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Merge all AEB photos or just pick a single one?

RonanCork

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Hey Guys,

Lately I've been practicing my photography more (I do more video that photo tbh).

Shooting RAW (with an ND-4 on from previous video work) and trying out different shutter speeds to get more practice and try to improve.

What I would have typically done is shot RAW using AEB-5 and the just picked the slightly (or maybe most) underexposed image and then import that into LIghtroom and try to work on it there.

Was wondering is this what folks typically do ? I've also heard of people merging all 5 photos into one ? Not sure if that's the way to go. Was going to try it but I can't see an option for it in Lightoom.

Not a huge fan of the Smart Photo option tbh but I've tried some 48mp photos too.

The version of LR is Adobe Photoshop Lightroom v3.3. See attached image for screenshot.

Any thoughts / guidance would be good

Thanks Ro
 

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Hey Guys,

Lately I've been practicing my photography more (I do more video that photo tbh).

Shooting RAW (with an ND-4 on from previous video work) and trying out different shutter speeds to get more practice and try to improve.

What I would have typically done is shot RAW using AEB-5 and the just picked the slightly (or maybe most) underexposed image and then import that into LIghtroom and try to work on it there.

Was wondering is this what folks typically do ? I've also heard of people merging all 5 photos into one ? Not sure if that's the way to go. Was going to try it but I can't see an option for it in Lightoom.

Not a huge fan of the Smart Photo option tbh but I've tried some 48mp photos too.

The version of LR is Adobe Photoshop Lightroom v3.3. See attached image for screenshot.

Any thoughts / guidance would be good

Thanks Ro
The way you are doing it can often be the best way to do it.

For high dynamic range scenes you can select all the bracketed photos and right click and select “Merge to HDR”. Best practice is to only use this method if it is really necessary because even done perfectly you still bring some softness into the frame and honestly most of the time people overuse this and make their photos look like junk.

Lots of people merge 5 photos and they seem to be happy with the results but it’s my opinion that you should use no more than 3 and 2 is usually plenty.

Also stop using that ND filter for photography. it’s working against what you want to get sharp crisp photos.
 
The way you are doing it can often be the best way to do it.

For high dynamic range scenes you can select all the bracketed photos and right click and select “Merge to HDR”. Best practice is to only use this method if it is really necessary because even done perfectly you still bring some softness into the frame and honestly most of the time people overuse this and make their photos look like junk.

Lots of people merge 5 photos and they seem to be happy with the results but it’s my opinion that you should use no more than 3 and 2 is usually plenty.

Also stop using that ND filter for photography. it’s working against what you want to get sharp crisp photos.
I mean... So I have 2 cents to pitch in...

Every single one of my panoramas is a 5-AEB merged picture. Some are 35 pictures, all the way up to 125 pictures.



@RonanCork If you use LR, I would always, 100% of the time, without fail, merge pictures.

There are shadows in the foreground that are brighter on the over exposed photos, but there are highlights in the backround that are more defined on the under exposed photos.

As far as filters go... I use them all the time. As long as my subject is not moving, the 5-AEB takes care of the exposure, and means less aggressive gradient filters.

It does mean longer exposures, but... LR is amazing, and can figure a lot of the cloud movement out with DeGhosting... I prefer a little motion though, because it adds a "softness" to the clouds, which are "soft" in appearance anyway.

like I said, I had two cents, there they are lol... maybe more like 5 cents though.




stormintro2.jpg
 
There is no need to merge the photos unless you need the high dynamic range. For most of the time, I just use one picture.

Merging photos in LR has it's down side. Two examples :

These are 100% crops of the merged photos produced by photoshop's HDR function ( LR is the same I assume ) and that produced by the Aurora HDR software. In the picture produced by PS HDR, there are some artifacts surrounding the highlight areas :

1597028944835.png

Another 100% crop of the same picture. Some of the light trails in the PS HDR photo are hollow :

1597029276420.png
 
I mean... So I have 2 cents to pitch in...

Every single one of my panoramas is a 5-AEB merged picture. Some are 35 pictures, all the way up to 125 pictures.



@RonanCork If you use LR, I would always, 100% of the time, without fail, merge pictures.

There are shadows in the foreground that are brighter on the over exposed photos, but there are highlights in the backround that are more defined on the under exposed photos.

As far as filters go... I use them all the time. As long as my subject is not moving, the 5-AEB takes care of the exposure, and means less aggressive gradient filters.

It does mean longer exposures, but... LR is amazing, and can figure a lot of the cloud movement out with DeGhosting... I prefer a little motion though, because it adds a "softness" to the clouds, which are "soft" in appearance anyway.

like I said, I had two cents, there they are lol... maybe more like 5 cents though.
Well look this basically comes down to opinion and artistic choice. It’s ok to have a different opinion than mine I assumed when I said it there would be other opinions and neither of us are wrong or right.

