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To fly or not to fly ?

Given the circumstances below, would you have taken off for a flight session ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • No

    Votes: 15 88.2%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 1 5.9%

  • Total voters
    17

AeroJ

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Sep 13, 2018
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Location
South East, UK
Imagine you have hiked 2 miles uphill with your M4P, on a country trail to reach a hilltop field, where several (mainly) successful flights have gone on before (albeit with much bigger, heavier drones)...

Sometimes there are military aircraft (previously limited to Chinooks, which we can hear about 5 mins before they appear !), but not usually at weekends, and this was a Sunday night. There is usually some sort of hawk activity in the general area, but their patrols and territory seem to be vastly larger than the relatively small VLOS area I try and fly in. However, that evening there were 2 huge red kites that kept circling overhead as I considered whether to fly. I also counted at least 5 sparrow hawks or similarly sized raptors, and they too were 'in my area', or rather, I was in theirs ! Sometimes these things disperse when you launch, but I am also aware that sometimes they don't ! I am also aware that the tiny M4P doesn't quite have the 'presence' that a large hex has, so may be too small to intimidate hawks. Probably not too small that they don't feel a need to get it out of their aerial territory though !

Then I heard an unusual building roar in the distance, and just 3 seconds later 2 full-on fighter jets appeared over the treeline at what I estimated to be no more than 150 ft from the canopy, only about 300 ft from my position, and sped off at what I can best describe as 'hyper-speed' off into the distance ! This gave me 'the willies' about my flight session.

And the wind had also picked up by now. In UAV forecast winds were slated to be no more than 20 mph gusting at 400 ft, but up here on the hill brow there were sporadic updrafts and a fairly strong prevailing wind, which was blowing away from the hill - ie I would be flying with it on the way out and against it on the way back. I might have felt comfortable with that on my old Typhoon H, (a powerfully wind-resistant hex jobby) but my little M4P is untested here, and if it goes down in the acres of woods around, recovery will be somewhere between hard and impossible and almost certainly in a high tree, AND it was 8 pm at night, so I had another hour or so of daylight left, and I didn't want to be doing any sort of recovery in the dark !

I stayed up there for a good 20 mins, humming and haa-ing about whether to fly or not. The birds didn't really go away, and the jets were a one-off it seemed, but wind was still high and the wrong direction, there were some slow predictable civilian helicopters at a lower altitude than I was, but it all conspired, and in the end I called it as 'unsafe', and completed the tedious 2km walk of shame home with no footage but a working drone !

By the time I got back I was knackered, hadn't eaten enough and was feeling tired and light-headed, so didn't even feel up to finding another fly site, and drove home feeling a bit cowardly, un-daring and risk-averse. Perhaps it's because I don't have DJI refresh ! ;)

Just wondered, would you M4P guys have flown in such circumstances ? The view would have been worth 'some modest risk'.
 
I would not have. I have not flown in "must less" conditions because there are just too many places to fly locally to not just move on. However, if I were out of town, the answer might be different. A 2-mile walk locally doesn't change my answer. But I have to ask, for what reason, why did you want to fly there? Is there something there you wish to see or photograph? I understand people have different needs and different desires but I can't think of any reason why I would want to fly in the area you described which is why I don't place too much important on "location" as much as I do "circumstances." I get nervous when I see single-engine small planes flying 150 feet up and 300 feet away so if a supersonic military jet flew by just "150 feet off the canopy" at high speeds, I wouldn't be there with/without a drone. But that's just me. Also birds and bird counting, I don't do that.
 
why did you want to fly there?
It is one of the rare local(ish) beauty spots that is publicly accessible, but hardly known or frequented by anyone except the very occasional hiker, and more notably isn't ruined by being owned by the National Trust or English Heritage for a start ! Nearly everything else round here (that isn't a local park with nothing interesting to see in it) is. For me that is reason enough, but this is the top of Ashford Hangers escarpments, and is truly breathtaking views all the way to South Coast. It is possibly even better than Harting Down or Butser in that regard (the only other 2 notable hilltops near me).

I don't place too much important on "location" as much as I do "circumstances." I get nervous when I see single-engine small planes flying 150 feet up and 300 feet away so if a supersonic military jet flew by just "150 feet off the canopy" at high speeds, I wouldn't be there with/without a drone. But that's just me. Also birds and bird counting, I don't do that.
Thanks. I guess I am a little different to you in that I will launch if it is ONLY a few birds in the general area (ie not focused on my TOAL area) and conditions are otherwise ideal. Glad to know I am not the only one who would have abandoned flight tho. It was the accumulation of the 3 things; the planes, the birds, + the wind that put me off in this instance.

I have never seen jets up there before, or anywhere round here ever ! All the RAF stuff is normally the slow movers. The speedsters were totally unexpected. However it took me an hour or so to get back to the car and they didn't reappear at all in that time, so it was just an unlucky one-off pass-thru by the looks of it, and that particular element of danger had truly passed in the time I would have been in the sky. But of course I didn't know that then ! I do have the number of the RAF flight advice line, which perhaps I should have called on the Friday beforehand (not even open phones on weekends).

