USFS Drone Possession Illegal

[Mavic Ray]

I totally understand flying/operating a drone in the wilderness area but I've never heard of possessing one while in these areas as being illegal. I did not know they could enforce such a law. What if you happened to be through hiking or came from another trail head where there was no sign. Or if you didnt want to leave it in your car because you're doing a road trip. Seems to be a little extreme to me. I mean you're allowed to carry firearms in these areas but just can't fire them.

 

[sar104]

The basis for this is the prohibition on motorized and mechanized equipment and vehicles in wilderness areas. Those things are not allowed to be taken into wilderness areas, not simply not allowed to be used in wilderness.

For example, if you take a chainsaw into wilderness you are breaking the law, whether or not you fire it up.

 

[Mavic Ray]

The basis for this is the prohibition on motorized and mechanized equipment and vehicles in wilderness areas. Those things are not allowed to be taken into wilderness areas, not simply not allowed to be used in wilderness.

For example, if you take a chainsaw into wilderness you are breaking the law, whether or not you fire it up.

So then I'm allowed to take a chain saw and cut down trees in that wilderness area because it doesn't say on those signs that chain saws are illegal.

 

[sar104]

So then I'm allowed to take a chain saw and cut down trees in that wilderness area because it doesn't say on those signs that chain saws are illegal.

Those signs also don't state that driving your ATV there is prohibited. Do you think that means it's allowed?

 

[ZX14-R]

I need some Popcorn and a Soda

 

[dronerdave]

Kind of similar to packing a firearm in those areas. Best to know the restrictions.

 

[rangemaster728]

In looking at this I became curious...

I believe the OP is referring to this location (I circled Snow Lake in red):

The solid blue line with dots on the interior designates this as a Wilderness Area.

Of particular note is that as a Private Pilot in manned aircraft I shouldn’t be flying at any altitude less than 2000’ AGL over a wilderness area depicted on a sectional chart.

I also found this document (5 years old now) in which the USFS started thinking about UAS use in Wilderness Areas:

http://ordvac.com/soro/library/Aviation/UAS/2014%20memo-%20UAS%20in%20FS%20Wilderness.docx

It gives their (USFS) thoughts on why UAS operation be restricted/prohibited in certain cases.

I must say I do not disagree...but that’s my opinion.

If you really want to possess (and we’ll assume fly, for the sake of argument) a drone in a defined Wilderness Area then you can apply for a permit for photography...and the paperwork/fees/delays will far exceed the cost of the drone and your time.

 

[Jim Flannery K0UNX]

The Denver Water Board threatened to arrest me for trespass if I rode my e-bike in Waterton Canyon, 50 kM SW of Denver, citing a USFS internal memo prohibiting motorized vehicles on USFS land. I left the battery in my truck, thus making it JUST A BICYCLE. They still threatened arrest for trespass, even though it had no battery, and was JUST A BICYCLE. Note, they ALLOW BICYCLES, but won't allow an e-bike "Without The E." I have it on video!

 

[BrianS]

So I ride an area in California which borders a wilderness area in my Polaris RZR and I take my drone with me. It leads up to Cattle Mt in central California. They have an established OHV trail to the top which winds in and out of the wilderness area. Wonder how they'll react to my drone if discovered.

 

[Dan C]

The Denver Water Board threatened to arrest me for trespass if I rode my e-bike in Waterton Canyon, 50 kM SW of Denver, citing a USFS internal memo prohibiting motorized vehicles on USFS land. I left the battery in my truck, thus making it JUST A BICYCLE. They still threatened arrest for trespass, even though it had no battery, and was JUST A BICYCLE. Note, they ALLOW BICYCLES, but won't allow an e-bike "Without The E." I have it on video!

The trouble with anecdotes like this is that they do not answer the legal question.

Just because they think it is illegal doesn't make it illegal.

Just because they tell you it's illegal doesn't mean they believe it's illegal.

But in the end, no matter what the truth of the law, it isn't wise to argue with them.

 

[sar104]

The Denver Water Board threatened to arrest me for trespass if I rode my e-bike in Waterton Canyon, 50 kM SW of Denver, citing a USFS internal memo prohibiting motorized vehicles on USFS land. I left the battery in my truck, thus making it JUST A BICYCLE. They still threatened arrest for trespass, even though it had no battery, and was JUST A BICYCLE. Note, they ALLOW BICYCLES, but won't allow an e-bike "Without The E." I have it on video!

That's not wilderness. Motorized vehicles, and even regular bicycles, are prohibited in wilderness.

Starting Points - Colorado Trail Foundation

Information for thru-hikers and bikers beginning their trips from The Colorado Trail’s northern terminus at Waterton Canyon, near the Denver metro area and from Durango's Junction Creek trailhead.

coloradotrail.org

 

[Jim Flannery K0UNX]

That's not wilderness. Motorized vehicles, and even regular bicycles, are prohibited in wilderness.

