Range tests and the law...

[fjc]

So as we all know, there are tons of range test videos on youtube for all the DJI drones. Not sure about international laws regarding drones but I would imagine they're all pretty close in terms of pilot operations and regulations. For instance here in Canada, having obtained your Basic Drone Pilot License from Transport Canada, all drones must be flown at all times with VLOS . So, my question of course would be, all these people posting their videos of flying 1-2-3-4-10 kilometers in distance, I know for my part once I'm out about 300 meters I can no longer see the drone (Mavic Mini and Mavic Air2) So is everyone breaking the law? I've only ever come across one youtube range test video where there is a "spotter" or Pilot assistant to keep a watch on the drone as it flies out of VLOS from the pilot. So what's the point of testing how far it can go, if every time you do that you break the law and subject to a huge fine and possibly with a license suspension thrown in.Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 103366]

My assumption is that they think the chances of being caught are slim, though, as you have noted, there may be different rules in different places so they may not be offending. Plus, some of the videos may have been shot when rules were different.
That said, I have read that in the US the FAA have sometimes brought prosecutions or interviewed pilots based on video published by the offender, whether that is true or false I do not know.
Incidentally, what is happening about that aerobatic display over Chicago? and the 'idiot'' that appears to nearly fly into the display teams flight path?
I was also 'following' one recently shot video on youtube, it was a complaint about a Mavic mini doing a fly away. Right from the start everything about that flight was
a) against virtually all the UK's CAA rules and
b) in high winds.
The real gem was a shot from the recovered drone with the drone flying along a street, below roof top level, and then straight at someone's upstairs window with that someone in the window and retreating from view. I think that shot was post recovery of the drone from the street side tree into which it had eventually crashed, if so the shot was taken with the pilot in command, which was/is bad enough but to then publish the shot!!!!!!!!
The video disappeared shortly after someone pointed out some of the probable infingements, I found that quite funny.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

So as we all know, there are tons of range test videos on youtube for all the DJI drones. Not sure about international laws regarding drones but I would imagine they're all pretty close in terms of pilot operations and regulations. For instance here in Canada, having obtained your Basic Drone Pilot License from Transport Canada, all drones must be flown at all times with VLOS . So, my question of course would be, all these people posting their videos of flying 1-2-3-4-10 kilometers in distance, I know for my part once I'm out about 300 meters I can no longer see the drone (Mavic Mini and Mavic Air2) So is everyone breaking the law? I've only ever come across one youtube range test video where there is a "spotter" or Pilot assistant to keep a watch on the drone as it flies out of VLOS from the pilot. So what's the point of testing how far it can go, if every time you do that you break the law and subject to a huge fine and possibly with a license suspension thrown in.Thoughts?

The reality is this since you have determined that at 300 meters you can no longer see it, Should you be fined if you go 350 meters and be suspended or do you want a little lee way and how much do you want.

What about if you have some flashing lights , a whole set of them , its all a gray area but most of us dont want it to be black and white .

There will always be those that test the limits of the drone as they should . it means that someone else took the risk.
I know that with my lights on on I can see them flashing at 2500 ft , and thank fully i know the signal can hold because of someone that tested there drone for me.

Tester usually have Optimum conditions to test in. I know I do. We Test in the Pouring rain how far the Drone can go, and in the heavy snow storm and in Hail and Heavy winds. We take the Risk because we have excellent conditions to do so and it benefits others greatly.

We all drive pass the speed limits even though they our signs posted , Flying your drone should be no different , if the FAA wants to fine the flight they will but as of now that not happening but it could in the future .

I keep asking myself our the people at Amazon going to sit on top of the building using super ZOOM binoculars to watch the drone make a delivery and what kind of contraption will they use to see it land. lolllll

At some point you have to realize that this is a Gray area and should remain gray as everyone has a different coloring book.. and unless you do a complete investigation how would you know about spotters, lights, weather conditions , but as testers we push the limits and take a calculated risk.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in and out of the Storm.

 

[Deleted member 103366]

Phantomrain, a question, would using binoculars be legal in the US? I ask because it is unaided VLOS in the UK.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

Phantomrain, a question, would using binoculars be legal in the US? I ask because it is unaided VLOS in the UK.

No , but there is nothing wrong with a Spotter having binoculars to help them see the trip back or to use them but not rely on as a means of VLOS.
We use a spotter in some severe snow conditions as VLOS is not even close to 500 ft .

