Battery Safety.......??

[Crow Horse]

I've been reading a bit on lithium battery safety and it's unclear what the best safety practices are. I've read a great deal about lithium ion batteries and the fires that can result but I don't know if that information transfers over to lipo batteries.

Because wind turbines are an "interest" of mine (I'm an opponent) and the current trend is to use lithium batteries for storage, the risk of a thermal runaway and fire is significant. AS an example. the battery fire at the Tesla Mega Battery in Victoria, Australia this past July showcased the hazards of such. Tesla's recommendation to fire fighters was to let it burn out and try to keep the surrounding batteries cool. It burned for 76 hours releasing toxic smoke (hydrogen fluoride) to the surrounding area. Nasty stuff and extremely hazardous. Obviously this fiasco is on a much larger scale than our batteries.

How similar are the lithium ion and the lipo batteries pertaining to potential risks? Are lipo bags effective ?

EDIT**** Correction - Moorabool, South Australia - Victorian Big Battery - Tesla Megapack battery units

 

[Starz]

Everyone will have their own ideas on how to contend with how to handle batteries. You may have already found some of this.

Lithium battery fires, what's the right info ??

.. The recent Gator / drone post here . . . https://mavicpilots.com/threads/alligator-snatches-drone-from-the-air-and-smokes-graphic-content.115634/ . . . shows vastly different advice / opinions regarding dealing with lipo / lithium fires. I didn't want to clutter up the thread there, so...

mavicpilots.com

 

[Crow Horse]

Yes, that's one of the threads I read through. The trouble is there is nothing definitive about the extinguishing procedure. What's presented is too ambiguous.

The smoke emitted by such a fire is another significant hazard.

Any firefighters out there with knowledge on this subject? It can't be sequestered too deep because we have the issue of the Chevy Bolts having a defect that causes fires.

 

[Starz]

I‘m watchful of where and what my batteries are doing. I leave the risk that lies beyond that to my insurance agent.
I realized the risks of this hobby when I jumped in several years ago and know that if this one goes bad, there are other avenues to enjoy.
Be safe!

 

[Crow Horse]

I respectfully agree and disagree. I agree with proper maintenance and monitoring the batteries condition but I don't get a warm fuzzy leaving anything beyond that to an insurance policy. I feel far more comfortable knowing that I've done everything humanly possible to avoid being able to cash in on an insurance policy. Too much to risk ie. my wife, our animals, irreplaceable items, etc. etc.. I'm big on safety possibly because I've seen too much in the past that has gone very wrong that might have been avoided if the proper steps were taken. My wife kids me about being Mr. Safety. I admittedly do go off the rails about it and it drives her crazy.....

 

[Starz]

My interest is doing what is necessary to be safe.
My other interest is not annoying my wife in the process.

 

[Meta4]

Because wind turbines are an "interest" of mine (I'm an opponent) and the current trend is to use lithium batteries for storage, the risk of a thermal runaway and fire is significant. AS an example. the battery fire at the Tesla Mega Battery in Victoria, Australia

There is no Tesla mega battery in Victoria.
Perhaps you meant South Australia.

There are a lot of wind farms in the region where I live.
They all connect directly to the national grid, none have battery storage.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

There is no Tesla mega battery in Victoria.

There is actually, near Geelong (edit, north of Geelong, Moorabool)
There was a lithium battery fire during commissioning . . .

Neoen-Tesla Victorian battery starts up

The 300-megawatt Victoria Big Battery has come online in just 12 months despite the fire that broke out at the project in July.

www.afr.com

UPDATE ON EMERGENCY INCIDENT - Victorian Big Battery

During initial testing on Friday 30th July at approximately 10 -10.15am a fire occurred within one of the Tesla Megapacks at the Victorian Big Battery. There were no injuries, the site was disconnected from the grid and there has been no impact to electricity supply. EPA’s air monitors have...

victorianbigbattery.com.au

Firefighters bring large battery fire near Geelong under control

The large battery fire that started at Moorabool on Friday has been brought under control.

news.cfa.vic.gov.au

 

[Meta4]

There is actually, near Geelong (edit, north of Geelong, Moorabool)
There was a lithium battery fire during commissioning . . .

Hmm ... the project has kept a low profile

 

[Gagey52]

I've been reading a bit on lithium battery safety and it's unclear what the best safety practices are. I've read a great deal about lithium ion batteries and the fires that can result but I don't know if that information transfers over to lipo batteries.