I didn't mind the walk - it was quite nice regardless despite the gradients ! :)
 
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Imagine you have hiked 2 miles uphill with your M4P, on a country trail to reach a hilltop field, where several (mainly) successful flights have gone on before (albeit with much bigger, heavier drones)...

Sometimes there are military aircraft (previously limited to Chinooks, which we can hear about 5 mins before they appear !), but not usually at weekends, and this was a Sunday night. There is usually some sort of hawk activity in the general area, but their patrols and territory seem to be vastly larger than the relatively small VLOS area I try and fly in. However, that evening there were 2 huge red kites that kept circling overhead as I considered whether to fly. I also counted at least 5 sparrow hawks or similarly sized raptors, and they too were 'in my area', or rather, I was in theirs ! Sometimes these things disperse when you launch, but I am also aware that sometimes they don't ! I am also aware that the tiny M4P doesn't quite have the 'presence' that a large hex has, so may be too small to intimidate hawks. Probably not too small that they don't feel a need to get it out of their aerial territory though !

Then I heard an unusual building roar in the distance, and just 3 seconds later 2 full-on fighter jets appeared over the treeline at what I estimated to be no more than 150 ft from the canopy, only about 300 ft from my position, and sped off at what I can best describe as 'hyper-speed' off into the distance ! This gave me 'the willies' about my flight session.

And the wind had also picked up by now. In UAV forecast winds were slated to be no more than 20 mph gusting at 400 ft, but up here on the hill brow there were sporadic updrafts and a fairly strong prevailing wind, which was blowing away from the hill - ie I would be flying with it on the way out and against it on the way back. I might have felt comfortable with that on my old Typhoon H, (a powerfully wind-resistant hex jobby) but my little M4P is untested here, and if it goes down in the acres of woods around, recovery will be somewhere between hard and impossible and almost certainly in a high tree, AND it was 8 pm at night, so I had another hour or so of daylight left, and I didn't want to be doing any sort of recovery in the dark !

I stayed up there for a good 20 mins, humming and haa-ing about whether to fly or not. The birds didn't really go away, and the jets were a one-off it seemed, but wind was still high and the wrong direction, there were some slow predictable civilian helicopters at a lower altitude than I was, but it all conspired, and in the end I called it as 'unsafe', and completed the tedious 2km walk of shame home with no footage but a working drone !

By the time I got back I was knackered, hadn't eaten enough and was feeling tired and light-headed, so didn't even feel up to finding another fly site, and drove home feeling a bit cowardly, un-daring and risk-averse. Perhaps it's because I don't have DJI refresh ! ;)

Just wondered, would you M4P guys have flown in such circumstances ? The view would have been worth 'some modest risk'.
You made the right call! Two thumbs up.
 
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In addition, I have all but abandoned the mini drones as serious when it comes to reliability and dependability. I have lost many days where I wasn't able to fly the mini due to wind. Not so much for my current M3P but for sure with my previous MM and M2. Perhaps the drone can handle the wind but maybe it's me, the flyer, who don't care to take the risk and battle the almost constant windy conditions where I live. The wind alone would have caused me to turn back in your situation. Never strong when I leave home, picks up while enroute, wherever I land it's gale force. :(
 
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In addition, I have all but abandoned the mini drones as serious when it comes to reliability and dependability. I have lost many days where I wasn't able to fly the mini due to wind. Not so much for my current M3P but for sure with my previous MM and M2. Perhaps the drone can handle the wind but maybe it's me, the flyer, who don't care to take the risk and battle the almost constant windy conditions where I live. The wind alone would have caused me to turn back in your situation. Never strong when I leave home, picks up while enroute, wherever I land it's gale force. :(
Yes, a top wind resistance speed of 36 mph isn't ideal for the UK, but like so many others I was attracted back into the hobby by the increased amount of places I could theoretically fly it. I hadn't really thought much about how many of my old sites would be compromised by high wind.

Right now, it's 20 mph constantly and gusts up to 27 in my practice field just down the road. That is too high for me, even though it is within the limits of what my thing can do - I like to float majestically about in Cine mode most of the time, which can't really fight much above 10 mph. It's not often I try and go up big hills, but there are days when there is almost nothing, and only gentle gusts and it seems worthwhile venturing up high, even with a tiny one. Yesterday was notably NOT one of those days :)
 
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With passage of the jets there is no way I would have flown. I think there is a contact number for checking on RAF etc. flights.

If you have cause to ask yourself is this too windy then, IMO, it is, and certainly not for a downwind flight.
I have flown upwind when it was questionable and the drone RTH'ed in the hover position, that was interesting but I have also seen a P3 taken by a gust and there wasn't a darn thing I could do about it, fortunately the gust died and on a much earlier occasion just creep across the ground into a head wind.
 
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I think there is a contact number for checking on RAF etc. flights.
There is (0800 515544), but their phones are not manned at the weekends. In my post above I lament not having the foresight to call them on Friday, but I tend not to bother them in the week unless I know I am definitely going to fly, which I never do much before I get there, and I like to give 'em at least a couple of hours notice for them to get it into their conflict scheduler !

