Flying over towns and cities?

[AlanTheBeast]

Is a big NO NO in the UK but i keep seeing posts and pictures on here and FB of this.

Is it not illegal in some countries?

I wouldn't even if i could as i wouldn't want to lose my Mavic nor would i want to risk hurting someone.

Just curious.

The Canadian law said not over "populous" areas. What does that mean?

I took it to mean anywhere on the chart (VNC) that was in yellow. (Of course these charts are notoriously out of date where demographic symbols are concerned...).



But, with the new interim rules I'd say I can't fly laterally close to anyone, but I could fly 3 mm over their heads and homes without issue as long as they are not part of an "open-air assembly of persons"

That's how obscenely stupid the Canadian government is.

 

[AyeYo]

Easy, Big Guy; don't bust a gut. The price tag of a drone doesn't qualify or disqualify it from being "pro".

No. But what does is sufficient testing, quality of components used, and system redundancy - which actual commercial drones do have and the Mavic does not. The Mavic is a consumer drone and therefore a toy.

 

[Wombat55]

No. But what does is sufficient testing, quality of components used, and system redundancy - which actual commercial drones do have and the Mavic does not. The Mavic is a consumer drone and therefore a toy.

Seems to me that the Mavic has quite a bit of redundancy built in with many of its systems. For example, two IMUs, and two compasses, and the RTH fail-safe. What redundancies are you referring to that commercial drones have?

 

[AlanTheBeast]

Seems to me that the Mavic has quite a bit of redundancy built in with many of its systems. For example, two IMUs, and two compasses, and the RTH fail-safe. What redundancies are you referring to that commercial drones have?

From what we've read here in various "lost" files the issue is not the redundancies and abilities of the drones but the user's understanding of these redundancies and abilities and especially the myriad options and behaviours depending on conditions.

So

When I use it the Mavic Pro is an exceptionally capable photographic tool that can be operated safely and professionally in even challenging conditions and if there are problems I can depend on multiple semi and fully automated modes of safe recovery.​

But

When my neighbour's kid uses his Mavic Pro it is, as AyeYo says, a toy.​

Regrettably, the Canadian government has reduced everyone to toy owner operator unless one has a difficult to obtain SFOC or is a member of the ******* driven CAMA.

 

[jtc44]

Big first post here, but I'd like to weigh in. I've been feeling the waters and working my way up to a Mavic after goofing off with a tiny whoop and Bugs 3 for the past few months. I'm sure you can all understand when I say how hard it is to express how fun and rewarding this hobby is. Some thoughts:

How does "hobby" grade sound to everyone? I think the Mavic is deserving of that assignment.

I'm of the belief that as amazing and capable this little drone sounds, I'm kinda with Boris. While the Mavic is certainly capable enough (regardless of governing law) to fly out of LOS over towns and cities, it's a bad idea in its current stage of development. It's just too bleeding edge still. Even considering that the majority of flight failures seem to be a direct result of pilot error, there are simply too many variables IMO. Since my Bugs 3 has no auto-features to speak of, flying it has taught me the value of being able to manually control your bird when the situation demands it. That's something you can only do with a reasonable LOS and even then, **** happens.

Living in Utah, I have a lot of open and uninhabited space at my disposal to push my comfort level and fly over. When I purchase my Mavic will I be flying out of LOS in these spots? Yes. The risk here is probably just a fly away or crash where only the drone and my wallet are damaged. Will I be flying over and around Park City where open space (undeveloped) isn't directly below my flight path? No, the risk is certainly too great for me.

Also Strafe, I hear where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I agree that there "only a few idiots compared to the many more conscientious and safe pilots" out there. People SHOULD do what they do whether it be drive their car or fly their drone with the care and attention it deserves, but from what I see, that's not how human nature typically works. There seem to be a lot of folks who consistently push their luck and need to learn the hard way. And just because we haven't heard one story of someone being "blended by a quad," doesn't mean it's not about to happen if everyone in this hobby doesn't use their brain a little more. I'm dumbfounded by the interpretation of FAA rules and regulations by the members on many drone forums and I think this is all leading up to MUCH more "hard and fast" law with stricter enforcement and heavier consequences. After all, that's something I'd be behind, especially if some knucklehead's drone fell onto one of my kids' heads.

