[Canada] Urgent: How to prove "Basic" skills (TP-15263) without being a citizen

[Henfri]

Hello,

I am almost through the SFOC Process. Now I need a proof, that I am aware of the rules of TP-15263. But the test for "Basic" skills is behind a wall, that only canadians can pass. Any Ideas, how I can prove this?
There are course providers listed here, but they are all expensive -I could buy another mavic...

Any Ideas? I am traveling this week ...

Greetings,
Hendrik

 

[dawgpilot]

Maybe give Transport Canada a call?

 

[Henfri]

I did already.
That did not really help.

 

[dawgpilot]

I don't see any requirement in the rules for foreign operators that you take a test to show knowledge of the TP-15263 rules. Can you just include a statement saying that you are aware of them?

 

[dawgpilot]

Actually I just found this checklist: https://www.schanko.com/CHECKLIST-SFOC.pdf

Looks like if you hold a drone operator certificate from your home country, you can just include a copy of that.

 

[Henfri]

Hello,

I did that. They don't accept that. He said, they want me to be familiar with the Canadian rules (which I understand). What I don't understand is, why they don't let me just let me take the test then.

Well, I did the test anyway. I fear, I got the first question (about my citizenship wrong) though.
Note: One does not need to be canadian for a gckey!). I passed with 77% (but there were some odd questions).

Now I wonder, whether I should just leafe it as it is (although the certificate is not applicable to me) or send this in to prove my knowledge (which might make that officer who seems to be rather strikt) a bit upset, as I lied on Question #1.

Greetings,
Hendrik

 

[eteching]

Hello,

I did that. They don't accept that. He said, they want me to be familiar with the Canadian rules (which I understand). What I don't understand is, why they don't let me just let me take the test then.

Well, I did the test anyway. I fear, I got the first question (about my citizenship wrong) though.
Note: One does not need to be canadian for a gckey!). I passed with 77% (but there were some odd questions).

Now I wonder, whether I should just leafe it as it is (although the certificate is not applicable to me) or send this in to prove my knowledge (which might make that officer who seems to be rather strikt) a bit upset, as I lied on Question #1.

Greetings,
Hendrik

How did you take the test without being a canadian citizen? When i try to register there it asks for an authentication with some canadian data which i don't have

 

[Henfri]

Hello,

you can register for the gckey without being a canadian citizen.
You don not need any authentication.

So, I just called the officer that asked for the evidence of my knowledge and he was quite angry that I took the test and called it inacceptable. He will not accept this proof of knowledge and asked me not to call him again (which he called very irregular...). I should point out that I was being very polite for obvious reasons.

Regards,
Hendrik

 

[Henfri]

Actually I just found this checklist: https://www.schanko.com/CHECKLIST-SFOC.pdf
Looks like if you hold a drone operator certificate from your home country, you can just include a copy of that.

Yes, that is the checklist that I have received by them. I have provided my certificate by my home country. The officer does not accept that.
Also he does not accept the Transport canada one (because I should not be allowed to take the test).

Usually I would ask to speak to his supervisor, but I fear there is no process for that.

Regards,
Hendrik

 

[kingsnake11]

Yeah...well...getting a gckey….and then using it to do the basic certifications really isn't going to sit well. It is pretty clear in the section 900 of CARS that you have to be a Canadian citizen to hold the certification. I am not a lawyer but I would bet that not only would it be frowned upon, it could very well be illegal. I think that all you had to do was affirm that you 1} read the TC requirements and downloaded the CAR 900 section and read them. 2) you are aware of the safety requirements and regulations stated in the CARS. That should have been put into your SFOC. The checklist is pretty clear and unless there are a lot of NO's checked off, there shouldn't be a problem. You could politely resubmit, making sure to not let them know that you took the test, and make sure that there are no boxes unchecked. You can add further descriptions if you think that is necessary. I can tell you from experience that you have to fill out the form correctly...or what they believe to be correctly, or the SFOC will not be granted. Good luck. BTW, you are correct about the gckey...people use it to access services, such as citizenship and other services provided by the government to both citizens and not yet citizens.

 

[Henfri]

Hello,

>I am not a lawyer but I would bet that not only would it be frowned upon, it could very well be illegal

I did only take the test, not fly with the license.

> You could politely resubmit, making sure to not let them know that you took the test

Well, the officer knows already (by phone) and is upset. Of course I wouldn't have to state it in writing.
But he had befor that already stated that he does not accept anything but a certificate by a canadian training provider.

