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Slow Motion on Mavic 3

JohnNokomis

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Can anyone tell me why the max FPS on this new bird is worse than what I already have on my Mavic Air 2? Sure, the quality at that 240 frame rate is debatable but still it's nice to have that option. I love a good slow motion shot but for $5000 I don't understand why it only does half the frame rate of a sub $1000 drone?
 
Your Air 2 is not doing 240 FPS @ 4K so the frame rate is not half if you are comparing the same resolutions.

The Mavic 3 will do 1080P @ 200fps and the Air 2 will do 1080P @ 240fps.

More importantly, the Mavic 3 will do 4K @ 120fps where the Air 2 maxes out at 4K @ 60fps.

The Air 2 has an image sensor nearly 5 times smaller than the one in the M3 and it's easier to get faster readouts from smaller sensors, so that is likely why the Air 2 gives you an extra 40fps @ 1080P. The difference is very small though so it could be any number of reasons.
 
Oh ok, from what I've seen I thought it maxed out at 120 @1080p. The Mavic 3 ups the bitrate from the MA2's 120 Mbps to 200 Mbps. So I assume it has roughly twice the processing power, since file write speed is using the same micro SD card. With the exception of the Cine's SSD.

I understand your point of it having to read a bigger sensor. Except that shooting at 1080 it's only reading 21% of a 5.1k sensor.

I'll admit my MA2's 240 fps is more like a 720p resolution. But I expected an improvement in FPS not a lower frame rate. What are the chances this changes in a future firmware?
 
I think this is likely due to the sensor technologies, the Mavic Air 2 uses a stacked sensor which is designed for a high speed read out and it's possible the Mavic 3 is using a BSI sensor. The Mavic Air 2S 1in sensor is likely a BSI sensor rather than stacked sensor and it doesn't have the higher framerate either.

Sony do produce 1in stacked sensors and use them in their RX100mk4 onwards and the RX10mk2 onwards but they only seem to sell the smaller mobile phone sized sensors like the one in the Mavic Air 2 using the faster technology. Panasonic and Canon have used 1in sensors from Sony in their own cameras but the BSI versions and the full frame stacked sensors used in the A9 and A1 they also seem to have kept to themselves.

That's all guesswork based on observation but I wouldn't expect them to offer any higher framerates although that said 200fps is pretty close to 240fps especially since the Mavic 3 can do that at 1080p which is double the resolution. Sony offer 1000fps modes on their 1in stacked sensors and I could appreciate the drop down to 200fps is a very big one but less so 240 to 200.
 
Oh ok, from what I've seen I thought it maxed out at 120 @1080p. The Mavic 3 ups the bitrate from the MA2's 120 Mbps to 200 Mbps. So I assume it has roughly twice the processing power, since file write speed is using the same micro SD card. With the exception of the Cine's SSD.

I understand your point of it having to read a bigger sensor. Except that shooting at 1080 it's only reading 21% of a 5.1k sensor.

I'll admit my MA2's 240 fps is more like a 720p resolution. But I expected an improvement in FPS not a lower frame rate. What are the chances this changes in a future firmware?
At 1080P, it's not just reading 21% of the sensor, otherwise you'd end up with a very cropped in image. Instead, it's reading the sensor and binning or downsampling to get to that final resolution.

I'd say the chances are slim that this changes in the future.
 
At 1080P, it's not just reading 21% of the sensor, otherwise you'd end up with a very cropped in image. Instead, it's reading the sensor and binning or downsampling to get to that final resolution.

I'd say the chances are slim that this changes in the future.

This is correct, it reads the whole sensor and then throws away data until you're left with 1080P. I don't know how the Air 2 does it though, there are a few ways to do it - binning, subsampling, or line skipping. The M2P for example uses subsampling to get 4K from it's 20MP sensor in FOV mode, which is not a good way to go about it.


Sony do produce 1in stacked sensors and use them in their RX100mk4 onwards and the RX10mk2 onwards but they only seem to sell the smaller mobile phone sized sensors like the one in the Mavic Air 2 using the faster technology. Panasonic and Canon have used 1in sensors from Sony in their own cameras but the BSI versions and the full frame stacked sensors used in the A9 and A1 they also seem to have kept to themselves.

Sony Semiconductor is a completely different entity than Sony Imaging and for the most part, they will sell any sensor to anyone for the right price and they will also license their technology to others for the right price. It is far more profitable for them to operate that way than keeping the good stuff all to themselves. It is a much larger business than their imaging company and operates separately. They will either sell "off the shelf" sensors or fabricate them to manufacturer specifications (like they do for Nikon). They also will sell exclusive sensors to other companies, such as the 20MP unit in the Nikon D500/D7500. Sony also makes stacked BSI 4/3 sensors and Sony does not sell any 4/3 cameras to put them in - the Panasonic GH6 will likely have one of these units. Sony also sold stacked 1" sensors to Canon for use in the G7XIII and G5X II.

Nikon's Z9 uses a FF stacked sensor that is likely fabricated by Sony even though it is a Nikon design. This still needs to be confirmed but I will be surprised if something has changed there. The other possibility is a company called Tower Semiconductor, which Nikon has a 20-year-old relationship with, and if they are the manufacturer of the Z9's sensor, it will be their first of that type, which is why it's less likely, especially since such advanced sensor production is very difficult to scale. They do however have Xperi licensing, which is the bonding technique everyone uses for stacked sensors. Canon also now has their own FF stacked sensors in the R3, however they are not up to the level of the Sony units with regards to performance, particularly with readout speed or resolution. To my knowledge there are no other companies capable of producing FF stacked sensors at scale - modern fab lines cost well into the billions which is one reason why there are so few players. Panasonic, Toshiba, Renesas, and Aptina all used to make camera sensors in the past but most of their fab lines have since been sold off. Omivision, Samsung, and Sony are all currently making stacked sensors, but the former two only in smaller formats. I am extremely curious to get confirmation on the Z9 sensor, as there are only two possible manufacturers for it.
 