Thanks all and SAFE flying

 

[Yoshizakura]

Personally I'd like to know more about the why's and wherefore's of the UK as the OP probably does. The guideline for uk mentions 50mtrs away from any people or properties (next to or above) but then the rule changes to 150mtrs (but not above) from "crowds and built up areas"
Now, what is "properties" and what is "built up areas"?

 

[bk_flyguy]

Sorry, the Mavic IS toy-grade. Ok, ok, those semantic can be inflammatory to people who feel $1000 is a lot to spend on something and guarantees a level of professional quality. It can seem unfair when they have WAY cheaper toys that they associate with target.

Let's rephrase it. When flying non industrial grade aircraft over groups of people and property, without professional training (not to mention official clearance), it is irresponsible.

There's a reason industrial grade aircraft cost a ton of money. The mavic is a great piece of engineering. But I can't help but think that many people who are endangering people are very well meaning people who simply do not understand what they are and what they are not controlling.

Read these forums for a day and you will see two problems:

Problem 1: Drone hardware or software that is not industrial grade. There are some good "redundancies" built into the app, but they would never meet aviation standards. Buggy software, obstacle avoidance sensor problems, signal drop outs, unexplained flyaways, etc. They are relatively rare, and perfectly acceptable for a consumer grade craft. But this would NEVER be acceptable by industrial grade or military grade applications. And that's FINE - until you treat it and apply it industrial or military grade flights and applications.

Problem 2: Pilots who have not gone through 100s of hours of in-flight and in-book training, testing, and certification. By the way, I am one of them, and I don't think it's necessary to have a great time and be a decent pilot with the Mavic. But as soon as you convert that into "therefore I am fine to fly over a busy city street at 200 feet in the air" you are sorely mistaking and taking gambles with other people's lives. You know that dropping a penny off a building can literally kill someone due to the velocity, right? I dread the day the sadly inevitable news story comes out where a drone pilot crashes over a city and severely wounds or kills someone.

The post isn't meant to insult everyone. Realize the tool you are working with, be honest w/your experience level, recognize the heart behind certain laws, and most of all - the gravity of a potential mistake.

 

[AyeYo]

How does "hobby" grade sound to everyone? I think the Mavic is deserving of that assignment.

"Hobby grade" is the correct term.

The fact that it has two compasses doesn't mean it's reliable - as can be attested to by the nearly limitless fault complaint threads here.

 

[AlanTheBeast]

Big first post here, but I'd like to weigh in. I've been feeling the waters and working my way up to a Mavic after goofing off with a tiny whoop and Bugs 3 for the past few months. I'm sure you can all understand when I say how hard it is to express how fun and rewarding this hobby is. Some thoughts:

How does "hobby" grade sound to everyone? I think the Mavic is deserving of that assignment.

I'm of the belief that as amazing and capable this little drone sounds, I'm kinda with Boris. While the Mavic is certainly capable enough (regardless of governing law) to fly out of LOS over towns and cities, it's a bad idea in its current stage of development. It's just too bleeding edge still. Even considering that the majority of flight failures seem to be a direct result of pilot error, there are simply too many variables IMO. Since my Bugs 3 has no auto-features to speak of, flying it has taught me the value of being able to manually control your bird when the situation demands it. That's something you can only do with a reasonable LOS and even then, **** happens.

Living in Utah, I have a lot of open and uninhabited space at my disposal to push my comfort level and fly over. When I purchase my Mavic will I be flying out of LOS in these spots? Yes. The risk here is probably just a fly away or crash where only the drone and my wallet are damaged. Will I be flying over and around Park City where open space (undeveloped) isn't directly below my flight path? No, the risk is certainly too great for me.

Also Strafe, I hear where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I agree that there "only a few idiots compared to the many more conscientious and safe pilots" out there. People SHOULD do what they do whether it be drive their car or fly their drone with the care and attention it deserves, but from what I see, that's not how human nature typically works. There seem to be a lot of folks who consistently push their luck and need to learn the hard way. And just because we haven't heard one story of someone being "blended by a quad," doesn't mean it's not about to happen if everyone in this hobby doesn't use their brain a little more. I'm dumbfounded by the interpretation of FAA rules and regulations by the members on many drone forums and I think this is all leading up to MUCH more "hard and fast" law with stricter enforcement and heavier consequences. After all, that's something I'd be behind, especially if some knucklehead's drone fell onto one of my kids' heads.

