Maximum allowable altitude in the UK

[M4RK]

What is the maximum altitude that can be selected for UK flights?

Is it different in other countries...the USA for example?


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[msinger]

500m is the max possible altitude in every country.

 

[Anthony]

400 feet in the UK

Taken from this..

"
This is a summary of the legal situation in as plain English as we can do! Please refer to the air navigation order on the CAA site for specific details.

The operation of the aircraft must not endanger anyone or anything.

The aircraft must be kept within the visual line of sight (normally taken to be within 500 m horizontally and 400 ft vertically) of its remote pilot (i.e. the ‘person in charge’ of it). Operations beyond these distances must be approved by the CAA (the basic premise being for the operator to prove that he/she can do this safely).

Small unmanned aircraft (irrespective of their mass) that are being used for surveillance purposes are subject to tighter restrictions with regard to the minimum distances that you can fly near people or properties that are not under your control. If you wish to fly within these minima, permission is required from the CAA before operations are commenced.

CAA permission is also required for all flights that are being conducted for aerial work (i.e. in very simple terms, you are getting paid for doing it).

The 'remote pilot' has the responsibility for satisfying him/herself that the flight can be conducted safely.

The aircraft must not be flown:

• over or within 150 metres of any congested area
• over or within 150 metres of an organised open-air assembly of more than 1,000 persons;
• within 50 metres of any vessel, vehicle or structure which is not under the control of the person in charge of the aircraft
• within 50 metres of any person except during take-off or landing, the aircraft must not be flown within 30 metres of any person except for the person in charge of the aircraft.

Details of UK restricted airspace can be found at www.skydemonlight.com

Careful note should be taken that the collection of images of identifiable individuals, even inadvertently, when using surveillance cameras mounted on a small unmanned surveillance aircraft, will be subject to the Data Protection Act. As this Act contains requirements concerning the collection, storage and use of such images, Small Unmanned Aircraft operators should ensure that they are complying with any such applicable requirements or exemptions. Further information about the Data Protection Act and the circumstances in which it applies can be obtained from the Information Commissioner’s Office and website: www.ico.org.uk"

 

[M4RK]

400 feet in the UK

Taken from this..

Very informative. Many thanks.

Is this an abstract from the CAA website?




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[andynormancx]

The full details are on the CAA website.

Unmanned Aircraft | UK Civil Aviation Authority

and also page 48 here

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393Edition5Amend1_OCT2016.pdf

From my reading of it, the explicit 400 feet only applies to an aircraft with a mass of more than 7kg. Below that it looks to me like it is:

"The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions"

Which with the size of the Mavic, probably amounts to much the same limitation.

Unless I'm reading it wrong ? (I'd certainly assumed until now that there was a specific hard 400 foot limit for things like the Mavic)

On the CAA's "Drone code" website they do just list the 400 feet figure, but I don't believe that site claims everything listed there are rules as such.

 

[Pablo]

Whether it's a "rule" or not, 400ft is the safest maximum height to fly at. I often set my maximum in the app higher though as sometimes you're flying significantly uphill and may need to exceed 400ft from take off height.

 

[Pedro]

I believe that you are correct Andy and I also know first hand that some people who are directly involved with SUAV regulation in the UK also agree with this interpretation of the regulations.

I personally have flown a large drone (<7kg) much higher than the 400 feet limit as I could easily maintain visual contact with it but as you say, the Mavic is so small, one would struggle to see it much further away than 400 feet although I've never checked this out when flying mine as 90% of the time 90% of us won't be keeping visual contact with it preferring instead to look at the tablet/phone screen anyway.

 

[andynormancx]

I've not been above 400 feet with my Mavic and it certainly not always easy to find it again when you look away even at that height.

Thankfully the other aircraft that we are supposed to be avoiding will be a lot more visible to us when they are in the area at anywhere close to 400 feet (though admitted you might not get much warning before they appear if they are actually that low).

I've just bought myself a small strobe light that I'm going to try attaching to my Mavic to aid in visibility (unfortunately on the bottom of the Mavic where it would be most visible there is very little space where attaching it wouldn't block the sensors).

 

[halley]

The Mavic system measures all altitudes relative to the takeoff point. Your local laws probably do not.

The default setting for maximum altitude in the controller/aircraft is 120 meters ATO; this means it won't accept a command to rise higher than 120 meters (400 ft) above the takeoff point. You can change this limit however you like, up to a maximum of 500 meters ATO.

Some jurisdictions' laws may specify a ceiling of 400 ft AGL (above ground level) as the US currently does. This may include a reduced ceiling across canyons or a raised ceiling around buildings and mountains. The Mavic has no idea where the ground is, unless it happens to be hovering within about 2 meters of some object. It does not understand geographical drop-offs or hills at all. Your compliance with the 400 ft AGL rule is entirely on your own mental calculations.

The Mavic actually has an internal barometric altitude device, and the GPS/GLONASS receivers, both of which measures altitude relative to the average sea level. Thus your hometown may be at 2000 ft AMSL (above mean sea level) and the Mavic would use that measurement at the time of takeoff. However, NOWHERE on the controller screen nor the DJI Go app screen will you see altitude described this way. This is only used for internal calculation.