Because wind turbines are an "interest" of mine (I'm an opponent) and the current trend is to use lithium batteries for storage, the risk of a thermal runaway and fire is significant. AS an example. the battery fire at the Tesla Mega Battery in Victoria, Australia this past July showcased the hazards of such. Tesla's recommendation to fire fighters was to let it burn out and try to keep the surrounding batteries cool. It burned for 76 hours releasing toxic smoke (hydrogen fluoride) to the surrounding area. Nasty stuff and extremely hazardous. Obviously this fiasco is on a much larger scale than our batteries.

How similar are the lithium ion and the lipo batteries pertaining to potential risks? Are lipo bags effective ?

I agree about the wind turbines, the current designs are a total waste of resources that cannot be recycled. There has to be a better way.
Regards

 

[Crow Horse]

There is no Tesla mega battery in Victoria.
Perhaps you meant South Australia.

There are a lot of wind farms in the region where I live.
They all connect directly to the national grid, none have battery storage.

I apologize for getting several facts incorrect but a fire did occur......and it burned longer than it was in operation.

Tesla Megapack fire highlights issues to be solved for utility 'big batteries'

While the Victorian Big Battery is not the first system of its kind, it is one of the world's largest battery energy storage systems.

www.cnbc.com

 

[BigAl07]

As a long time rechargeable battery user (Nicads up to today's high density technology including Lithium) we have learned a LOT! Depending on the "type" of battery I'm charging determines how we charge and store. When I was flying large size R/C aircraft with crazy large LIPO packs I was charging them inside of "Cinder Block" cells and we kept a large ZipLoc bag of sand over each battery as it's charging. The Cinder Block is on a Concrete basement floor in an area easily ventilated. We did not leave the home or go to bed with a battery charging. I didn't sit and watch them every second of the charge but I wasn't far away and a Smoke Detector (linked to our homes security system) was in close proximity. For Storage we literally kept them in the "Vegetable Chiller Drawer" in a fridge to help prolong life of the packs. That was for our "Dumb" packs before we got "Smart" batteries.

I have unintentionally ignited a high capacity LIPO pack (not SMART battery). I tossed into the back floorboard of a car. I heard the loud POP (this was the charging leads touching and welding together) and knew immediately what was happening. I immediately got out (we weren't moving yet), grabbed the wires, tossed the pack on the asphalt and watched it swell and then shoot a "torch" of flame out a hole. It then proceeded to literally "torch" the asphalt and poured out some NASTY smoke. We allowed it to sit and burn out in just a couple of minutes and once it was just "smoldering" we used a standard fire extinguisher to put the residual flames out as they were merely the plastic case burning. The battery had given up it's energy and burned the O2 etc fairly quickly.

I've got pictures of the above pack destruction if I can find them I'll post them here.

With today's SMART Batteries I still monitor battery charging and don't leave home or go to bed with any of them charging but now they are charged on a Glass Top table and if I charge more than one at a time I have them separated so that if one self ignites it can't ignite another unit close by.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Hmm ... the project has kept a low profile

It was !!
So too the fire news.

Still, time will tell if / how practical and effective this is for states that take it up.
The SA facility has apparently helped us through a few times now and prevented other infrastructure damage when major power losses occurred.

 

[Droniac]

I've been reading a bit on lithium battery safety and it's unclear what the best safety practices are. I've read a great deal about lithium ion batteries and the fires that can result but I don't know if that information transfers over to lipo batteries.

Because wind turbines are an "interest" of mine (I'm an opponent) and the current trend is to use lithium batteries for storage, the risk of a thermal runaway and fire is significant. AS an example. the battery fire at the Tesla Mega Battery in Victoria, Australia this past July showcased the hazards of such. Tesla's recommendation to fire fighters was to let it burn out and try to keep the surrounding batteries cool. It burned for 76 hours releasing toxic smoke (hydrogen fluoride) to the surrounding area. Nasty stuff and extremely hazardous. Obviously this fiasco is on a much larger scale than our batteries.

How similar are the lithium ion and the lipo batteries pertaining to potential risks? Are lipo bags effective ?

I’m certain it’s posted, but I found solid info through a post of @big

I've been reading a bit on lithium battery safety and it's unclear what the best safety practices are. I've read a great deal about lithium ion batteries and the fires that can result but I don't know if that information transfers over to lipo batteries.

Because wind turbines are an "interest" of mine (I'm an opponent) and the current trend is to use lithium batteries for storage, the risk of a thermal runaway and fire is significant. AS an example. the battery fire at the Tesla Mega Battery in Victoria, Australia this past July showcased the hazards of such. Tesla's recommendation to fire fighters was to let it burn out and try to keep the surrounding batteries cool. It burned for 76 hours releasing toxic smoke (hydrogen fluoride) to the surrounding area. Nasty stuff and extremely hazardous. Obviously this fiasco is on a much larger scale than our batteries.