Starting Points - Colorado Trail Foundation

Information for thru-hikers and bikers beginning their trips from The Colorado Trail’s northern terminus at Waterton Canyon, near the Denver metro area and from Durango's Junction Creek trailhead.

coloradotrail.org

You're correct. Waterton Canyon is NOT wilderness, this is a dirt ROAD with Denver Waterboard trucks on it, and even the POV's of the two families that LIVE in the canyon. But starting 2.7 miles UP the canyon is non-wilderness USFS land, and that's what Denver Water says they're enforcing. For the WHOLE canyon, not just the USFS land.

 

[sar104]

You're correct. Waterton Canyon is NOT wilderness, this is a dirt ROAD with Denver Waterboard trucks on it, and even the POV's of the two families that LIVE in the canyon. But starting 2.7 miles UP the canyon is non-wilderness USFS land, and that's what Denver Water says they're enforcing. For the WHOLE canyon, not just the USFS land.

Mostly that's not inconsistent - water authorities often have additional regulations with USFS consent. Where they seem like they got it wrong was in objecting to your bicycle.

 

[BigAl07]

So then I'm allowed to take a chain saw and cut down trees in that wilderness area because it doesn't say on those signs that chain saws are illegal.

Huh?

If merely having the chainsaw in your possession is illegal exactly how would be using that illegal chainsaw to destroy Wilderness Property not also be illegal?

 

[rangemaster728]

It’s times like this that a quote from Mythbusters comes to mind... lol.

Everyone have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend!

 

[Mavic Mac]

Huh?

If merely having the chainsaw in your possession is illegal exactly how would be using that illegal chainsaw to destroy Wilderness Property not also be illegal?

I worked within wilderness areas for 20 years as a horseback guide. Possession or use of a chainsaw is illegal. Even the forest rangers are not allowed to use or have a chain saw. This was one of those laws that was passed through without complete analysis of the results. All of the tree cutting, trail clearing and firewood is cut by hand. Basically anything that is mechanical, ie bicycle, snowmobile, atv, dirt bike, etc is illegal in a wilderness area.
When we cleared trail in the national forest (non-wilderness) we would use a chainsaw. Once we came to the wilderness boundary we would hide the saw, gas and oil. With GPS it would be pretty hard to dummy up and pretend you didn't know you were in the wilderness.

 

[Mavic Mac]

View attachment 80636View attachment 80637

I totally understand flying/operating a drone in the wilderness area but I've never heard of possessing one while in these areas as being illegal. I did not know they could enforce such a law. What if you happened to be through hiking or came from another trail head where there was no sign. Or if you didnt want to leave it in your car because you're doing a road trip. Seems to be a little extreme to me. I mean you're allowed to carry firearms in these areas but just can't fire them.

Not suggestion you carry your drone into a wilderness area but if you kept it in your pack out of sight and didn't announce it to anybody, including your hiking partner(s) you probably could get away with it. But is the chance of the fine and having your drone confiscated really worth it ?

 

[dawgpilot]

I looked up 36 CFR § 261.18 which the sign cites as the legal authority behind the prohibition. This purports to ban the possession of "motorized equipment" in wilderness areas. According to the same chapter in the regulations, "motorized equipment" is defined as:

any equipment having or using an engine or motor, except small battery-powered handheld devices such as cameras, shavers, flashlights, and Geiger counters.

So the law itself seems to exclude smaller battery powered devices, and even gives cameras as an example. I wonder if anyone who has received a ticket under that regulation has argued that the posession of a drone could fit into that exception as well. Something like a Mavic Air isn't really larger than a full frame DSLR camera, has photography as one of its main functions, and is also battery powered.

That said, it's probably better to not tempt fate and avoid getting the ticket in the first place.

 

[sar104]

I looked up 36 CFR § 261.18 which the sign cites as the legal authority behind the prohibition. This purports to ban the possession of "motorized equipment" in wilderness areas. According to the same chapter in the regulations, "motorized equipment" is defined as:



So the law itself seems to exclude smaller battery powered devices, and even gives cameras as an example. I wonder if anyone who has received a ticket under that regulation has argued that the posession of a drone could fit into that exception as well. Something like a Mavic Air isn't really larger than a full frame DSLR camera, has photography as one of its main functions, and is also battery powered.

That said, it's probably better to not tempt fate and avoid getting the ticket in the first place.

The camera part is fine, but the drone itself is defined as a powered aircraft. That completely rules it out.

 

[dawgpilot]

The camera part is fine, but the drone itself is defined as a powered aircraft. That completely rules it out.

The law doesn't actually list powered aircraft as a type of item where mere possession is banned. (flying it is a different matter)