the Way forwards

[old man mavic]

Hi fellow fliers
this thread is about my thoughts on what the future of the hobby side of drone ownership is going to be like
it is purely about the drones that we fly ,for what ever reason ,and not the professional drones used by the commercial industry ,they are a whole different breed
it seems that recent new drones coming on the market ,are being produced in at least two variant's
those with as many bells and whistles as can be accommodated
and those with a lesser amount of bells and whistles,
and i think that DJI missed a trick there with the M 3,a version without all the obstacle avoidance and fancy RTH features, with a camera minus the separate zoom part ,at a price that many more people could afford ,or be prepared to pay would have been a good seller
for me the biggest issues for drone manufacturers,are going to be the upcoming requirements that governments are placing on them, to produce drones that comply with all the new regulations coming into force in the not to distant future
maybe the next drone from DJI will be a pared down M 3 that is compliant with the open category A2 class of drone who knows
but there is one constant in all this ,and that is soon, being able to fly a decent sized drone ,is going to be a lot more costly, and we the consumer,will have to bear the brunt of those costs, nothing new there then

 

[Gagey52]

Compliance and Regulations will be the biggest issues in the near future. IMO these are the issues that will shut down the industry.
Regards

 

[SmilingOgre]

I have a lot of political feelings regarding this and other things that I currently do uninhibited that appear to be changing. At the end of the day there is no value to expressing those feelings because they will do what they will do. I will fly today and deal with tomorrow when it gets here. It's my only option. As per as feature sets, I have no idea what the majority of people want. A reasonably safe flight with a reasonably safe way to return the drone works for me. Some of the automated patterns are nice on occasion. A great camera is what thrills me. With the 4/3 sensor now flying I would love to see raw files. Ya, I know, that's storage prohibitive today, but we are talking tomorrow. My first computer had a hard drive measured in mega bites.

 

[Chrislaf]

For me I have been considering 'The Way Forward' for a long time with respect to drones. I use my drones for stills photography and occasional video. I follow the regulations and followed them before they became more stringent here in Canada, but I am frustrated by all the drone pilots who flaunt the regulations which result in more stringent regulations for everyone.

Recently when I had to redo my Pilot's licence test to renew it after 2 years, I thought I might as well just buy a Mini 2 or SE instead of getting the drone I want - a real photography drone. I was feeling frustrated that I had to do this just to keep my pilot's licence.

I have come to the conclusion that 'The Way Forward' for me is to buy the drone I have always wanted - a real photography drone (a Mavic 3) that I have delayed so long despite all of the restrictions that I will have to abide by and later on, buy a Mini type drone, probably an SE so that I can have more freedom to fly in places I can't fly.

With regard the M3, do I think the price is high? - yes, but all new tech commands a premium, just look at new mirrorless cameras from Nikon, Canon or Sony. Am I willing to pay that price? - yes, for the basic model. Will I use all of the features? - No, but the secondary camera is attractive to me as I take photos of hard to find/see ruins often buried in foliage so that camera will be useful. Do I think DJI will release a scaled down M3 in the future? - No, the Air 2S is that scaled down model.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

 

[old man mavic]

thanks fellow fliers for your responses so far ,thats the great thing about this forum ,that people have the ability to voice there own opinions
and debate a subject without resorting to political or cultural differences ,after all this is a world wide forum ,and therefor there will be a lot of different thoughts on the subject

 

[Skwirl]

As a new pilot, I was aware of some rules and read about remote id stuff last year. It stopped me from buying a drone then. This year I thought, well its not any worse so why not. Now with the incidents Ive read about I dont think its possible for the FAA to not do something. Which may affect my future drone use. I'm just a recreational pilot and fly when I have time. I live on a larger property which is mostly farm fields and fly here. So, I really dont need a bunch of rules, common sense can guide me just fine. I thought about later this year taking the drone and riding my motocycle some place and fly a little. So I'll need to stay informed on any changes. But, for having some fun every once and a while theres only so many rules and regs I'm willing to deal with. Theres a point where the fun goes away. It would be disappoiting if that happens, but a few bad apples really can spoil the sauce.

 

[Johnmcl7]

Hi fellow fliers
this thread is about my thoughts on what the future of the hobby side of drone ownership is going to be like
it is purely about the drones that we fly ,for what ever reason ,and not the professional drones used by the commercial industry ,they are a whole different breed
it seems that recent new drones coming on the market ,are being produced in at least two variant's
those with as many bells and whistles as can be accommodated
and those with a lesser amount of bells and whistles,
and i think that DJI missed a trick there with the M 3,a version without all the obstacle avoidance and fancy RTH features, with a camera minus the separate zoom part ,at a price that many more people could afford ,or be prepared to pay would have been a good seller

I doubt removing such features would have any real reduction in the price of the drone because the hardware needed is not expensive and there would be costs on the short term to develop the different SKU both software and hardware and long term because you're going to need to maintain separate software for every update. I can't see many people choosing a model with no OA for a slight reduction in price, it's not a feature I've ever used but still glad to have it since it may well save my expensive drone at some point.