When it comes to flying past VLOS the biggest threat and the reason why we dont fly past VLOS it is the threat of not seeing birds.
Birds remain the biggest threat and is the best reason for not flying past VLOS as you just cant see them and those sea gulls dont like drones.

 

[Deleted member 103366]

Thanks

 

[PhantomFandom]

So as we all know, there are tons of range test videos on youtube for all the DJI drones. Not sure about international laws regarding drones but I would imagine they're all pretty close in terms of pilot operations and regulations. For instance here in Canada, having obtained your Basic Drone Pilot License from Transport Canada, all drones must be flown at all times with VLOS . So, my question of course would be, all these people posting their videos of flying 1-2-3-4-10 kilometers in distance, I know for my part once I'm out about 300 meters I can no longer see the drone (Mavic Mini and Mavic Air2) So is everyone breaking the law? I've only ever come across one youtube range test video where there is a "spotter" or Pilot assistant to keep a watch on the drone as it flies out of VLOS from the pilot. So what's the point of testing how far it can go, if every time you do that you break the law and subject to a huge fine and possibly with a license suspension thrown in.Thoughts?

Here in the USA it is illegal to fly beyond VLOS and I have seen many of the YT videos you described. Yes they could have visual observers. Yes they could have strobes. However in the YT videos it is often obvious that they do not, and are flagrantly breaking the law.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

Here in the USA it is illegal to fly beyond VLOS and I have seen many of the YT videos you described. Yes they could have visual observers. Yes they could have strobes. However in the YT videos it is often obvious that they do not, and are flagrantly breaking the law.

Here is the Problem : SPOTTERS when they opened that up , it really became very subjective as there is not law stating that you have to describe spotters, who they are what age they our , if they have been drinking a beer. What seems obvious is not at all. Not to mention how old the youtube video is , This goes for those that videos showing how high and far they went.

im not a fan of its obvious .

 

[PhantomFandom]

Should you be fined if you go 350 meters and be suspended or do you want a little lee way and how much do you want.

That is completely different than a range test where the intent is to fly as far as possible from the start, knowing full well that it is illegal to do so.

What about if you have some flashing lights , a whole set of them , its all a gray area but most of us dont want it to be black and white .

Strobes will help a bit but only if you have at least two strobes of different colors so that you can tell the orientation of the drone. It helps for a little bit of additional distance but not much. The laws in the USA say that you must not only be able to see the drone but also see its orientation.
It is not gray area at all. The regulations (these regulations at least, not all of them) are very clear and very black and white.

Tester usually have Optimum conditions to test in.

Conditions do not matter if you are going beyond VLOS. The regulations make no allowance for conditions. You either have VLOS or you don't.

We all drive pass the speed limits even though they our signs posted , Flying your drone should be no different ,

First of all don't make assumptions for "all of us". Yes most people do drive beyond the speed limit but not everyone does. The situation is the same in both cases. It is illegal in both cases. It is black and white in both cases.
If you wish to break the law then do so at your own risk, but don't justify it by saying conditions were perfect. If you decide to drive at 100 MPH on the freeway where the speed limit is 60, are you justified because you know your automobile is in perfect condition and there was no one else on the road? The police officer who pulls you over won't care about any of that.

I keep asking myself our the people at Amazon going to sit on top of the building using super ZOOM binoculars to watch the drone make a delivery and what kind of contraption will they use to see it land. lolllll

That is completely different and also why Amazon still does not deliver packages via drone. The regulations do not allow them to fly beyond VLOS. They (and other companies like UPS and Wing) are going through great pain, work, expense, and time to work on systems which will get a waiver from the FAA so they can legally fly in that manner beyond VLOS. They don't just decide it's OK to do so and violate the regualtions.

At some point you have to realize that this is a Gray area and should remain gray as everyone has a different coloring book

Once again, it is not at all gray. The regulations are quite clear in this area. If you decide to not follow them that is your decision.

 

[PhantomFandom]

Here is the Problem : SPOTTERS when they opened that up , it really became very subjective as there is not law stating that you have to describe spotters,

While true that they "could have" spotters and are not required to mention that, the law does say that the PIC must be in communication with the VO at all times when the PIC cannot see the craft. This part is obvious because no such communication takes place.

Not to mention how old the youtube video is ,

If you see arange test for a MA2 then you pretty much know how old the video is...not very. Any current DJI model was made after the current regulations regarding VLOS.

 

[Johnmcl7]

At some point you have to realize that this is a Gray area and should remain gray as everyone has a different coloring book.. and unless you do a complete investigation how would you know about spotters, lights, weather conditions , but as testers we push the limits and take a calculated risk.

