broadcast module will still be required to transmit the take-off location.... just not transmit realtime location information of where the ground station / operator is located should you move after take-off.

View attachment 145118

You are correct, I was thinking of the real-time update of the ground station. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[wardtom084]

The Russians would really like this NOW. Wonder what the range of this is. WOW price 50k and up.

 

[smfry60]

Yesterday, we posted a video about drone tracking technology that's sparked many interesting reactions, from "I don't care about being tracked, I fly legally" to "this is an invasion of privacy".
Do you think this tech will be more or less intrusive than Remote ID? How do you feel knowing this tech has been around for nearly 4 years? You may have been caught flying illegally but nothing happened, does that make you feel better or worse about the tech?

There's no right or wrong answer, but a civil discussion is requested.

I watched the video and am wondering if it's only DJI drones it's tracking?

 

[Saladshooter]

I watched the video and am wondering if it's only DJI drones it's tracking?

Aeroscope is only tracking DJI drones. There are some other more expensive technologies that can track drones by their transmissions and even close range radar.

Remote ID will be able to track anyone who has the tech installed in their drone but is still a year out.

 

[Michael Ainsworth]

Nowadays with all this internet, global satellite systems, smart phones, CCTV on every corner, Google Earth, pretty much every financial transaction tracked, public transport trips tracked through “Opal cards” here in Australia, there really is no real privacy for anyone who is involved with any of these systems.
Every shop you go into is tracked by your smart phone. Every transaction you make is tracked by advertising companies.
Every man and his dog has a smartphone with camera, cars have dash cams, roads have speed cameras and now using tech to catch you using mobile phone when driving. Toll roads track exactly when and where you enter and exit.
Being worried about drone tracking is just another addition. If you are that worried get rid of all your technological equipment, don’t use the internet, credit cards, smart phones, smart cars, GPS to travel around.

I could go on but basically pretty much everyone has given up their privacy already unless you live off the grid and then you wouldn’t be on this forum to read this