Paramotors vs drones

[MAvic_South_Oz]

I had a video come up on my recommended, had a look.
This guy took his paramotor up to 17,500' and I was thinking what the heck rules do these large parasail type motor propelled aircraft have to follow ??!!

Looking about, I found rules with nothing mentioned about altitude limits, mostly separation from clouds.

Part 103 rules and registration etc

So, is a much larger aircraft like this able to get away without 400', 1000' or whatever altitude limits because someone is sitting in a pilots seat ?
Further, there are no requirements to be licensed at all to fly these !!
Just aircraft registration (airman certification ?) and certification of the aircraft.

I guess VLOS is irrelevant, having someone in the pilots seat to avoid other aircraft is the big difference, just kind of astounding that there seems to be very little need for this type of aircraft to abide by more stringent rules.

Any similar paramotor type pilots out there that can share some insights / experiences ?
Thoughts from anyone are welcome too.

I wasn't going to post the video, but figure he says it was all legal / legit, so no foul I guess . . .

 

[BigAl07]

There is a HUGE difference between siting in the seat and flying in such a way as to stay alive and flying from the ground 3 miles away and hoping for the best.

 

[Jagerbomb52]

Its a little harder here in Canada to fly one of those things. Not something I would be jumping into but then again if I was 40 years younger I just might LOL
Here is a link if you want to read what it takes to be certified to fly one of those here.

Paramotor Canada: Do Canadians need a license to fly a paramotor?

In paramotor Canada we look at what you need to do to obtain a pilot permit in Canada. And we find out whether you can fly there without a license!

paramotorplanet.com

 

[Cymruflyer]

There is a HUGE difference between siting in the seat and flying in such a way as to stay alive and flying from the ground 3 miles away and hoping for the best.

Not forgettng the size of a paramotor, compared to a drone. What would you rather be looking out for in the sky, if you were a pilot, a drone or a paramotor?

 

[BigAl07]

Not forgettng the size of a paramotor, compared to a drone. What would you rather be looking out for in the sky, if you were a pilot, a drone or a paramotor?

Absolutely PARAMOTOR

 

[Jagerbomb52]

Notice when he landed there was no one their to welcome him back. LOL they where out shopping spending the insurance money already

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

There is a HUGE difference between siting in the seat and flying in such a way as to stay alive and flying from the ground 3 miles away and hoping for the best.

Agreed, the will to survive is a big safety feature.
The cloud separation rules are obviously aimed at giving visibility from the paramotor for situational awareness, and for other aircraft to have a decent view of them.

I wondered too though, the noise of his motor right behind his head would easily eliminate the ability hear any sort of other aircraft engine or turbine sound approaching, leaving just visual means of the surrounding airspace.
Mucking about making YouTube content sure takes your mind off keeping a good watch.

 

[Cymruflyer]

Agreed, the will to survive is a big safety feature.
The cloud separation rules are obviously aimed at giving visibility from the paramotor for situational awareness, and for other aircraft to have a decent view of them.

I wondered too though, the noise of his motor right behind his head would easily eliminate the ability hear any sort of other aircraft engine or turbine sound approaching, leaving just visual means of the surrounding airspace.
Mucking about making YouTube content sure takes your mind off keeping a good watch.

Any aircraft you fly through the sky in, whether this or a sailplane (it is a bit noisy even in a sailplane, from wind and the creaking of the airframe) or a Cessna, you will never hear other aircraft approaching. Also, engines are loud, all of them, and a safety conscious pilot will be flying with a good headset to cut down a great deal on that engine noise and to be able to clearly hear their radio. Along the same line, a good safety conscious pilot will be, like all pilots are taught, be keeping a constant and good look out all around them for other aircraft.

 

[Zbip57]

Paramotor pilots can't see or hear what's coming up behind them. They should be required to strap a visual observer to their backsides.

Any aircraft you fly through the sky in, whether this or a sailplane (it is a bit noisy even in a sailplane, from wind and the creaking of the airframe) or a Cessna, you will never hear other aircraft approaching. [...]
[...] a good safety conscious pilot will, like all pilots are taught, be keeping a constant and good look out all around them for other aircraft.

Like in this example? Yikes!

Watch him swivel his head from side to side, keeping "a constant and good look out".

Count how many times he checks to see what's coming from behind. [Hint: It's zero. Not that it makes any difference...]

 

[Cymruflyer]

Paramotor pilots can't see or hear what's coming up behind them. They should be required to strap a visual observer to their backsides.


Like in this example? Yikes!

Watch him swivel his head from side to side, keeping "a constant and good look out".

Count how many times he checks to see what's coming from behind. [Hint: It's zero. Not that it makes any difference...]

