Small Planes Flying Below 500 feet AGL

[Max Headroom]

As for the snitching part, it's interesting that some peoples initial reaction is asking why I didn't snitch on them. Snitching on folks just simply isn't something that occurs to me naturally or that I am inclined to do unless it is something serious.

So if a guy was driving up and down the busy road outside your house where kids play every day at twice the speed limit you wouldn't report them because you consider it snitching, what kind of logic is that?

 

[Drbobk]

I live in an area where there are trails up the foothills East of San Jose. When I climb to high elevations near high-tension power lines, I have seen small planes flying just above the tops of these high-tension lines. Clearly, these towers are not 500 ft tall. As a former sailplane pilot, I am reasonably able to judge elevation of aircraft. That said, I wondered if this was a violation. I asked a friend who is an aviation instructor with multiple ratings if that was a legal altitude. She told me that this low altitude is permissible since they are attempting to land at Reid Hillview airport four miles away in a Class D airspace and they want to stay under the Class C airspace designated for the San Jose airport. Before you say that your aircraft was flying illegally be sure to look at the sectional chart to see if they were in the process of landing at a nearby airport.

It is also possible for helicopters to fly just over treetop height. I flew once in a field surrounded by tall trees and was lucky to hear the approaching helicopter that quickly appeared just over those trees and well under 400 ft. I was able to duck under th4e height of the trees, but just barely in time. The newer features added to identify nearby aircraft helps, but I hate to rely on that.

which aircraft(drone)/controller combinations display ADS-B info on their screens? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it on my Mavic 2’s or Mini 3 Pro. Just got a 3 Pro but have hardly flown it…

 

[Aerophile]

OP insists he can accurately estimate aircraft altitudes from the ground. Not believable.

OP says he knows someone who flies airplanes literally at treetop altitudes. Not believable.

OP doesn't say much about where exactly he is seeing all these airplanes tangling with the trees.

The federal regulations (posted above) are pretty clear, but leave out some critical details. For example, if you are out in the middle of nowhere (not over cities, towns, settlements, and "congested areas"), it's perfectly legal for crewed aircraft to fly below 500' AGL - as long as there's nobody/nothing around for a great distance - and there are plenty of empty places that meet those criteria. It's not a safe practice, it's stupid, but if a pilot is dumb enough to crash into the ground far from any people/vehicle/structure because he was just flying too low, it may be stupid but being stupid isn't illegal (if it was, we would be building a lot of prisons...).

People report low-flying aircraft that outrage them all the time. Those aircraft almost always are clearly NOT violating any minimum altitude regulations. People just can't estimate the altitude of aircraft in flight, and they have lets say, other issues.

OP's post is not credible. Sorry.

 

[Max Headroom]

OP insists he can accurately estimate aircraft altitudes from the ground. Not believable.

OP says he knows someone who flies airplanes literally at treetop altitudes. Not believable.

OP doesn't say much about where exactly he is seeing all these airplanes tangling with the trees.

OP's post is not credible. Sorry.

Best post of the day for me

 

[hank970]

I was waiting for this response...

I know the height of the structures that are around me ( such as the cellular tower that is nearby, as well as other structures such as the near by church steeple) and use those as a guide, and I know what a small plane that is flying below 500' near my property looks like because my brother the private pilot buzzed our house on more than one occasion flying below that altitude, as in buzzing the tree tops. I'm not an idiot...I wouldn't have asked that question here unless I was certain they were below 500'.

I think I'm getting your drift. It's OK for your brother to buzz your house at treetop level on more than one occasion in defiance of FAA minimums, but it's not OK for anyone else to fly below 500 feet AGL near your home -- if indeed that's what they're doing. Do you have any idea how your brother's reckless behavior affected your neighbors?

You may not be an idiot, but a sane person with a legitimate concern might file a formal complaint with the appropriate governing agency rather than posting here. Take pictures, get a tail number, line up witnesses, and contact the FAA. Also inform your brother of your sensitivity to low altitude flight and tell him to behave himself.

 

[akdrone]

Here's the actual rule regarding minimum safe altitudes for planes.

§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA

Living in a sparsely populated area, often not near other people, I can assure you that heading c above comes into effect at times. I have, without question (believe it or not) seen planes under 500 feet...STOL planes flying at maybe 100 feet...nearby. On one occasion I was flying in back of my wife, filming her walking our dog and I heard something to my left and it was astoundingly low. Happily I was not next to it but I'm guessing my drone was at least as high as the plane if not higher at that moment. I flew over to the plane and circled it a bit...oh wait...no...I landed kinda immediately. It freaked me out a bit and I didn't want him turning my way and I couldn't watch the plane and film with my drone (relatively close) at the same time. So if you're in a sparsely populated area and there are no people, vessels, vehicles or structures in the area in the area within 500 feet of the plane it can go lowwww.