There are just a couple of technical points here though.

My advise to use 2 but no more than 3 photos for HDR is a technical matter not an artistic matter. DJIs AEB only allows .7 stop increments so with a 5 photo AEB you get -1.4, -0.7, 0,+0.7, and +1.4 exposures. Adobe specifically says this is pointless and subjects your photos to unwanted artifacts and ghosting.

This is from Adobe’s Manual on Lightroom.


“Create HDRs
How many photos are required to process a quality HDR merge?
Read these guidance notes and tips by Rikk Flohr (Software Quality Engineer for Lightroom ecosystem of apps, Adobe).
HDR photos are used to capture scenes having a large dynamic range. However, using more number of photos can lead to unwanted artifacts from poor alignment or ghosting. For optimal HDR merge, the aim is to capture photos in a manner that each part of the scene is well-exposed, that is neither blown-out nor under-exposed in at least one of the photos.
Use the following guidelines to identify how many photos work best for your case:
  • If your HDR bracketing is less than 3.0 stops in total separation (-1.5, 0, +1.5), use only the darkest and brightest exposures to generate an HDR. Capturing the middle exposure, or zero exposure, not necessary for generating a quality exposure blend in such cases. If you exceed the 3-stop separation between the darkest and the brightest exposures, an additional exposure offset becomes necessary to process a good quality HDR photo.
See the chart below to quickly determine the number of photos required for processing a quality HDR merge
Camera Bracket settingsOptimum number of exposures for merging photos to HDR
-1.5 to +1.52
-3.0 to +3.03
-4.5 to +4.54
-6.0 to +6.05
End quote”

So a photo with an exposure that is less than 3 stops from another photo is only introducing unwanted artifacts and does more harm than good. Don’t take my word for it...take Adobe’s.

The technology is such that yes you can still get pretty good images from these 5 exposures but at best Adobe is smart enough to discard that extra information and you’ve only wasted time having Adobe figure out what photos to discard and at worst you introduce unwanted artifacts into the photo.

I believe DJI’s metadata will only register -3 to +3 stops so at most you could manually take three exposures -3,0,+3 and merge those in Lightroom hence where the at most three photos comes from. Lightroom looks at the exposure value in the metadata to merge photos and the exposure values have to be equidistant from each other or Lightroom will not merge them. To be clear you couldn’t use the AEB function to do this.

Next the faster your shutter speed the sharper your image. An ND filter will restrict the amount of light to your camera forcing a slower shutter or increased ISO both of which reduce your sharpness on the entire image not just the clouds. What you really want is a graduated filter that is specifically for reducing the exposure of one part of the image without reducing the shutter speed. There are lots of ways to easily soften, blur, or reduce the sharpness of areas of the image in post but getting a soft photo to become sharp is an arduous process if it can be done at all.

You know your way around Lightroom and photoshop enough that you could even replace the sky completely with a different photo.
 
There is no need to merge the photos unless you need the high dynamic range. For most of the time, I just use one picture.

Merging photos in LR has it's down side. Two examples :

These are 100% crops of the merged photos produced by photoshop's HDR function ( LR is the same I assume ) and that produced by the Aurora HDR software. In the picture produced by PS HDR, there are some artifacts surrounding the highlight areas :

View attachment 110121

Another 100% crop of the same picture. Some of the light trails in the PS HDR photo are hollow :

View attachment 110122
Ah @boblui we agree on something! That’s kinda nice isn’t it ?
 
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These are 100% crops of the merged photos produced by photoshop's HDR function ( LR is the same I assume )
Depends on which HDR method you are using in Photoshop. If you use Camera Raw before opening in photoshop it is the same as Lightroom but if you use HDR Pro in Photoshop after you’ve already opened the photos in photoshop then it’s a different process.
 
As far as filters go... I use them all the time. As long as my subject is not moving, the 5-AEB takes care of the exposure, and means less aggressive gradient filters.
Photography is all about light.
If you are shooting stills, it's certainly not helping to prevent most of the light getting to the sensor with an ND filter.
 
Well look this basically comes down to opinion and artistic choice. It’s ok to have a different opinion than mine I assumed when I said it there would be other opinions and neither of us are wrong or right.

There are just a couple of technical points here though.

My advise to use 2 but no more than 3 photos for HDR is a technical matter not an artistic matter. DJIs AEB only allows .7 stop increments so with a 5 photo AEB you get -1.4, -0.7, 0,+0.7, and +1.4 exposures. Adobe specifically says this is pointless and subjects your photos to unwanted artifacts and ghosting.

This is from Adobe’s Manual on Lightroom.