If we were talking about people around the 300-500m range then fair enough it's a gray area but we're talking about people flying several kilometres away which is very clearly illegal. We even have a range leaderboard with plenty of examples of such flights:

Official Mavic 2 Range Leaderboard

In Memory of Steve William Carr. (beanbubba) THE FOLLOWING RANGE COMPETITION INFORMATION AND FORMAT IS BASED ON FEEDBACK FROM MANY FOLKS WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN THIS. I ENCOURAGE DEBATE AND OPINIONS BUT BE SURE TO CONFORM TO THE FORUM GUIDELINES. TROLLS WILL BE REPORTED. Community Rules...

mavicpilots.com

Comparing to speed limits makes no sense because people are not breaking the speed limits by anything like the margin they're breaking the VLOS rules and I'm sure in most countries like here you're quickly into bans and worse for exceeding the speed limit by any margin.

I don't break the VLOS rules although I don't break the speed limit either.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

If we were talking about people around the 300-500m range then fair enough it's a gray area but we're talking about people flying several kilometres away which is very clearly illegal. We even have a range leaderboard with plenty of examples of such flights:

Official Mavic 2 Range Leaderboard

In Memory of Steve William Carr. (beanbubba) THE FOLLOWING RANGE COMPETITION INFORMATION AND FORMAT IS BASED ON FEEDBACK FROM MANY FOLKS WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN THIS. I ENCOURAGE DEBATE AND OPINIONS BUT BE SURE TO CONFORM TO THE FORUM GUIDELINES. TROLLS WILL BE REPORTED. Community Rules...

mavicpilots.com

Comparing to speed limits makes no sense because people are not breaking the speed limits by anything like the margin they're breaking the VLOS rules and I'm sure in most countries like here you're quickly into bans and worse for exceeding the speed limit by any margin.

I don't break the VLOS rules although I don't break the speed limit either.

lol Im pretty sure when im going 140 mph im breaking the speed by big margin, I also do so knowing the risk and the fine.
Tester our also aware of the risk and the fine .

But for any of that to happen there has to be an incident where the FAA looks into it. Common sense is king of the rules.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

Strobes help a little bit. lol Nothing is obvious. Each one of us has our own limits, and the only reason why we dont fly past VLOS is the birds.
I have no idea how far it can be seen, I have to wait for a Tester to let me know.


I dont think that the Extended Battery Pack just for the Spot light were obvious .



Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in and out of the Storm
Coal

 

[JC_Wang]

Strobes help a little bit. lol Nothing is obvious. Each one of us has our own limits, and the only reason why we dont fly past VLOS is the birds.
I have no idea how far it can be seen, I have to wait for a Tester to let me know.

View attachment 103459
I dont think that the Extended Battery Pack just for the Spot light were obvious .

View attachment 103463

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in and out of the Storm
Coal

Well, this grandpa can fly his Air 2 up to 4,045 ft. Yes, I have my own limit, and I have no good vision like him.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

Well, this grandpa can fly his Air 2 up to 4,045 ft. Yes, I have my own limit, and I have no good vision like him.

I am smiling ear to ear , as u bring some interesting aspects for everyone to consider . Thanks for testing

 

[Motorcycle Rider]

I find adding strobe lights helps a LOT in adding VLOS. Some people are saying they only add a little bit more visibility. That alone shows we do not all have the same experience with our drones.

 

[PhantomFandom]

I find adding strobe lights helps a LOT in adding VLOS. Some people are saying they only add a little bit more visibility. That alone shows we do not all have the same experience with our drones.

The issue is not just visibility. Of course a high-quality strobe will make it visible at a farther distance, but that does not meet the requirements in the USA of VLOS. You must also be able to tell orientation. A visible white dot at a mile out will not tell you anything about orientation of the drone.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

This is the part I LOVE :::

So, how far can you fly away? Is it 3 miles? 2 miles? The FAA has refused to specify a fixed maximum distance for VLOS operations – and understandably so. A drone pilot flying in misty conditions will have limited visibility compared to his peer who is flying on a clear day.

As long as this stays true: We will all fly in the Gray with common sense and blessings , ejoyment and do our best to fly around , away , negativity.

When the day comes the FAA makes demands we will all kneel down and say our last prayers.

 

[Motorcycle Rider]

Use green on the front, red on the back.

 

[Phantomrain.org]

Use green on the front, red on the back.

For me its Neon blue flash on the back solid Neon Red on the front. That little extra for Quick Orientation . and maybe a quick spot light on the moon to light it up.