The jets alone would not make me abandon the session unless they appeared more than once. If they are in transit anywhere their appearance should be one time only, whereas if they are doing manoeuvres in the area I will be able to hear them often and consistently. But that one-off appearance does mean I have to wait on the ground for half an hour to see if there is a repeat before I will take off !
 
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As long as you stay close to the ground, it doesn't really matter. You have plenty of room under 60 meters, or even under 30 if you are afraid of planes, suddenly starting to chop trees.

If the planets align, the lighting is good and the pic is worth it, I usually fly no matter what ( the best pics are usually shot during the worst conditions). Otherwise, I evaluate the surroundings and if it's too windy or the area too crowded, I just don't fly there, specially if I'm not familiar with the terrain.
 
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As long as you stay close to the ground, it doesn't really matter. You have plenty of room under 60 meters, or even under 30 if you are afraid of planes, suddenly starting to chop trees.

Funnily enough, with hindsight I think I might have got away with that. Had the jets not spooked me, I might have done so with the other hazards in place, especially if the birds had moved off. I would at least have got to see how the M4P behaves in wind at that level, although I have better, safer places to try that sort of test.
 
Hats-off. I think you made a 100% correct decision based on available facts. Jets flying NOTE practise runs? it was a reasonable assumption that the event would be repeated.
 
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In case anyone would be interested here is the last Typhoon H flight I did there several years ago.
And its independently moving 360 degree gimbal is amazing, so pleased I got those shots.

But the M4P camera is even higher quality, so I gotta get it again in Summer, and again in Autumn when it all goes multicoloured and more wonderful still...

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You made the correct decision. I've flown my M4P in 20 kt winds with good picture quality. Sometimes the RC2 displays a high wind warning higher up when there's no wind at takeoff...Even flying 20 meters below a high speed jet and the turbulence could sent your drone into a spin. I worry more about the hawks, I've been followed home many times, but only during daytime hours. I fret more about harming the birds rather than the drone.
 
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I went all the way back up there today ! This time we had not much wind, no hawks, and no jets !! In fact I don't think I saw another bit of manned aviation below 5000 ft in the whole hour and a half I was up there ! But when I arrived, there was a single big black bank of cloud obscuring the golden hour sun, and of course that waited until I had unpacked the craft, and then let loose with the rain, meaning I had to improvise a cover with the landing pad. THIS time I had brought a cup of tea with me, so parked myself under the landing pad as well, and waited for the cloud to go, which it did 15 mins later ! And that left me with clear skies, a slightly higher wind than before, but this one was manageable and in vaguely the right direction, so 2 full 25 min flights were had, and I am transferring the footage now, which I hope will be amazing ! :D There was a brief moment of extreme compass weirdness where the RC2 started clicking a lot (not a sound I have heard it do before !) and the radar display on the craft went temporarily nuts with home point indicators and craft orientation zipping around and going properly mental while I was up at 400 ft, and it seemed like it stopped following orders briefly, which was a bit worrying. Kept checking RC signal and satellites which remained at 4 bars, and 28 all the while ! Anyway, I dropped altitude a bit, and normality was soon restored and remained for the rest of the flight, but I do wanna know what that was about, so will check the log and screen record later.

Perseverance wins the day, and now I got my footage AND my craft back safely ! Yay :)
 
The only issue you mention that would have grounded me was the wind.
 
I do love a good detective hunt... and I've just emerged, Poirot like and victorious, from a minor one prompted by the moments of weirdness I had whilst at 400 ft over that hill yesterday.

As reported above I was hovering up waay high and suddenly heard my RC2 making weird clicking noises, and the radar display was madly changing the position of my home point and craft locators, making me think we were having some sort of serious GPS / IMU / compass related errors, and in trying to descend after that it seemed that the craft was refusing to do so ! This appeared to sort itself out after about 20 seconds, and normal flight resumed.

All a bit worrying, so I felt it necessary to go get the screen recording file, and the logs, and to review my headcam footage so I could try and work out what went wrong. and...

and soon as I reviewed the screen capture I knew what had happened and I had a lovely Columbo moment with the realisation...

1722168534381.png

See that little white dot over the top left corner ?! Twatty Aero-J over here was inadvertently letting the meaty part of my thumb overhang the button that swaps centre focus, resulting in it swapping between display modes about 20 times in a second, and that indeed was the clicking I could hear emitting from the RC2 !

The loss of downward authority shortly afterwards was merely updraft from wind and the fact that Cine flight mode doesn't do much to oppose it !

So, long story short, nothing to worry about on the craft, and I need to be more attentive as to which bits of my hands are hanging over that screen ! :oops:
 
The loss of downward authority shortly afterwards was merely updraft from wind and the fact that Cine flight mode doesn't do much to oppose it !

So, long story short, nothing to worry about on the craft, and I need to be more attentive as to which bits of my hands are hanging over that screen ! :oops:
You might like to upload the flight's .txt log to Phantom help's logviewer, then download and open the CSV, then do a search for "current [A]" and check what the current was during the attempted descent. Ditto look for "zspeed [mph]".
It's just a pity the blooming screen device DATs are encrypted otherwise you could check the motor rpm.
 

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