I've no interest in the small sensor telephoto camera either but again, it likely cost very little in hardware to add it to the drone but it's a strong selling point to advertise the drone since telephoto is rare in this class of drone. The more drones DJI can sell, the better the price and looking at the M3 forum section there are a number of people finding it useful. The 4/3 sensor is likely a good chunk of the hardware cost but removing that would remove one of the primary reasons to buy the M3 over an Air 2s or upgrade from a Mavic 2 Pro.

There's been long running criticism of DSLRs and mirrorless cameras adding a video feature so they're paying extra for something they don't want or need. Except they're likely paying less to get a video model because it doesn't cost the manufacturer to add the video feature (since the cameras have a number of high speed imaging features) and by adding the video feature they can sell to video people and photo people which in turn can lower the price.

I don't think the government is going to heavily price consumer drone users, in the UK the current £9 license and system is reasonable and they chose this over much more restrictive options. In the discussion about the Autel vs DJI geofencing approach I do think governments may require drones to have geofencing and other software restrictions. I do have concerns about restrictions going too far since I mostly fly my drone out of mobile phone coverage so wouldn't want it to be grounded in those conditions because it can't do an online check. However I can understand the need for software restrictions since there's so many people on this forum who blatantly disregard the rules and this should be the more responsible end of drone ownerships.

 

[eEridani]

One only need look at cell phones to see the future of drones. Who really uses four cameras on their phone, yet some phones have them. Even cheap phones have two rear cameras, three counting the front cam. Built in obsolescence, too. Batteries that last a year, two if you're careful with charging. Apps that track you for marketing purposes are part of the phone design process as both iOS and Android pander to advertisers to ensure tracking is always on.

As for the M3, DJI thinks they needed the Hasselblad name for competitive reasons. I'd be happier with a common 4/3rds camera sensor with an interchangeable lens mount than the Hasselblad logo. Let me choose wide, normal or tele in preflight.

IMHO, where DJI is missing the boat is they lock a given drone into a given gimbal and camera and lens. Why not allow changing out a 12MP for a 20MP? Weight and balance, flight times, they all matter, but let users make the trade off. Maybe an M3 with the A2S camera is all a person wants? Plus, not carrying around the hefty Hasselblad will allow more flight time. Or a mini with the A2S camera, but willing to accept shorter flights. Then again, DJI offers such a beast, though only in their pro line up.

The industry needs more competition. However, with laws slowly eroding the airspace where drones can be used legally, manufacturers may see it as a non-starter marketplace. That leaves the rich guy and criminals as the only tangible market.

 

[Johnmcl7]

As much as I would like the flexibility the Mavic range is very much optimised for size and weight especially small units like the Minis so the more units you support, the less optimal the drone is. Also looking at the price of a Mavic 2 Pro gimbal it's £400 to £500 so I wonder how big the market would be for people who want to buy gimbals rather than just buy the drone with the sensor they want. Although that said I think a quick release gimbal is a good idea for drones given how likely they are to be damaged in a crash even just to be able to easily replace the same camera module.

 

[Chrislaf]

Ideally I would love to have an interchangeable lens consumer camera drone at a reasonable cost, but I realize that there is likely not much of a market for it and if there was, the price would likely be way more than I would be willing to spend. The Mavic 3 price is a hard pill to swallow but I look at it this way. I have spent way more $$$ on my two DSLR camera bodies and lenses than I will likely spend on the M3. Also, the 3/4 sensor on the M3 will likely be around for awhile now that DJI has it in the Mavic line.

Chris

 

[old man mavic]

@Johnmcl7 with regards to the cost in respect of drone ownership ,i agree that to fly a drone currently in the UK and possibly most of Europe ,is not really that expensive ,in respect of the costs ,pertaining to a drone operator licence ,as you say currently £9 a year in the UK
my reason for saying that costs will rise is because if you have an A2 C of C then you will have till the end of 2022 ,to continue flying as you do now.
at this time these courses seem to have a cost around the £100 pound mark ,and will be compulsory ,for flying any of the new C classified drones in the A2 sub category ,of the open category, so that cost will have to be factored in to the cost of drone ownership .
and then of course there is the issue of the drone having to be conspicuous to other aircraft and Law enforcement ,which will involve a cost ,which will be passed onto the consumer,while these things are some way off right now ,they are coming ,and its these things that my original post was aimed at
this reply is to your Post #7

 

[Johnmcl7]

I don't agree with your assessment of the drone rules, as I understand it the new rules are going to make it cheaper.