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Sony Semiconductor is a completely different entity than Sony Imaging and for the most part, they will sell any sensor to anyone for the right price and they will also license their technology to others for the right price. It is far more profitable for them to operate that way than keeping the good stuff all to themselves. It is a much larger business than their imaging company and operates separately. They will either sell "off the shelf" sensors or fabricate them to manufacturer specifications (like they do for Nikon). They also will sell exclusive sensors to other companies, such as the 20MP unit in the Nikon D500/D7500. Sony also makes stacked BSI 4/3 sensors and Sony does not sell any 4/3 cameras to put them in - the Panasonic GH6 will likely have one of these units. Sony also sold stacked 1" sensors to Canon for use in the G7XIII and G5X II.
I'm going by what they actually did in practice, not how you think they operate. I didn't know Canon were finally using the stacked 1in sensor but it doesn't change my point, that sensor was available in the RX100 IV in 2015 and that's a far larger gap than is usual for their sensors. Similar the A9 was launched back in 2017 now and to my knowledge no non-Sony camera has used it. The Z9 backs this up further since there's a lot of speculation it's not a standard Sony sensor and Nikon use a lot of Sony sensors, their late entry around the same time as Canon suggests they've not been able to use the Sony stacked sensors for one reason or another. Although on the other hand it may simply be reluctance from Nikon/Canon to abandon their top end DSLRs.

That's all irrelevant anyway and doesn't change the answer to the OP, I seriously doubt the Mavic 3 will be getting a higher framerate.
 
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And it doesn't change the answer to the OP either, I doubt the Mavic 3 is using a stacked sensor and I doubt it even more that they will add higher framerates.

I'm guessing it isn't using a stacked sensor either, it doesn't need to for the video specs, but where it would be valuable is for the people who miss their mechanical shutter for mapping. Most mechanical shutters operate at a maximum of around 1/200 or 1/250 of a second but you can't match that with an electronic shutter unless you are using a stacked sensor - at least not with currently available technology.

Sony does make at least one 20MP stacked 4/3 sensor so there is a tiny bit of hope.
 
I'm guessing it isn't using a stacked sensor either, it doesn't need to for the video specs, but where it would be valuable is for the people who miss their mechanical shutter for mapping. Most mechanical shutters operate at a maximum of around 1/200 or 1/250 of a second but you can't match that with an electronic shutter unless you are using a stacked sensor - at least not with currently available technology.

Sony does make at least one 20MP stacked 4/3 sensor so there is a tiny bit of hope.
I did wonder that but figured it was announced too late for the Mavic 3 given the GH5 II would have been a likely candidate for it as well rather than the much older IMX272.
 
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I'm guessing it isn't using a stacked sensor either, it doesn't need to for the video specs, but where it would be valuable is for the people who miss their mechanical shutter for mapping. Most mechanical shutters operate at a maximum of around 1/200 or 1/250 of a second but you can't match that with an electronic shutter unless you are using a stacked sensor - at least not with currently available technology.

Sony does make at least one 20MP stacked 4/3 sensor so there is a tiny bit of hope.
I've not done much mapping - is the value in the mechanical shutter because mapping users are shooting while moving, or something else?
 
I've not done much mapping - is the value in the mechanical shutter because mapping users are shooting while moving, or something else?

You are correct. Most image sensors have very slow readout speeds which causes a rolling shutter effect in video and distortion in still images if using an electronic shutter. This happens if either the camera or subject is moving too fast, and applies to any scenario, but it's important to avoid this when mapping.

Mechanical shutters are fast enough to prevent this in still images and they generally max out around 1/200-1/250sec in terms of their actual speed, which allows them to operate fast enough to virtually eliminate those types of distortion. You cannot use the mechanical shutter for video.

All this being said, there is actually no real benefit to a mechanical shutter whatsoever provided the sensor readout can be done as fast or faster, which is what some stacked sensor types can do. If you can achieve that without a mechanical shutter, you now have fewer moving parts, fewer failure points, less vibration, zero noise, and unlimited theoretical durability (mechanical shutters don't have a very long life span depending on the usage case).

Now, I will be surprised if DJI is using a stacked sensor but we don't know either way yet so fingers crossed.
 
I was curious what the highest framerate the gh5 mk2 was capable of, if it was much lower than the 200fps mode the Mavic 3 offers then that would imply the Mavic 3 has a newer faster sensor but its maximum framerate is almost identical with 1080p at 180fps.
 
I was curious what the highest framerate the gh5 mk2 was capable of, if it was much lower than the 200fps mode the Mavic 3 offers then that would imply the Mavic 3 has a newer faster sensor but its maximum framerate is almost identical with 1080p at 180fps.

It gets trickier with the slomo features because if you aren't reading the whole sensor, you can get faster fps than the full-resolution readout speed. That being said, neither of these cameras seem to bother with that beyond 1080P @ ~200fps.

At any rate, I suspect the M3 is using the same sensor in the GH5/GH5II - there aren't many 20MP 4/3 sensors on the market to choose from and Sony makes them all.

Some sensors are as slow as 1/6 or 1/10 and that's where you run into obvious problems. Up around 1/200-1/250 or so, you essentially have zero problems as that is well into mechanical shutter territory but few sensors can achieve that. I believe the GH5 readout is around 1/30 which isn't amazing but also not bad.
 

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