 

[johnnyb57]

I sympathize with the original poster, glocke12. I live in Miami, and in a fairly affluent neighborhood. I happen to live along the flight path of both small light weight planes and tourism helicopters, and every evening, around golden hour, I dare not put my drone up in the air above my driveway because of the danger of being in the path of these planes. For sure, they are flying very low, probably less than 500 feet. Although I have binoculars I could not possibly grab the tail number, nor would I know where to report them. My only protection would be to actually hear the sound of an aircraft nearing me and rapidly respond by lowering my drone. I tend to limit my flying to about 100-125 feet.
Dale

My point bein no one wants to crash, or screw up the others day, the part that that bothers me is people saying "report them" like WTF would that do, other than fulfil ur ego ? Lets be honest we've all broken a law/rule or two, dont lie

 

[glocke12]

I think I'm getting your drift. It's OK for your brother to buzz your house at treetop level on more than one occasion in defiance of FAA minimums, but it's not OK for anyone else to fly below 500 feet AGL near your home -- if indeed that's what they're doing. Do you have any idea how your brother's reckless behavior affected your neighbors?

You may not be an idiot, but a sane person with a legitimate concern might file a formal complaint with the appropriate governing agency rather than posting here. Take pictures, get a tail number, line up witnesses, and contact the FAA. Also inform your brother of your sensitivity to low altitude flight and tell him to behave himself.

Are you drunk or just trolling/purposely misinterpreting my post ?

Where on earth did I ever say I was ok with him doing this ? It happened, I can't control his actions, and fortunately he no longer flies but I was present when it happened so now have a valid reference point for what a single engine plane flying just above tree level looks like at my place. Thats the only comment I am going to make with regards to this.

Reading through some of the helpful/non-insulting posts I guess the fact that my property backs up to a large wooded preserved area that has no one living back there, and the other surrounding areas can be viewed as sparsely populated probably explains how a pilot could possibly get away with flying lower than 500' AGL.

I've also not expressed any " outrage " over this in either my O.P. or any of my replies. I merely asked a simple question on a forum that I had thought consisted of rational adults but apparently I was mistaken on that last part based on some of the replies here.

Thank you to those that were able to provide helpful and respectful replies.

 

[sawman]

Just to reiterate, YOU should first find out about the specific airspace where the alleged violation occurred. If it was class G (most likely) then there was NO violation and the FAA won't bother to even leave the office.
In my area, there are numerous agricultural aircraft, along with myself and several friends flying powered paragliders, all operating below 500ft on a regular basis, legally. YMMV

 

[Pacefast]

I'm pretty sure that my understanding that small, single engine planes are not permitted to fly below 500' AGL ( aside from take offs and landings ) is correct, yet once a month or so I see these types of aircraft flying in my area and over house and they are obviously below 500'. To my eye it appears they are as low as 300'-400', and they are low enough that if I were flying my drone from my backyard over my house/property at those altitudes it would be very concerning to me.

Are these pilots just ignoring the flight rules pertaining to their aircraft or is there a valid reason for them to be flying that low?

There are no airports anywhere within a 10 mile radius of my house that they would be using for takeoffs/landings so thats not whats going on.

As an Ex Captain on corporate jets and prior to that a commercial pilot on piston twins and prior to that a PPL on singles do not take anything for granted!
PFLs or practised forced landings are supposed to stop at 500 feet AGL but from my experience often with instructors or examiners went much lower even down to maybe 50 feet to be sure the PFL would result in a good touch down point into a field ! By the book 500 feet but reality much lower so as with helicopters never take anytjing for granted

 

[glocke12]

As an Ex Captain on corporate jets and prior to that a commercial pilot on piston twins and prior to that a PPL on singles do not take anything for granted!
PFLs or practised forced landings are supposed to stop at 500 feet AGL but from my experience often with instructors or examiners went much lower even down to maybe 50 feet to be sure the PFL would result in a good touch down point into a field ! By the book 500 feet but reality much lower so as with helicopters never take anytjing for granted

Thats helpful...I was wondering if it was a PFL or some other type of training exercise. It's a rare occurrence that I see these planes flying that low, like I said once a month or so but it being some type of training exercise is basically what I was wondering.

 

[paulhackerllc]

What part of " My brother buzzed our house more than once near tree top level " did you not understand ?. That and knowing the height of local structures gives me a pretty darn good idea of how high these planes are flying. I also told you there are other structures nearby that I use as reference also, such as a nearby cell tower.

No I haven't reported them because I wasn't sure if they were perhaps practicing some type of emergency maneuver ( like the other pilot around here who purposely stalls his engine during flight ), and I also suppose because I am not a snitch.

This makes me think of police officers who have the ability to judge the speed of a vehicle without using radar. On a positive note, this keeps you on alert when flying your drone.

I had four military helicopters fly maybe 50’ off the water by our house one time. Afterwards I ask myself what would I have done if my drone was in the air. These events give you scenarios to plan for.

 

[glocke12]

This makes me think of police officers who have the ability to judge the speed of a vehicle without using radar. On a positive note, this keeps you on alert when flying your drone.

I had four military helicopters fly maybe 50’ off the water by our house one time. Afterwards I ask myself what would I have done if my drone was in the air. These events give you scenarios to plan for.

I've never encountered a police officer that has claimed to have these supernatural abilities, and I'd like to think that any police officer with any shred of intelligence would not cite someone for speeding without having proof.