“Create HDRs
How many photos are required to process a quality HDR merge?
Read these guidance notes and tips by Rikk Flohr (Software Quality Engineer for Lightroom ecosystem of apps, Adobe).
HDR photos are used to capture scenes having a large dynamic range. However, using more number of photos can lead to unwanted artifacts from poor alignment or ghosting. For optimal HDR merge, the aim is to capture photos in a manner that each part of the scene is well-exposed, that is neither blown-out nor under-exposed in at least one of the photos.
Use the following guidelines to identify how many photos work best for your case:
  • If your HDR bracketing is less than 3.0 stops in total separation (-1.5, 0, +1.5), use only the darkest and brightest exposures to generate an HDR. Capturing the middle exposure, or zero exposure, not necessary for generating a quality exposure blend in such cases. If you exceed the 3-stop separation between the darkest and the brightest exposures, an additional exposure offset becomes necessary to process a good quality HDR photo.
See the chart below to quickly determine the number of photos required for processing a quality HDR merge
Camera Bracket settingsOptimum number of exposures for merging photos to HDR
-1.5 to +1.52
-3.0 to +3.03
-4.5 to +4.54
-6.0 to +6.05
End quote”

So a photo with an exposure that is less than 3 stops from another photo is only introducing unwanted artifacts and does more harm than good. Don’t take my word for it...take Adobe’s.

The technology is such that yes you can still get pretty good images from these 5 exposures but at best Adobe is smart enough to discard that extra information and you’ve only wasted time having Adobe figure out what photos to discard and at worst you introduce unwanted artifacts into the photo.

I believe DJI’s metadata will only register -3 to +3 stops so at most you could manually take three exposures -3,0,+3 and merge those in Lightroom hence where the at most three photos comes from. Lightroom looks at the exposure value in the metadata to merge photos and the exposure values have to be equidistant from each other or Lightroom will not merge them. To be clear you couldn’t use the AEB function to do this.

Next the faster your shutter speed the sharper your image. An ND filter will restrict the amount of light to your camera forcing a slower shutter or increased ISO both of which reduce your sharpness on the entire image not just the clouds. What you really want is a graduated filter that is specifically for reducing the exposure of one part of the image without reducing the shutter speed. There are lots of ways to easily soften, blur, or reduce the sharpness of areas of the image in post but getting a soft photo to become sharp is an arduous process if it can be done at all.

You know your way around Lightroom and photoshop enough that you could even replace the sky completely with a different photo.
I love the information...

I didn't realize the stops were so close.
meh.

it feels pointless now, i mean it is, but i feel like meh.



still stand behind my sunglasses for my drone statement though lol. and here's how I get my own graduated filter...

take the gimbal all the way up, barely under exposed, 5 (now going to be 3) AEB, pan until I've got the "top" of my pano, then lower the gimbal, but also lower the shutter speed... not by a lot, but enough to give me brighter shadows. run the pan again.

i feel like 1/30 vs 1/120 is more a valid argument for something that doesn't have to process the imagery the way the FC does.
even if i am taking a pano and taking 1/1000 AEBs, there is still a processing delay not noticed on things like DSLRs.

also, shooting timelapes with the filter allows for softer movement, again, of the weather anyway. i know why you wouldn't want them, but for what i do... i do (want filters) lol.





brett, i took your advice on Resolve and just finished grading about 6 clips in 30 minutes, something that would have taken hours in LR. so i much appreciate your input and dont want you to take this as an insult or offensive in any way.
like you said, we are allowed to have differing opinions on things.

have a great night
 
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Photography is all about light.
If you are shooting stills, it's certainly not helping to prevent most of the light getting to the sensor with an ND filter.
i understand, but it is also about perspective and contrast.

i can darken or lighten in post, but i can not add natural movement juxtaposed against something stationary the way that barely long exposures can.

its just my style of shooting i guess. but you are not wrong either.

photography is ALL about light... perspective, and contrast lol... ?
 
still stand behind my sunglasses for my drone statement though lol. and here's how I get my own graduated filter...

take the gimbal all the way up, barely under exposed, 5 (now going to be 3) AEB, pan until I've got the "top" of my pano, then lower the gimbal, but also lower the shutter speed... not by a lot, but enough to give me brighter shadows. run the pan again.

i feel like 1/30 vs 1/120 is more a valid argument for something that doesn't have to process the imagery the way the FC does.
even if i am taking a pano and taking 1/1000 AEBs, there is still a processing delay not noticed on things like DSLRs
Sorry I don’t quite understand what what you mean by this.

also, shooting timelapes with the filter allows for softer movement, again, of the weather anyway. i know why you wouldn't want them, but for what i do... i do (want filters) lol.
Timelapse is actually video and the reasons for using ND filters with video are well established. That is different. Carry on.


brett, i took your advice on Resolve and just finished grading about 6 clips in 30 minutes, something that would have taken hours in LR. so i much appreciate your input and dont want you to take this as an insult or offensive in any way.
like you said, we are allowed to have differing opinions on things.
I didn’t take it as an insult in any way! We are just talking and discussing.