So, unless I find a way to escalate this to his superior or to -by coincidence- get my file to a different officer, my chances are close to zero, I fear.
This is annoying because the process clearly asks for a foreign or canadian proof. So I think I am right.



Regards,
Hendrik

 

[kingsnake11]

I think you are right too. I suspect that the clerk was simply pissed at you and is being difficult at his discretion, however wrong. It's like being stopped for speeding and for some reason the officer decides to be a jerk and ticket you for speeding, and then citing you for perceived or imaginary infractions, such as a cracked windshield, tires under inflated and all sorts of other stuff he can put against you. Your only option is to document and have your day in court. My advice is to make a formal request to the TC regional director's office in writing stating your case with proof that you have followed their checklist and would like clarification and review as to why it has not been granted given that you have followed their rules. They have no choice but to log and deal with the letter in a timely manner and get back to you in writing. It is your right to formally ask for the reason you are being denied. Don't let them tell you that it's not. If you really want to stir up the nest, you can always lodge a formal complaint with the ministers office...again, all complaints are logged and by statute have to be acted upon. I'm a retired veteran of over 30 years in a minor and unimportant government agency doing insignificant work so I know a little about the process.

 

[Henfri]

Hello,

I agree with your analysis. But he was being pissed at me even before I gave him any reason. So I suspect that he will be difficult to everyone.
I will make a formal request. It will not help me (time constraint; traveling this weekend), but maybe other tourists.

Another option that has been pointed out to me:
One can join MAAC. Members are excempt from the aviation rules for RPAS. Membership costs $80 for 3 months (that is the minimum) and includes liability insurance. That's a good deal.

Downside: According to
https://secure.maac.ca/get_document.php?document_id=499
"10. The member of MAAC shall not operate a RPAS unless the member has successfully demonstrated to a person delegated by MAAC in accordance with MAAC’s rules, procedures, and safety guidelines that the member has sufficient knowledge and experience to control the RPAS in a safe and competent manner unless in the case where the member is under the direct supervision of a qualified MAAC instructor;"

Greetings,
Hendrik

 

[Henfri]

I found a basic training here:
Canadian RPAS Basic | Foreign Pilots for acceptable $89

 

[Moose1967]

I am from Canada and was wondering the same - we don’t need get USA citizens to take a road test to come drive here
- gonna follow this to see what the result is

 

[eteching]

This is what I received from the SFOC agent today:
From the checklist, please provide
Item 6- copy of a valid passport – 1 page with photo
Item 7 - provide a copy of foreign RPAS certificate or proof of completion TP15263 – We understand that a RPAS certificate is not needed in your country for certain type of operation. In your case, in Canada you have to provide me a proof of completion of a TP15263 course. I have included a link to those school; some of them offer the course via Internet.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/drone-safety/get-drone-pilot-certificate/find-drone-flight-school.html

Well, it looks like a dead end otherwise I have to pay the 80$ for the above liked certificate (which is indeed cheap - the other offers I saw were all close to 500$).

 

[kingsnake11]

Hello,

I agree with your analysis. But he was being pissed at me even before I gave him any reason. So I suspect that he will be difficult to everyone.
I will make a formal request. It will not help me (time constraint; traveling this weekend), but maybe other tourists.

Another option that has been pointed out to me:
One can join MAAC. Members are excempt from the aviation rules for RPAS. Membership costs $80 for 3 months (that is the minimum) and includes liability insurance. That's a good deal.

Downside: According to
https://secure.maac.ca/get_document.php?document_id=499
"10. The member of MAAC shall not operate a RPAS unless the member has successfully demonstrated to a person delegated by MAAC in accordance with MAAC’s rules, procedures, and safety guidelines that the member has sufficient knowledge and experience to control the RPAS in a safe and competent manner unless in the case where the member is under the direct supervision of a qualified MAAC instructor;"