The A2 sub category is not comparable to the current rules at all, the existing 'drone code' rules prevent you flying your drone near people and buildings so if you don't take the course you can continue flying your drone as you are now keeping it away from buildings and people. The distances are slightly longer in some cases under the A3 rules compared to the current rules but since you're already meant to be maintaining a distance, it's not like you're allowed to be useably close under existing rules.

Under the drone code rules if you wanted to shoot professionally the only option was a pricey course whereas under the new rules, you can pay a much more reasonable £100 which is a fraction of the cost which rather than a downside as you see it I think is a fantastic option. From time to time people want my photography services which I do for free as I have some very nice camera equipment but when they've asked for drone footage, I've had to refuse because it was in no way viable for me to spend four figure sums but now there's an affordable option for it. Also I think those rules in keeping drones away from people are entirely sensible and those who need to be flying near people should have additional costs like liability insurance.

Over the years I've been on the drone forums there's this persistent doom and gloom that round the corner there's going to be regulations that bring an end to the hobby and years later it's bigger than it every was. Governments have had plenty options to shut the industry done but haven't done so and I don't believe it's going to happen either. I can certainly see the drones being restricted in time to force them to follow the rules in software but I blame that on the many people who won't follow the rules.

 

[SmilingOgre]

Here in the states they're talking remote id along with enhanced GPS locating systems. Some if the initial systems looked at would be very expensive to implement. If they don't grandfather existing drones and spec locating systems that can't be achieved by firmware updates, there will be a lot paper weights around. To date it doesn't sound like the hobbyist is being considered.

 

[eEridani]

Here in the states they're talking remote id along with enhanced GPS locating systems. Some if the initial systems looked at would be very expensive to implement. If they don't grandfather existing drones and spec locating systems that can't be achieved by firmware updates, there will be a lot paper weights around. To date it doesn't sound like the hobbyist is being considered.

Not sure that's true. GPS is already on the DJI drone, accurate enough for the purposes of RID, and RID can be as simple as a few extra packets sent via WiFi to some IPv6 address assigned for listening.

Somewhere I even read DJI is ready for RID with a firmware update once the final FAA rules are in place.

FAA Remote ID: What it Means for You and Your DJI Drone

As drones became more common, governments around the world have developed rules to encourage safe and productive drone flights while protecting airplanes and helicopters in the air as well as people and property on the ground. Now, a big part of the new era of drone regulation is about to take...

viewpoints.dji.com

 

[old man mavic]

@Johnmcl7 first of all ,i am not spelling doom and gloom ,about the future of the hobby,here in the UK ,i was saying that in the future the changes coming into force ,will have a financial impact on the cost of drone flying for hobby fliers ,in the UK
while i agree that removing the requirement for a PFCO (now a GVC) for being able to gain financial reward ,with your drone ,was a good step ,it is still going to be a cost to the hobby flier ,for the A2 C of C if they wish to fly anything heavier than a 250g drone
at no point in my posts have i said the end of the hobby is imminent ,if like me, other people wish to fly a drone over 250g ,then like me they will get there A2 C of C purchase a C2 class drone ,and enjoy the added benefits ,of reduced separation distances from uninvolved people, that will be available with such a drone ,or they can just fly a small light drone in the A1 category

we and others are going to have differing opinions ,on how the hobby in the UK will look in the future ,and the impact that the new legislation for drone fliers will have on the hobby ,only time will tell

 

[SmilingOgre]

Not sure that's true. GPS is already on the DJI drone, accurate enough for the purposes of RID, and RID can be as simple as a few extra packets sent via WiFi to some IPv6 address assigned for listening.

Somewhere I even read DJI is ready for RID with a firmware update once the final FAA rules are in place.

FAA Remote ID: What it Means for You and Your DJI Drone

As drones became more common, governments around the world have developed rules to encourage safe and productive drone flights while protecting airplanes and helicopters in the air as well as people and property on the ground. Now, a big part of the new era of drone regulation is about to take...

viewpoints.dji.com

Great article! My only trusted source is Greg from Pilot Institute. I don't have a hotline to the FAA so I can't validate any of the information directly. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Chaosrider]

A couple of things:

1) The entire paradigm of imposing harsher regulations on everyone because of a small number of egregious violators is fundamentally Evil. Catch and cook the Bad Guys, and leave everyone else alone.

2) As a Libertarian, I'm not often fond of new government requirements. However, I think RID is going to be beneficial to the kind of drone flying that I most want to do: extended BVLOS to interesting places. It will assist in the quantification of risks in various conditions, and rule changes that will reflect the increased understanding.

3) If you want to fly outside of rural, low population density areas, in other than Class G airspace, in any condition other than hard VLOS, there are going to be gradually increasing requirements for both the aircraft and the pilots, in order to do so. On balance, I think the rules will be reasonable, and not excessively expensive.

TCS