How similar are the lithium ion and the lipo batteries pertaining to potential risks? Are lipo bags effective ?

I saved a post from BigAl referring us to view an insight to your query.
BigAl can you help show a link to that post ?

-“Some of you may know Ken Booth who was originally active with DJI and very involved in their Battery Design. :”.

Sorry no time to link you to it but follow as it was very helpful. Flysafe and Godspeed, Droniac

 

[JMC3]

I have 50 years experience flying rc sail[planes and using large LIPOS and have seen them ignite. I keep mine in a small fireproof safe.
I cant go along with keeping them in a refrigerator. The plan is if there is a mishap I want it contained in a controlled environment. I gave away my sailplanes and batteries to a friend when I started flying drones. I also gave him a small safe that contained some lipos several weeks ago he opened the safe and smoke came billowing out he immediately took it outside. he found one battery had expanded and was self destructing.

 

[BigAl07]

I’m certain it’s posted, but I found solid info through a post of @big

I saved a post from BigAl referring us to view an insight to your query.
BigAl can you help show a link to that post ?

-“Some of you may know Ken Booth who was originally active with DJI and very involved in their Battery Design. :”.

Sorry no time to link you to it but follow as it was very helpful. Flysafe and Godspeed, Droniac

I think this is the link you're referring to:

DJI Batteries and Cold Weather . . .

Some of you may know Ken Booth who was originally active with DJI and very involved in their Battery Design. : (the below is 100% from Ken Booth) "First please look at the attached image, this should really explain all you need to know on how cold effects capacity. Once you understand this...

mavicpilots.com

 

[BigAl07]

I have 50 years experience flying rc sail[planes and using large LIPOS and have seen them ignite. I keep mine in a small fireproof safe.
I cant go along with keeping them in a refrigerator. The plan is if there is a mishap I want it contained in a controlled environment. I gave away my sailplanes and batteries to a friend when I started flying drones. I also gave him a small safe that contained some lipos several weeks ago he opened the safe and smoke came billowing out he immediately took it outside. he found one battery had expanded and was self destructing.

I'm not far behind you with 48 years of hobby aviation under my belt.... Out of literally hundreds, maybe even thousands of batteries (I currently have over 60 in my "active" inventory right now) I have never seen or heard of a single battery incident happening when it's in "Cool Storage". Note I don't charge them in there but the chemical reactions are greatly reduced in colder temps for "dumb" batteries. I have a fridge in my ManCave and the "Veg Drawer" is 100% dedicated to long term storage of dumb batteries. It makes a big difference in longevity of batteries having everything "slowed way down". I do NOT keep "Smart Batteries" in there due to the chip and other components installed the battery case.

Of course what works for one person may or may not work for another but I have kept my "dumb" Lipos in Cool Storage for years with zero incidents. YMMV

 

[Crow Horse]

A fireproof safe certainly sounds like a very cost effective safety measure. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Clintoops]

There are YouTuber battery safety videos. I have seen some using a ammo can like the military use .
Metal ones.

 

[JMC3]

I'm not far behind you with 48 years of hobby aviation under my belt.... Out of literally hundreds, maybe even thousands of batteries (I currently have over 60 in my "active" inventory right now) I have never seen or heard of a single battery incident happening when it's in "Cool Storage". Note I don't charge them in there but the chemical reactions are greatly reduced in colder temps for "dumb" batteries. I have a fridge in my ManCave and the "Veg Drawer" is 100% dedicated to long term storage of dumb batteries. It makes a big difference in longevity of batteries having everything "slowed way down". I do NOT keep "Smart Batteries" in there due to the chip and other components installed the battery case.

Of course what works for one person may or may not work for another but I have kept my "dumb" Lipos in Cool Storage for years with zero incidents. YMMV

the nice thing about rc "airplane" lipos is I have had instruments to fairly accurately evaluate the charge or lack of in the individual cells and have had smart chargers (assumable smart) to charge and discharge those batteries. with the drone batteries straight from the factory, DJI, I have looked for some kind of instrument to do the same as I did for the rc batteries with no success. The guys that fly fpv home constructed drones seem to have a leg up because they use the rc type battery and possibly have devices to accurately measure the cells. I am new to drones with only about a year plus and still learning. Many of the fields I flew rc sailplanes required several safety measures with battery use and safety. many of the guys I flew with kept their batteries in fireproof containers. I simply brought my safety concern over when i got into drones. I'm still learning and looking for better ways. By the time I get this figured out a new and better battery will come along as it did with rc aircraft.
John