Mavic Pro: why DJI doesn't fix this huge flickering/compression problem?

[deadwing]

Hello everyone


I got my Mavic since a few days, and being an experienced photographer and good experience with video as well, I'm really disappointed.

I've done three days of intense tests, pictures quality is really good, videos quality (compression algorithm) is appalling. Below raw footage in DLOG, all manual, 2.7k 30fps (same thing in 4k 30fps, just worse), 240 shutter, but this problem is the same at 60 or 1000...the problem is the 8 frames GOP compression, it makes any change of exposure/details horribly flickering most of all when there's none to small movement.

This is raw footage...clouds rolling, so light changing, loads of details on the bottom and a more static/detailed in the upper half..result is disastrous. But even on more static or less detailed subjects, shadows suffer terribly of this problem, as well as any detail.

I've seen and tried Flicker Free plugin, but it doesn't solve really always the problem, and cannot be a solution to a problem that is obvious in Mavic firmware/compression settings!

Any suggestion/feedback?

 

[zucker.fishing]

Try switching the sharpness level on the mavic video settings to +1 and then reducing sharpness in post. This helped me tons with this sort of problem. This is because when the mavics sharpness setting is at 0 and below it automatically does this to the footage for some reason. Hope this is the fix you're after.

 

[deadwing]

Try switching the sharpness level on the mavic video settings to +1 and then reducing sharpness in post. This helped me tons with this sort of problem. This is because when the mavics sharpness setting is at 0 and below it automatically does this to the footage for some reason. Hope this is the fix you're after.

Hi thanks for suggestion, forgot to say that I'm already shooting with sharpness +1 (and -1 -1 the others), and in dlog, I've read tons of posts and recommendations, that's why I choose the 2.7k 30fps dlog +1 -1 -1 (all manual).

I also tried applying a selective (shadows) or total denoise, it doesn't really help as it's not a noise problem. The 8 frames GOP is so extremely large that between the key frames the exposure gets recalculated every 8th frame (as it's clearly visible in my video) and that is not recoverable with a denoise...depending on the severity, is not even recoverable by Digital Alchemy flicker free plugin.

Anyone got a way to really go around this problem as much as possible at the source? I wonder how much post processing/denoising is done on all those videos online...I really think the quality is so appalling that I'm surprised there's no video online talking about it, if I knew I would never have bought this thing (and I see is also on other ones so is not Mavic specific but more about the severe and not optimised compression settings they use?).

Any other feedback or anyone experiencing similar issue to my video? Something else I should check?

 

[zucker.fishing]

Using the same settings you mentioned, the raw footage I had was practically unwatchable. However when I drastically changed sharpness post production the footage was amazing. If you reduce sharpness too much it will take away the static but leave it with too much of a blur so its kinda hard to find the right balance. I don't know if it might be some other problem. Using go pro studio, which I know isn't the best editing software however it has been getting the job done for me, I found adjusting the sharpness level to -.42 turned out to be perfect.

I suggest not giving up because you really can get some amazing footage with it. Heres one of my first videos shot yesterday.

 

[deadwing]

Using the same settings you mentioned, the raw footage I had was practically unwatchable. However when I drastically changed sharpness post production the footage was amazing. If you reduce sharpness too much it will take away the static but leave it with too much of a blur so its kinda hard to find the right balance. I don't know if it might be some other problem. Using go pro studio, which I know isn't the best editing software however it has been getting the job done for me, I found adjusting the sharpness level to -.42 turned out to be perfect.

I suggest not giving up because you really can get some amazing footage with it. Heres one of my first videos shot yesterday.

Wow that footage looks exactly like what I cannot achieve and using a professional software like Final Cut Pro X and even the always recommended Flicker Free!

Ok I'm going to give your suggestion a try and will report back shortly..

 

[deadwing]

I just tried Go Pro Studio...reducing sharpness reduces details but doesn't really help...

Below is a less extreme example, you can see that the clouds move on the water not smoothly (every 8th frame) and there's after a few seconds also a continuous evident exposure 'adjustment' (a flicker) pulsing at the GOP rate (like the clouds)...this is unacceptable but at least fixable with loads of time and the money to buy Flicker Free plugin...

I just wonder if I'm having specifically bad experiences or there's something else going on....everyone gets amazing footage, but my footage to start with seems so appalling that is unbelievable..I do want to like this drone taking videos as much as I like it's simple and nice DMG raw pictures...but it seems impossible with that severe compression going on!

Anything else I should check/change? The details and exposure flickering is just so bad that I can't explain how people get good footage with that compression going on..

 

[geigy]

Definitely something wrong. I would go into Camera settings and do a reset just to start with a clean slate. I use +1 sharpness to avoid an over-smoothed appearance.

 

[deadwing]

Definitely something wrong. I would go into Camera settings and do a reset just to start with a clean slate. I use +1 sharpness to avoid an over-smoothed appearance.