By the way, many people have flown Mavic above 14000 ft AMSL (by taking off from locations high in the mountains). Someone has flown off a peak at 18000 ft AMSL. Aerodynamically, propeller thrust gets weaker as the air gets thinner, so beware of underpowered flight if you try to go much higher than this.

If you stand on a bridge or cliff or ridge, you are easily able to fly below the takeoff point, so the Mavic will read negative altitude. For example, you could reach -740 ft ATO if you were allowed to fly down from the Golden Gate Bridge deck.

If you stand on the top of a skyscraper, or in the bottom of a canyon, all of these measuring systems may clash. Your country or the country you visit may have different rules that include buildings, airports, population density or other hazards to avoid. It's up to you as a pilot to be aware of these and fly safely.

 

[Pedro]

Just to add, I don't believe that as a matter of course we should fly above 400 feet as that's clearly not sensible and may lead to unwanted interaction, my reply above was purely relating to the interpretation of the regulations as they stand.

 

[M4RK]

Thank you everyone for your very informative discussion on this topic.

Shows perfectly the value of these forums for getting answers.

Could any PPL holders on here comment as to how that relates to the altitude of light aircraft on the downwind leg of a circuit?

I ask as I fly my Mavic just outside a small airfield's ATZ and often wonder if a light aircraft strayed to the edge of the ATZ in the circuit, what vertical separation would be achieved if the Mavic was say at a theoretical 400ft


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[Pedro]

Surely the diameter of the NFZ around provincial and main airports would dictate that this would never be an issue? At a minimum of 2.5 miles away from the strip no aircraft would be below 400 feet would it?

 

[M4RK]

I'd certainly hope not, but am unaware of the altitude at which light aircraft fly the circuit


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[Pedro]

A couple of years ago, we were in our back garden, and we are about 4 miles from the closest airport to us, Shoreham, when a light aircraft flew over us clearly far lower than the 1,500 feet restriction over conurbations. I would say that it was actually below 500 feet so being the public spirited person that I am I called the airport with his registration. I never heard a word back so I don't suppose anything came of it.

Air safety is of course a two way 'street'.

 

[M4RK]

Thanks Pedro...that's the sort of incident I am concerned about, being just outside our local airport's ATZ.

I am on the downwind leg side of the ATZ when the wind is in the prevailing SW and if a pilot should stray whilst flying that leg, I would like to know what altitude he is likely to be at.


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[SJT]

Downwind he should not be lower than 1000' AGL. That is height. He will have set his altimeter to the local atmospheric pressure given to him by the airfield (QFE) so that his altimeter will read the height above the airfield. Altitude is measured above mean sea level. Don't mix the two.

When your Mavic takes off it resets it's altimeter to zero so your readout will always show HEIGHT above the place it takes off. If you climb to 400 ft and then fly over a 200ft cliff your actual height would be 600ft and not the 400ft you would still see on your display.

No civil aircraft should generally be flying lower than 500ft outside of an ATZ (you've still got to watch out for SAR and helicopter ambulance) . Military can fly as low as 100ft in some areas and 250ft generally. Military helicopters can do pretty much what they want down to ground level. Military low flying - GOV.UK. It's all relative to where you are of course. I've been walking in the Lake District and had a Tornado flying in the valley beneath me.

I would ignore the 7 kg stuff. The CAA drone code says stay below 400ft regardless of the weight of the drone. In the absence of a specific law, a court will defer to a code of practice like this when British Airways sues you for the loss of their aircraft. You'll also probably be charged with multiple counts of manslaughter. Seriously, it just isn't worth quibbling with the 400ft stuff. Every UK version Mavic has a drone code flyer in the box so you can't really plead ignorance.

 

[M4RK]

Thats a really useful set of statistics and very sensible advice, SGT.

Thank you.

I am not considering even thinking about flying up to 400ft anywhere to be frank.

I was just curious how high light aircraft were in the circuit and thought it a useful discussion to have on here.

I fully understand the implications of aircraft using the QFE and us Mavic pilots only able to use height above the Home point.

A combination of common sense and the CAA guidelines means I'll be keeping well below that 400ft


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[M4RK]

I always think this is a useful diagram for explaining QFE, etc....

https://nomadicwings.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/qnh.gif


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[Anthony]

Mark stick with the default 120 meters ( 400 ft ) setting in the Mavic and will be just fine.

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[cobra46]

Thank you everyone for your very informative discussion on this topic.

Shows perfectly the value of these forums for getting answers.

Could any PPL holders on here comment as to how that relates to the altitude of light aircraft on the downwind leg of a circuit?

I ask as I fly my Mavic just outside a small airfield's ATZ and often wonder if a light aircraft strayed to the edge of the ATZ in the circuit, what vertical separation would be achieved if the Mavic was say at a theoretical 400ft


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I'm a non current PPL holder. Pattern altitudes are generally 1000' AGL. The lowest pattern I've seen was at my home airport (Hayward, Ca KHWD). One runway had a pattern altitude of 600' because Hayward sits right under the Class C of Oakland Airport.