Of course they can see behind them, they just need to turn their heads. That is exactly why I stated this clearly....
"a good safety conscious pilot will, like all pilots are taught, be keeping a constant and good look out all around them"

As with drivers, you get taught how to drive safely, then you see many doing that, but you also see a lot of A$$holes driving very badly and dangerously. Many times, drivers move into the next lane without checking their mirrors, some are close calls, and some are tragic accidents. There are rules and laws but that's where it ends.

Read what I said again, once a new pilot is cut loose, they are responsible for their own actions. They may continue to go on and fly in a safe manner or they will forget some of what they have been taught to do and fly in an unsafe manner, no matter what they fly, be it that trike, a Paramotor or a Cessna 172. That is why I used words like Good and Safety Conscious, to describe the pilot.

There have been plenty of cases of midair collisions because pilots were not keeping a good lookout. There are numerous incidents where a low wing aircraft has descended and landed on a high wing aircraft in front and below it, while on finals.

In the example you showed, clearly the fixed wing pilot was not keeping a safe lookout. That flexwing aircraft should have been easy to spot, if the fixed wing pilot was looking, since it was above the horizon and easy to see in the open sky. You can see that is was more difficult for the flexwing pilot to see the other aircraft because it was blending into the horizon as it came towards him. Thankfully he was looking.

 

[Zbip57]

Of course they can see behind them, they just need to turn their heads.

Which is why I suggested counting how many times the guy in that video turns around to check what's behind him. Never.

And even though he often does turn his head in several directions, including the direction of the approaching Cessna, he still fails to spot the approaching Cessna.

Read what I said again, [...] That is why I used words like Good and Safety Conscious, to describe the pilot.

So you're saying only a "Good and Safety Conscious" pilot would have spotted the impending collision, and evidently neither the Cessna pilot nor the Trike pilot are thus sufficiently good or safety conscious?

There have been plenty of cases of midair collisions because pilots were not keeping a good lookout. There are numerous incidents where a low wing aircraft has descended and landed on a high wing aircraft in front and below it, while on finals.

Even a good and safety conscious pilot can fail to spot conflicting traffic if it's hidden in the blind spots you describe.

In the example you showed, clearly the fixed wing pilot was not keeping a safe lookout. That flexwing aircraft should have been easy to spot, if the fixed wing pilot was looking, since it was above the horizon and easy to see in the open sky. You can see that is was more difficult for the flexwing pilot to see the other aircraft because it was blending into the horizon as it came towards him. Thankfully he was looking.

Legally, the traffic approaching from the right has the right of way. In this scenario the flexwing pilot is obliged to give way. Still, obviously the Cessna pilot never even saw him.

Everyone is always quick to point out that there's a big difference between standing on the ground and flying a drone versus having "skin in the game" when you're actually sitting in the aircraft. Drones are much harder to spot because they're so small, even though airline pilots report seeing them all the time. Something as big as a paraglider presents less of a danger because they're much easier to spot in the air. And the "good and safety conscious" pilot of a manned aircraft is inherently safer than a drone pilot, because the manned pilot is constantly vigilant and looking all around whereas an FPV pilot is restricted by the narrow viewing angle of his onboard camera and can't see what's behind him.

In the ideal world, all of that might be true. But the video amply demonstrates that's not always the case.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

In the ideal world, all of that might be true. But the video amply demonstrates that's not always the case.

And in a % of those cases, it might be close enough for an impact to happen.
How big a % ? Who's to even take a guess, it's like a gamble trying to pick 50% or 10% or whatever.

In the video you posted wow, yeah they usually call a few hundred metres a close call.
That would have taken maybe 10m or so more alt from the airplane, or 10m less alt for the motorised hang glider and it would have been very nasty, probably 2 lost aircraft.

 

[Cymruflyer]

@Zbip57
Nobody has ever stated that we fly in an ideal world. Much of what you stated we already know and understand. As for the trike pilot, he did see the fixed wing and did take action, you can see and hear that he put nose up and add full throttle. As I mentioned, being on the horizon, it is very difficult to sometimes see an approaching aircraft, as was the case here. I was stating what a good pilot should be doing not what all pilots always do.

We know there are good drone flyers here and we also know that there are some not so good flyers on here. We don't live in a perfect world and no one has stated that. As long as one pilot spots another aircraft and can avoid a collision, great and pilots are able to spot something else in the sky around them. A drone flyer cannot spot anything around them when flying BLOS, other than what the camera can show them, we all know that.

But we are way off track here, the discussion was about the legality of flying a Paramotor at such altitude. Whether it's a paraglider or an ultralight, all manned flying machines have to abide by the same aviation laws. Some people on here sometimes think that manned aircraft are not allowed to fly below 500ft, and that is not the case (of course depending on where they are, so no point in going into a discussion about that) I think we have beat this one far enough.