Greetings,
Hendrik

You may be right that he is so totally biased against drones that his bias affects his responsibility as an official with a job to do. It is more important to go through with the requests. with the hope that the bias is disclosed and that he doesn't be a biased jerk to anyone else. Unfortunately, that is human nature sometimes. The MAAC idea sound...however, it applies if you fly at a MAAC field.... so just because you're a MAAC member in good standing and everyone claps at you're ability to take stunning photographs and video of the MAAC field, it doesn't mean you can fly anywhere else outside the MAAC field without the certifications. I belong to two MAAC clubs and instruct at one....but I still did my basic and full advanced certifications so I can fly outside the field. Most of the people I know have simply decided to skip the certification and fly their RPAS's at a MAAC field. Remember, there term RPAS also means ANY type of remote piloted aerial vehicle...so all the fixed wing rc aircraft would have to be flown by a certified pilot outside of a MAAC field. Further, MAAC has also issued guidelines as to what and how your RPAS has to be labeled before you can fly it at a MAAC field. One more thing....I have heard people say that they will only fly RPAS's under 250grams so the rules don't apply. Actually that is not true....if you read the regulations carefully, it states that RPAS under 250grams, at this time, do not need to be registered, not do you have to have a certification to fly them. However, it doesn't mean that you can be a **** and fly them at and around people or airports...or in any other potentially dangerous manner....you are still obligated to fly it in a safe manner. There was a long time flying spot in a local park that people have been fly at for at least 30 years and recently, used by people flying small under 250grams RPAS's. Well about 2 weeks ago, a scofflaw decided to wind up his 3 inch hawk and buzz people and nearly hit a few dogs, thinking that non of the rules applied to him. The result of the complaints was the municipality ejecting all the flyers from the park, and putting up signs that prohibit RC flying at the park. The bylaw has been around for a while, but wasn't enforced because until this happened, the park was shared and the flying was done with respect to bystanders...ie...no complaints. Sorry for the story telling...but it does get my blood pressure up because the reason we have had to endure and adapt to what are pretty stiff regulations is because of a few scofflaw idiots who have ruined it for the vast majority of safe fliers.

 

[Henfri]

Hello kingsnake,

I will file a complaint not for me but for others, in the hope to improve things.

Regarding your story telling: I understand that. It's the same here in Germany. All these rules and regulations because of some idiots.
There are rules that you can't fly closer than 2km to an airfield. Now people do fly closer than that and the reaction of the politics is, that one should increase the rule to 5km.
Hm, ... how would that help?

Anyway. Regarding MAAC:
I am in contact with a MAAC local director. He informed me that one can fly in uncontrolled airspace even if that is not from an MAAC field, see paragraph 12 of the document I linked above.

Greetings
Hendrik

 

[kingsnake11]

Hi Hendrik...Yes...you can fly in Class G airspace (unrestricted airspace) without too many restrictions, however, if your aircraft is over 250grams, you are subject to the transport Canada rules and hence need a certification at the basic level. Being a member of MAAC and labeling your aircraft under their rules, do not supersede the transport Canada rules. The main reasons for the exemption is so that flying at MAAC fields can continue...the realty of which is that most of the MAAC fields are within some type of controlled airspace.

 

[Henfri]

Hello,

that is not how I read the excemption:
It clearly states:
"hereby exempt Model Aeronautics Association of Canada, Unit 9, 5100 South Service Road, Burlington, Ontario and their members in good standing from the requirements set out in Part IX of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) as amended from time to time, subject to the following conditions. "

So, MAAC members are excempt.

"This exemption applies to Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) and lheii members in good standing that operate remotely piloted aircraft systems weighing between 250 grams and 35 kilograms in accordance with MAAC’s safety guidelines as amended from time to time."

BUT, these rules apply:
-VLOS
-Member must have demonstrated his knowledge and experience to a person delegated by MAAC
-Mark the RPAS with Membership number

The rest is common sense rules (avoid aircraft, don't fly reckless, ...)


And then, if you want to fly in controlled airspace and only then, two additional rules apply:
-The member of MAAC operating a RPAS in Class C, D, E, F, or any other type of restricted airspace shall take-off, launch, land, or recover from a field sanctioned by MAAC [...]
-The member of MAAC operating a RPAS in Class C, D, E, F, or in any type of restricted airspace shall adhere to all the conditions that are detailed in the agreement with the controlling agency or user agency for the area;


So: If you are a tourist, you can use this as an option to avoid the SFOC

Comparison:
SFOC:
Goverment process, >30 days, Training&Test, chepest I found Canadian RPAS Basic | Foreign Pilots for $89
MAAC:
Non Profit organization, Liability Insurance included. No formal test needed. $60 for three month membership (minimum). Need to demonstrate skill to a MAAC delegate (and I can imagine that this is also possible by not doing this in person; but one can certainly also visit an MAAC field and visit nice people; certainly nicer than the TC officer I was in contact with)


Greetings,
Hendrik