Thanks all and SAFE flying

I've been involved in aviation since a kid. Pilot, instructor. Navigation system software and firmware. Managing such product lines and selling them. (Military and commercial worldwide).

The systems and integration on a Mavic Pro for a "non aviation" product are outstanding and sophisticated and would have been unthinkable merely 10 years ago.

DJI could improve their bag of tricks IMO (GPS/IMU integration in particular) but they are head and shoulders ahead of everyone else.

The value in a product like the MP is incredible with its sole short marks going to its camera sensor.

In short whether it is a "toy" or a "tool" or a "professional" drone has little to do with the Mavic Pro. It has all to do with the person operating it.

 

[Wombat55]

Drone hardware or software that is not industrial grade. There are some good "redundancies" built into the app, but they would never meet aviation standards. Buggy software, obstacle avoidance sensor problems, signal drop outs, unexplained flyaways, etc. They are relatively rare, and perfectly acceptable for a consumer grade craft. But this would NEVER be acceptable by industrial grade or military grade applications.

I guess you've never heard of the F-35, then?

Seriously, I get your point that aircraft built to carry humans have to undergo rigorous safety checks and licensing procedures. But I think that you're getting a bit carried away in trying to suggest that they is a big gap between something like the Mavic and so-called "industrial grade" products or apps.

 

[Wombat55]

In short whether it is a "toy" or a "tool" or a "professional" drone has little to do with the Mavic Pro. It has all to do with the person operating it.

I agree. Most all of the Mavic crashes or failures that I've read about on these forums are due to "pilot error", and not due to a hardware or software failure with the Mavic. People testing the limits of what they can get away with in flying the Mavic. I'm sure that something like a spontaneous, mid-air failure of a Mavic motor or propeller is possible, but I'll bet that such events are very, very rare.

 

[bk_flyguy]

Wombat, I disagree - and I think you do too if you think about it. You get that aircrafts designed to carry humans have to undergo these more rigorous standards. Why? Because a human life is at stake?

The FAA and DJI themselves - not to mention numerous countries around the world - are all in agreement that putting a consumer grade drone above human lifes where they could endanger people is not safe or the intended purpose of the product. As mentioned, the 2 problems with that are (1) the technology used in the Mavic is excellent but the hardware is simply not held to the same reliability standards and tests that are designed to protect human life and (2) the pilots themselves being the largest issue. Flying over people in a city can be very dangerous without sufficient skill, even with perfectly reliable hardware.

The reality is, something could happen anywhere - a hiker in a rural area, a neighborhood, an open field, etc. If you ruled out every place an accident could happen, you would never fly a drone. I get that. The point is that as soon as you enter an area with tons of metallic objects and line of sight obstructions, wireless signals, etc. and then fill it with a ton of people, your probability of having something go wrong multiplied with the probability of hurting someone if something goes wrong skyrockets.

Way too many people focused on "the mavic is a great piece of technlogy" instead of the fact that it's the wrong tool for the wrong job and assuming their skill level is so high that regulations and certifications that were created to protect innocent people don't apply to them. Flying in densely populated urban areas is a big responsibility and inherenly risky, even with industrial grade gear.

I actually don't understand the flippant attitude some people have to the life of me and my loved ones going about their business in a city so they can enjoy their hobby at my risk in a densely populated city, or get a shot that ultimately is not that important and at best may get you some views on YouTube that don't really matter.

If you're a professional and this matters, this doesn't apply to you. Then again, if you're a professional and this matters, you already know better and wouldn't be asking if you can fly your $1000 consumer drone without proper training and without permission over densely populated urban landscapes.

 

[iajetpilot]

While I agree with what BK_flyguy said in principle I think the laws, not just about drones, but about everything have swung way to far in the restrictive direction mostly due to litigation not a concern with safety. I like fishing as an example. Every single pond I drive by around central Ohio has signs up that say no fishing, no swimming, no this, no that. Yes there are places I can fish but they are getting fewer and fewer. It isn't because these things are dangerous its because no one wants to get sued. I don't know, I'm just getting sick of it.