 

[NG Wildman]

Tons of good info here.
The guy in the paramotor did a stupid thing...he was not prepared for the cold nor the thinner air...JUST PLAIN STUPID !!!
The applicable difference for a drone pilot and being in a manned aircraft for me in this instance is that you can see much farther when airborne, your head should be on a swivel....and you know your distance from potential strikes etc.
Let's say you can avoid a strike in the air at 200 feet while flying a drone. If you are skirting the edge of VLOS and there is something else up in the air and just out of your VLOS, you run the risk of a collision. And that's besides the fact that you don't always know which way your drone is pointing in relation to your position on the ground (the map is not always up nor accurate). Just my 2 cents worth. The bottom line is that you are responsible for the safe operation of your chosen aircraft, and if you have an accident; every little rule will come in to play.

 

[Zbip57]

The bottom line is that you are responsible for the safe operation of your chosen aircraft, and if you have an accident; every little rule will come in to play.

And that applies to sub-250 micro-drones. There are plenty of detailed regulations applying to 250g-25kg "Small" remotely piloted aircraft here in Canada (max height AGL, distance from airports, etc, etc), but sub-250 gram "micro" RPA are exempt from those.

The Cardinal Rule that does apply equally to sub-250g is the "don't be stupid rule", which prohibits negligent or reckless flying that puts, or "is likely to" put, manned aviation or people on the ground at risk. And that rule covers a lot of ground.

YOU are always held responsible, even with sub-250g drones.

 

[eEridani]

In piloted fight, you fly at 500 foot intervals based on compass. Since these guys were flying in near opposite directions, one of them wasn't obeying establish rules.

 

[Capt KO]

Gave me chills

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Gave me chills

The near miss video post #9 ?
I wondered if that would have been reported by the other larger aircraft (assuming they saw the paramotor, likely), or even the Paramotor pilot.
Technically it should be by both I would think.

Note the near miss video in post 9 was from nearly a decade ago.
And what would be the result of any investigation of that ?
Neither pilot was really at fault, how can you judge that objectively ?
I guess if blame were to be laid, it should go at the paramotor pilot, based on his comments in the YT descpription . . .

"Just setting up to do a PFL with engine off when an aircraft came towards me at same hight from about 90 degrees off. Edit add Info: both aircraft are at 2000 feet give or take a few feet, The Location is Glidden Farm clearly shown on the chart, yes he had right of way as he was on the right. I didn't see the aircraft until the last second and what I have learnt from this is to keep a better lookout and maybe not fly at 1000 1500 or 2000 feet as this seems to be the main cruising level for GA aircraft."

The para pilot near miss was at least not holding a selfie stick to film himself, and seemed to be looking around a little more than the pilot in the first video.
This video was posted Sept 2021, so probably shot around then.

 

[Cymruflyer]

The near miss video post #9 ?
I wondered if that would have been reported by the other larger aircraft (assuming they saw the paramotor, likely), or even the Paramotor pilot.
Technically it should be by both I would think.

Note the near miss video in post 9 was from nearly a decade ago.
And what would be the result of any investigation of that ?
Neither pilot was really at fault, how can you judge that objectively ?
I guess if blame were to be laid, it should go at the paramotor pilot, based on his comments in the YT descpription . . .

"Just setting up to do a PFL with engine off when an aircraft came towards me at same hight from about 90 degrees off. Edit add Info: both aircraft are at 2000 feet give or take a few feet, The Location is Glidden Farm clearly shown on the chart, yes he had right of way as he was on the right. I didn't see the aircraft until the last second and what I have learnt from this is to keep a better lookout and maybe not fly at 1000 1500 or 2000 feet as this seems to be the main cruising level for GA aircraft."

The para pilot near miss was at least not holding a selfie stick to film himself, and seemed to be looking around a little more than the pilot in the first video.
This video was posted Sept 2021, so probably shot around then.

What paramotor pilot are you speaking of? I did not see a near miss with a paramotor pilot. The paramotor video was the guy flying at 17,000 plus feet. The close call was with the trike pilot and the high wing aircraft that approached from his starboard side. Have I missed another video or are you getting your aircraft type mixed up?

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

What paramotor pilot are you speaking of? I did not see a near miss with a paramotor pilot. The paramotor video was the guy flying at 17,000 plus feet. The close call was with the trike pilot and the high wing aircraft that approached from his starboard side. Have I missed another video or are you getting your aircraft type mixed up?

Yes, if post #9 as mentioned in my post is a trike pilot, that's the one I was referring to.
There are only 1 page thus far, and 2 videos.

Whatever they are flying, any type of glider or motorised wing type aircraft like that is going to mix very poorly with a regular light aircraft or heli.