Thanks for suggestion...do you have any RAW footage (maybe somehow similar to my situation) as an example and possibly suggesting the full settings you used to di it? I use +1 sharpness, DLOG, 2.7k 30fps, manual exposure/balance etc., and I can't figure out what's wrong with that GOP flicker of details and shadows/lights..

 

[dwallersv]

@deadwing, you're a far more experienced photographer than me, so I'm rather hesitant to ask this but we should look at everything...

Are you shooting in auto or manual? I have all sorts of exposure stepping when I shoot in auto, and it ruins the footage. Started shooting in manual, making sure the use appropriate ND filters to dial shutter down to 2x framerate, set ISO for proper exposure, then go.

While in flight, I've got ISO on the right wheel, and will adjust exposure myself if the EV value is too far off, or I don't like the way it looks. This is so much more controlled so it is easy to adjust in post.

Anyway, I feel like I'm asking a brain surgeon if they remembered to scrub before surgery, but it seemed we ought to eliminate this one for completeness. Even brain surgeons make mistakes

 

[deadwing]

@deadwing, you're a far more experienced photographer than me, so I'm rather hesitant to ask this but we should look at everything...

Are you shooting in auto or manual? I have all sorts of exposure stepping when I shoot in auto, and it ruins the footage. Started shooting in manual, making sure the use appropriate ND filters to dial shutter down to 2x framerate, set ISO for proper exposure, then go.

While in flight, I've got ISO on the right wheel, and will adjust exposure myself if the EV value is too far off, or I don't like the way it looks. This is so much more controlled so it is easy to adjust in post.

Anyway, I feel like I'm asking a brain surgeon if they remembered to scrub before surgery, but it seemed we ought to eliminate this one for completeness. Even brain surgeons make mistakes

Thanks for your reply, you are absolutely right asking all these questions thanks

Yes I shoot always in full manual (and always 100 iso or anyway under 400 to avoid any noise). As I'm still waiting for my DJI filter set I cannot always shoot in 2x fps, but for all the rest is all checked.

This afternoon I did some more tests varying the mode from DLOG to Cinelike or Normal, and also more crucially going from +1 sharpness to -2, just to make it a more visible test.I have to say that not shooting in dlog seems to help a bit but not much, that makes sense as in theory the minor dynamics I get avoiding DLOG should mean less data for the limited bandwidth.

What made a huge difference, and actually produced a much nicer result, was the sharpness to -2. I read like everyone the reports online about using +1 and all theory behind it, but looking at the footage honestly it looks like +1 maybe WAS the more 'no processed' signal, but it looks to me like a too strong sharpening process is applied (that obviously makes the limited bandwidth of the compression work harder in particular with all the details of grass and trees.

I'll have to do more tests, but definitely they're going in the direction of using sharpness 0 or -1, to keep footage still good...if I have to apply sharpening, I'd rather apply it late with serious processing power not in the Mavic, also considering that shooting in 2.7k or even higher would help anyway as I have then to convert it 1080.

Anyone have any other idea? For now the sharpness +1 seems the culprit..not in itself, but seems to me a processing that trying to make footage look better in 'ideal situation' (classic use of drone with objects far away and not too complex) makes it look much worse in more demanding situations (details and shadows).

Is anyone here using +1 sharpness or indeed I'm not the only one thinking that not using DLOG and not using Sharpness +1 actually helps mitigating compression artifacts for 'not classic drone' footage?

 

[DomoDan]

Slightly off topic but when people talk about 2X frame rate, what does that mean exactly and how do you adjust those things?

 

[deadwing]

Slightly off topic but when people talk about 2X frame rate, what does that mean exactly and how do you adjust those things?

It means very simply that if you shoot at 30fps (for example), you ideally want shutter speed at 60, and these settings are all adjustable in the video settings (just under the recording button on the DJI app on iOS).

Is not essential with all that compression going on, but surely is the icing on the cake

 

[DomoDan]

Cool. I've got a good set of filters but am new to all this stuff. On the plane to NYC right now and want to get some good sunrise and sunset footage with the city skyline. I've got 2 shots at sunrise and one at sunset so I want to get it right.

 

[deadwing]

Hello everyone, after doing some even more 'scientific' tests I've got some results.

They match with others on this forum, but they definitely disagree with the great video we all saw suggesting that sharpness +1 is the 'natural' (no processing) setting.

First of all the tests I'm doing, like in my first post video, are to put encoder to the extreme situation: contrasty scene, moving nearby small fine details (greenery moved by wind) and on same imagine a more far (but not too much) equally detailed background (loads of trees) in the shadows nearby a lit sky. In this demanding situation, using sharpness +1 underlines the work behind the compression and the GOP frames are the 'sharpened' ones while the others are very compressed, and that leads to all 'flickering' problems (details, edges, shadows/lights) we see everywhere on this forum (and that I found more disappointing than I expected).