Was glad to help open your eyes then and I am glad to help open your eyes now ?
 
i understand, but it is also about perspective and contrast.

i can darken or lighten in post, but i can not add natural movement juxtaposed against something stationary the way that barely long exposures can.

its just my style of shooting i guess. but you are not wrong either.

photography is ALL about light... perspective, and contrast lol... ?
You are pushing it but that’s true. You are pushing the technical vs artistic boundary but still inside the line. Just barely though lol
 
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Sorry I don’t quite understand what what you mean by this.


Timelapse is actually video and the reasons for using ND filters with video are well established. That is different. Carry on.



I didn’t take it as an insult in any way! We are just talking and discussing.

Was glad to help open your eyes then and I am glad to help open your eyes now ?
So what I mean by this.

Start with the sun dead center in the cross hairs (if you use them lol, I recommend it, especially for landing and panos).
Tilt the gimbal to +24° (the most upward tilt possible on my MA2). Now pan left or right, your choice, until you are at your desired "edge" but leave room for cropping. Take your pictures.
SO FAR THIS IS TYPICAL PANO SET UP... as I'm sure you noticed. Now here's where I switch things up...
When you have gone from left to right or right to left (edge to edge at +24° tilt), lower the gimbal until the cross hair bottom is on the horizon. This keeps some sky, and adds some foreground. Lower the shutter speed, increasing exposure, and take the same set of pictures from edge to edge.

When I stitch them I seem to not need a graduated filter on some. Just increase shadows l and lowering highlights does enough......... Sometimes lol.
 
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i understand, but it is also about perspective and contrast.

i can darken or lighten in post, but i can not add natural movement juxtaposed against something stationary the way that barely long exposures can.

its just my style of shooting i guess. but you are not wrong either.

photography is ALL about light... perspective, and contrast lol... ?
You know I’ve changed my mind on this. You’ve shown you understand the fundamentals and motion blur is an established, if rare tool in the photography tool kit so never mind it is soundly within your artistic license. We just hear people try to defend their use of ND filters for nonsensical reasons so often here it’s easy to forget there are actual valid reasons to use them.
 
So what I mean by this.

Start with the sun dead center in the cross hairs (if you use them lol, I recommend it, especially for landing and panos).
Tilt the gimbal to +24° (the most upward tilt possible on my MA2). Now pan left or right, your choice, until you are at your desired "edge" but leave room for cropping. Take your pictures.
SO FAR THIS IS TYPICAL PANO SET UP... as I'm sure you noticed. Now here's where I switch things up...
When you have gone from left to right or right to left (edge to edge at +24° tilt), lower the gimbal until the cross hair bottom is on the horizon. This keeps some sky, and adds some foreground. Lower the shutter speed, increasing exposure, and take the same set of pictures from edge to edge.

When I stitch them I seem to not need a graduated filter on some. Just increase shadows l and lowering highlights does enough......... Sometimes lol.
That’s fine as long as you don’t have any blending issues when you merge in Lightroom.

When I said graduated filters I meant like physical graduated filters.

 
I mean... So I have 2 cents to pitch in...

Every single one of my panoramas is a 5-AEB merged picture. Some are 35 pictures, all the way up to 125 pictures.



@RonanCork If you use LR, I would always, 100% of the time, without fail, merge pictures.

There are shadows in the foreground that are brighter on the over exposed photos, but there are highlights in the backround that are more defined on the under exposed photos.

As far as filters go... I use them all the time. As long as my subject is not moving, the 5-AEB takes care of the exposure, and means less aggressive gradient filters.

It does mean longer exposures, but... LR is amazing, and can figure a lot of the cloud movement out with DeGhosting... I prefer a little motion though, because it adds a "softness" to the clouds, which are "soft" in appearance anyway.

like I said, I had two cents, there they are lol... maybe more like 5 cents though.




View attachment 110113
Are theSe “manual” panoramas?.I would love to shoot 5 AEB full panos, but I have a hard time shooting more than three horizontal. Maybe four. If i try shooting a row above or below, i lose track of the control points. Perhaps my aged brain is the problem.?
 
Are theSe “manual” panoramas?.I would love to shoot 5 AEB full panos, but I have a hard time shooting more than three horizontal. Maybe four. If i try shooting a row above or below, i lose track of the control points. Perhaps my aged brain is the problem.?
Yes they are.

And if you use the cross hairs it makes life a bit easier.

Here's another way...

Find a spot on the horizon that is easily defined (water tower, antenna, building, hill) then center that. Gimbal up, take first picture then pan left or right and overlap your frames. Count how many you take, then recenter and go the other way doing the same thing.
Now drop gimbal and do it all over again.

Throw it in your stitching program of choice and, VOILA!
 

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