Honestly I am not sure why my post has triggered people here in a manner that has been so negative/hostile. It was a simple question and I was anticipating some rather more mature comments, I certainly wasn't expecting to be called a liar. Now I know better.

As for everything else, I know what a small single engine plane looks like flying low and directly over my house looks like, I know what similar planes look like flying at 500' or higher look like, and I know the height of the structures that are around my house. It's not that difficult to be able to tell when an aircraft is flying below 500' when I am at my residence. If I were elsewhere ? I wouldn't guess, but here at home I will.

Mods may as well lock this thread down.

 

[mavic3usa]

I've never encountered a police officer that has claimed to have these supernatural abilities, and I'd like to think that any police officer with any shred of intelligence would not cite someone for speeding without having proof.

I know you said you have not encountered one so I believe you are lucky but those officers exist. I have at least a dozen traffic stops over my lifetime for speeding from officers who never got me on radar or laser or any other approved device but by visual only. Half of those resulted in a warning and half of those resulted in a citation. I rarely paid a ticket on the face and often went thru some sort of process like dismissed unless I get a 2nd ticket or paid extra to get it turned into a parking ticket. Likely because the visual method is less reliable but for sure, it is accepted by courts. Do I believe a police officer can visually determine the speed of a moving vehicle accurately enough to write a citation? I do.

I wish we had a bunch of case law that supports our "right" to fly drone safely and peacefully but we don't because no one will accept the challenge, the stakes are too high.....for both sides.

UNITED STATES v. SOWARDS

City Of Barberton v. Jenney

 

[paulhackerllc]

If the aircraft has a ADS-B transponder, apps like Flight Radar may list the type of aircraft, tail number, speed and elevation if you're curious.

https://www.apposee.com/com.flightradar24free?msclkid=64eba9d0899e191bf9f0c17939f3b2af&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=US-Flightradar24-DD&utm_term=Flightradar24%20app&utm_content=Flightradar24

.

I use flightradar24 almost daily, mostly for fun, but at times to determine if there is/are incoming small planes or helicopters prior to flying the drone. There have been numerous times where the height listed on the app and my guesstimate are way off. It might say 1800’ and I’d bet money it’s between 4-600’. My location is only 200ish feet msl.

 

[Greasy]

wow....no further comment since I am an adult, and I also do not want to risk getting banned from this site, but thankfully there is an ignore button. When I've already mentioned more than once that I have reference for what a low altitude flight looks like over my house ( again, my brother buzzing our house several times just above the tree tops ), you are way out of line with your comment. I mean, when I've seen a single engine Cessna fly directly over my house a few times just barely clearing the tree tops I think that is enough to give me a pretty good idea of how low other aircraft of a similar size are flying. JFC...

He wont agree with you he thinks he is a human altimeter

They can just call him up ask how high they are flying lol.

 

[HoozierDroneDaddy]

For the OP. Just curious. You said your brother flew just over tree tops so you knew his altitude. And the flights in question are below 500' AGL. You have references to structures to determine the alt of the planes in question. But you have never said what altitude those planes are actually flying. Are you talking 450' which below 500' yet still above UAS 400' altitudes? Or lower such as 399', 300', 200', or lower?

 

[glocke12]

For the OP. Just curious. You said your brother flew just over tree tops so you knew his altitude. And the flights in question are below 500' AGL. You have references to structures to determine the alt of the planes in question. But you have never said what altitude those planes are actually flying. Are you talking 450' which below 500' yet still above UAS 400' altitudes? Or lower such as 399', 300', 200', or lower?

I already said in the O.P. they appeared to be at 300'-400', " low enough that if I were flying a drone I'd have been concerned " is how I put it and thats an easy guess to make since I know what a similar size aircraft looks like flying low and above tree top level here.

In any case, I'm not wasting anymore time on this thread or forum...I posted a simple/reasonable question that required a simple answer, end of story. Half the replies here were simply way out of line. I know it's the internet, and idiots and trolls with nothing better to do exist everywhere, but I expected more adult responses here considering that this is a fairly small community.

 

[Max Headroom]

forum...I posted a simple/reasonable question that required a simple answer, end of story. Half the replies here were simply way out of line. I know it's the internet, and idiots and trolls with nothing better to do exist everywhere, but I expected more adult responses here considering that this is a fairly small community.

You posted a simple question and we gave you a simple answer YOU CANNOT ACCUTATLEY MEASURE THE HEIGHT OF AN AIRCRAFT USING YOUR EYE, you disagreed with all the members who said the same now you call us idiots, I think you need to look a little closer to home to see who actually is the idiot here!

 

[HoozierDroneDaddy]

I already said in the O.P. they appeared to be at 300'-400', " low enough that if I were flying a drone I'd have been concerned " is how I put it and thats an easy guess to make since I know what a similar size aircraft looks like flying low and above tree top level here.

In any case, I'm not wasting anymore time on this thread or forum...I posted a simple/reasonable question that required a simple answer, end of story. Half the replies here were simply way out of line. I know it's the internet, and idiots and trolls with nothing better to do exist everywhere, but I expected more adult responses here considering that this is a fairly small community.

Thank you for your answer. Just asking for curiosity.