To be honest all the nice Youtube footage I've seen, I realise now, is filmed from very high in the sky, in stable light, and so you get a frame without much fine detail, without moving lights, and all frame moving more uniformly and slowly (not bottom half moving 'fast'), or other are test shots on a bunch of trees or 'static' scenes with drone not moving. Now that I know that defect, I spotted the same 'shadows/light' and details flickering in loads of these, and yesterday I even spotted it clearly on a recent BBC documentary footage that was filmed by a drone!

I think the problem here is that the small sensor cannot (understandably) get too much detail, and DJI try with sharpness to save situation a bit, tuning it with the classic shots everyone will do (high in the sky), but it shows the compression limits on any more 'demanding' situation.

Someone else (many) here said that the ideal settings for sharpness was -2, and I have to say it's actually true. I found that sharpness -2 produces the most 'natural' result, considering that is much better to actually try and sharpen a bit in production, where you have much more control and you can actually sharpen more uniformely ALL frames not just the key ones (and so no flickering).

I tried all sharpness settings in both 4k and 2k at 30fps, and interesting is also that 0 in 2k has same 'defects' of -1 in 4k, -1 in 2k has same 'defects' of -2 in 4k and so on, really almost identical, but once you arrive at -3 on 4k (and so my ideal -2 in 2k) you get a much worst result in 4k than in 2k. Someone on this forum said -2 -1 -1 2k 30fps is the ticket, indeed I found the same. I've done all tests on the same field and same flight path. I'll probably use 2k -1 sharpness when doing less demanding footage in terms of details/movement/light, but the sweet spot is for me -2.

To be honest working on this I started realising that anything sharpness 0 and up looks to me a lot 'digitally' processed..it has that 'wow' factor at first but looks more 'cool' than natural/film, is a lot like all those HDR pictures...is cool and has wow factor to the unaided eye, but it looks very unnatural and 'fake' to me, as I like more 'real' photo or video.

Below the same place of my first video filmed in 2k -2 -1 -1 30fps, conformed 24fps and graded and sharpened a bit to be still natural and 'film' like (to my taste), the sky is blown out as I was filming in Natural (I'll be back in DLOG as it's not the problem and has a wider dynamic), but in the end I wanted sky very bright to be in contrast with the critical shadow area of the trees:

 

[Lou]

Deadwing, great share! I will definitely be following your setting choices.

 

[Cbslagle]

Throw an ND16 in the mix and it takes care of a lot of the flicker. You could even do an ND32 and shoot an ISO of 400 or so. At mid-day, my ND16 allows me to almost have a shutter of 1/60. Yesterday however, I had to shoot at 1/80th.

 

[deadwing]

I used ND filters in my following tests, ND8 and ND16, it makes obviously easier to expose, but the shutter speed has nothing to do with the flickering nor with the quality of encoding, but more with the 'looks' of the footage in some situations (in particular if filming in 24 or 25 fps for the cinema look).

Furthermore I didn't stop with my tests, as there are a few more things to throw into the equation, that is the PAL/NTSC (and 50/60 anti flicker) settings, that actually shouldn't do any difference, and the FRAME RATE.

Now this is instead something that can make a huge impact, not only in the looks (I personally like the cinematic look but others might like the 'videocamera' 30fps), but in the quality.

Mavic encoder works with constant bit rate, 60mbps for ANYTHING 4k, and 45mbps (DJI why not 60 and with better quality??) for all 2k footage:

*** General Parameters ***
- Name: DJI_0102.MOV
- Container: MOV - QuickTime
- Size: 713.03 MB
- Duration: 2mn 6s
- Bitrate: 45.0 Mbps

*** Video Track Parameters ***
- Format: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC
- Bitrate: Max.: --- / Average: 45.0 Mbps / Min.: ---
- Frame rate (fps): Max.: --- / Average: 29.970 / Min.: ---
- Encoding profile: [email protected]
- Image size: 2720*1536
- Pixel Aspect Ratio: Undefined
- Display Aspect Ratio: 16:9
- Interlacing: Progressive



*** General Parameters ***
- Name: DJI_0099.MOV
- Container: MOV - QuickTime
- Size: 1.138 GB
- Duration: 2mn 32s
- Bitrate: 59.9 Mbps

*** Video Track Parameters ***
- Format: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC
- Bitrate: Max.: --- / Average: 60.0 Mbps / Min.: ---
- Frame rate (fps): Max.: --- / Average: 29.970 / Min.: ---
- Encoding profile: [email protected]
- Image size: 3840*2160
- Pixel Aspect Ratio: Undefined
- Display Aspect Ratio: 16:9
- Interlacing: Progressive



This is for any frame rate you use, and it explains why the higher you get (in some resolutions 60fps) the worst it is as it's not real 60fps. Anyway this also means one IMPORTANT thing: if you shoot at 24fps get 20% more bandwidth available for general frames quality.