 

[Kestrel]

No I don't fly only in the desert, I'm just not dumb enough to fly toy-grade consumer electronics with absolutely zero redundancy or certification over concentrations of people and property.

The mavic isn't toy grade. Its hobby grade. And there are built in redundancy in the Mavic. Toy grade are Quadcopters that are considered to have no GPS functions other advanced functions and brush motors and generally cheap. Its not professional grade but it sure as hell isn't toy grade.

 

[Glen e]

Who cares what you call it. The simple fact is if the battery comes loose and it drops like a rock on somebody you got a wrongful action litigation problem. And if you've never known anybody that Has gone through one of these, it can wipe your family out , financially… Don't do it.......

 

[aesculus]

Who cares what you call it. The simple fact is if the battery comes loose and it drops like a rock on somebody you got a wrongful action litigation problem. And if you've never known anybody that Has gone through one of these, it can wipe your family out , financially… Don't do it.......

Umbrella policy is a good thing to have. And I don't think a Mavic ever dropped like a rock because a battery came loose.

 

[Glen e]

Umbrella policy is a good thing to have. And I don't think a Mavic ever dropped like a rock because a battery came loose.

Then you don't read here.....LOL

 

[aesculus]

Then you don't read here.....LOL

I spend more time than I care to admit reading here lol. But, among the numerous things that can go wrong with a Mavic in mid-flight, a battery spontaneously coming loose is not one of them.

 

[Glen e]

I spend more time than I care to admit reading here lol. But, among the numerous things that can go wrong with a Mavic in mid-flight, a battery spontaneously coming loose is not one of them.

I'm not gonna joust with you and split hairs, there are Numerous threads here of drones falling out of control, two I know that look like batt disconnect.

The point is, consumer drones can go bad and flying over people is stupid.

 

[Strafe1]

Sorry, the Mavic IS toy-grade. Ok, ok, those semantic can be inflammatory to people who feel $1000 is a lot to spend on something and guarantees a level of professional quality. It can seem unfair when they have WAY cheaper toys that they associate with target.

Let's rephrase it. When flying non industrial grade aircraft over groups of people and property, without professional training (not to mention official clearance), it is irresponsible.

There's a reason industrial grade aircraft cost a ton of money. The mavic is a great piece of engineering. But I can't help but think that many people who are endangering people are very well meaning people who simply do not understand what they are and what they are not controlling.

Read these forums for a day and you will see two problems:

Problem 1: Drone hardware or software that is not industrial grade. There are some good "redundancies" built into the app, but they would never meet aviation standards. Buggy software, obstacle avoidance sensor problems, signal drop outs, unexplained flyaways, etc. They are relatively rare, and perfectly acceptable for a consumer grade craft. But this would NEVER be acceptable by industrial grade or military grade applications. And that's FINE - until you treat it and apply it industrial or military grade flights and applications.

Problem 2: Pilots who have not gone through 100s of hours of in-flight and in-book training, testing, and certification. By the way, I am one of them, and I don't think it's necessary to have a great time and be a decent pilot with the Mavic. But as soon as you convert that into "therefore I am fine to fly over a busy city street at 200 feet in the air" you are sorely mistaking and taking gambles with other people's lives. You know that dropping a penny off a building can literally kill someone due to the velocity, right? I dread the day the sadly inevitable news story comes out where a drone pilot crashes over a city and severely wounds or kills someone.

The post isn't meant to insult everyone. Realize the tool you are working with, be honest w/your experience level, recognize the heart behind certain laws, and most of all - the gravity of a potential mistake.

When buying consumer grade drones, many are classified as toy, hobby, prosumer or pro. Obviously, when compared to industrial or military unmanned craft, they are all "toys". Without arguing, I can see everyone's perpective, but it depends on the definition you use, and the context of the discussion.
I agree with all the safety considerations you mention, but there is way too much blasting people with the end of the world fire and brimstone when nothing has actually happened yet. I too dread the day that an innocent bystander is critically wounded from a hobbyists drone. But since that is not the case, more supportive recommendations and less holier than thou scolding seems more prudent. I think that that's what I would do if I was trying to teach a child, for example. I am not saying that your post is that type of criticism, because it is not.
Just as a side note, they have tested the penny theory and there is no threat to human life as the velocity is minimal due to air resistance.