I say that as it's a simple math, and most of all because yesterday I did some tests and I saw an evident change (in better) in the GOP compression artifacts (what all users perceive as flicker of various forms).

Today I did in the same field the same tests in 2k and 4k, each at +1 0 -1 sharpness settings,and all this in NTSC (24fps) and PAL (25fps), and using as well a ND filter.

Later I'm going to check the footage and will report back. Two questions anyway arise for DJI that could make things better: why not using ALWAYS the maximum bandwidth available of 60mbps (or asking user if they want more quality or smaller file size)? And also, why using constant bitrate when modern variable bitrate encoding offers much better results for the same bandwidth?

 

[deadwing]

So as promised I went through some more test footage yesterday and I can confirm my early findings: the limited bandwidth of the Mavic Pro (60mbps 4k and 45mbp for 2k) means that the compression algorithm makes one frame every 8 as real and the others are calculated, and so with very complex/demanding scenes:

1) greenery or other fine moving details
2) fast moving parts of the video and almost stable others
3) bright lights and dark shadows,

the compression struggles and you see the (in)famous flicker. The ideal setting to produce the most 'natural' (filmic) look is -2 in terms of compression, as it always returns smooth and flicker free results. Pushing it to -1 is risky and can be done only if you have very clear that your scene will be not demanding (in terms of the parameters I listed above).

Added to all this, as the bandwidth of the compression is constant, it means that if you shoot at 24fps instead of 30fps (cinematic effect and possibly 1/50) you get about 20% more bandwidth as you're shooting 20% less frames per seconds. This obviously means that the compression assigns this quality to make every single frame better. I can clearly see that in all kind of additional tests I did, and sometimes the difference can be enough to allow me to push Sharpness from -2 to -1.

So my conclusion is that 2k Sharpness -2 is the safest bet for both 30fps and 24fps, but for less demanding scenes (and when you can maybe do a test shot and check) you might use 2k Sharpness -1 at 24fps.

There's no difference in encoding quality if you use PAL or NTSC, just be sure to have anti flicker set to 50hz if using PAL or 60hz if you use NTSC (be aware that because of a bug you might need to set temporarily your camera to Auto to change the Anti Flicker settings). About NTSC/PAL as many asks, it doesn't matter if you use only Youtube/computers, and if you put in on a disc (dvd/bluray) or play on a TV, it doesn't matter either most of the times on modern setups. Older setups might actually be more difficult, in that case remember that most PAL systems can correctly reproduce/play NTSC, while is not the same the other way round, so if in doubt I would always use NTSC. Obviously if you plan to shoot with artificial lights then switch to PAL or NTSC (anti flicker 50hz or 60hz respectively) accordingly to where you are.

About shutter speeds: it doesn't make flickering or encoding quality worse or better, and most of the times it doesn't matter too much if you shoot at 30fps. BUT it does matter if you plan to conform your footage to filmic 24fps, or if you shoot at 24fps, so in that case use the usual rule (1/50 for 24fps/25fps and 1/60 if you shoot in 30fps to be then conformed to 24fps). The official DJI ND filters are the ones I recommend, as they are high quality and super light/thin and cleverly made to be an exact and easy/tight fit.

Last but not least, the picture mode (DLOG etc.) doesn't matter as well in terms of encoding quality, but definitely the DLOG offers more dynamic range, and united with the highlights warning (zebra) and an ND filter allow for perfect exposure of highlights and shadows even in demanding situations.


All this tested and done with latest available firmware(s) available to date. Over next few days will do some more real life footage based on these settings and might post more. If any suggestion or feedback let me know as I'm curious to know if you agree with my findings or not. Considering that I'm approaching it with a very critical eye of movie making and finding settings producing always pleasant cinematic results (no matter what the filming situation is) instead of 'wow factor' youtube show offs

 

[DomoDan]

Can you share with me what application you use for editing after the fact?

You clearly have WAY more knowledge and expertise, as well as time and patience to sort all of this out. Thank you for sharing. I'd be silly not to go with your recommendations. I'd just like to better understand the ENTIRE process, if you don't mind.

 

[deadwing]

I use Final Cut Pro X for editing and grading and conforming, as on Mac it's the fastest in performance and rendering.

My workflow changes every time depending on the footage and what I need to produce, there's no such thing as 'magic workflow'

A very basic one can be to just edit and do the montage, then color grade simply using Lut Utility for FCP (LUT Utility Standalone) and one of the many LUTs around for Mavic Pro (applied 50% not more!), and then create a new timeline at 24fps (if you need to conform from 30fps), copy/paste your montage there, select it all and choose Retime - Automatic Speed (the footage will simply play at 24fps naturally).