Just started a role as Ops Chief for a fleet of 65 drones. Everyone is 107 certified. When flying for company (commercial) 107 applies and when flying for fun Trust applies and 107 does not come into play. I have not pushed Trust yet, have bigger fish to fry right now. Did alert the group to Trust and regulation but nothing more. My logic is: we provide them a company drone for company use only (job sites and training), not to for personal use. Since the drone should only be used for company business, Trust should never apply to our flights. If they fly personal drone then Trust would apply but since that is their private life, don't care because it would not involve company. Thoughts?
Trust vs. 107
- Thread starter Dmcvey
- Start date
I can definitely see not allowing company equipment to be used for personal recreational flights.
I would not use my own personal equipment for company work.
If your employees fly recreationally on their own time they need to take the TRUST as that is part of the requirements to qualify for the 44809 exception.
I would not use my own personal equipment for company work.
If your employees fly recreationally on their own time they need to take the TRUST as that is part of the requirements to qualify for the 44809 exception.
Your company pilots that have only a 107 certification have to follow ALL of the rules under 107 during each (and every) flight they conduct with any drone. Whether they are making money, or are on the clock at work is irrelevant. If they want to fly their personal drone while away from work, the same applies. They should know this. They are the responsible party (not you) in terms of any flight 'they' conduct as a 107 certificated pilot. There is no rule that says any or all flights under 107 must be work related or make money - just that they adhere to the rules of 107.
That said: If they want to fly under the terms of the recreational carve out, they are responsible to have the Trust Certification for those flights.
vindibona1
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What kind of business are you in that you control 65 drones? Amazon?
I'm a little confused. Everyone, Part 107 or not is supposed to get the Trust certificate. I feel that it confusing with shades of gray. TRUST aside, it has been my understanding that all a Part 107 pilot has to do is have the intent to fly recreationally when he/she chooses. When flying recreationally it would seem that you just follow the recreational rules. I mean seriously. You're not going to file and ATC form that says "I'm flying recreationally today". You just go out and fly with the restrictions (and benefits) of being a recreational pilot in that moment. OTOH, you can go out for fun and see something cool and think, "Maybe some time down the road I can submit this footage for stock. But for now it's just for my enjoyment".
IMO as far as the OP's question, once his employees aren't on the clock if Part 107 certified they can fly on their own and do whatever suits the situation. It is important to understand that the "intent" of the classification extends into the future. It can be confusing especially for those with Part 107 certs as the rules aren't exactly clear. Without a Part 107 the rules seem to be clearer. But again, once the employee is off the clock it would seem that none of it is the employer's concern unless they're flying with company property.
At the end of 2021, being 107 certified I went out and shot some footage that after editing ended up being a nice holiday greeting type of thing. I had no intent INITIALLY using it commercially, but a client saw it and wanted to use it. In the process of flying/shooting I did not do anything that wouldn't be 100% kosher under recreational rules. It would only seem logical that a Part 107 would be able to fly recreationally but down the road use the footage commercially. It would make no sense to tell a 107 pilot that "you were shooting recreationally at that time so any footage you have cannot be used commercially". But there have been instances of FAA backwards logic. I believe that a very short time ago a recreational pilot could go out and shoot at nice but a Part 107 pilot needed to apply for a night waiver (yes?).
I'm a little confused. Everyone, Part 107 or not is supposed to get the Trust certificate. I feel that it confusing with shades of gray. TRUST aside, it has been my understanding that all a Part 107 pilot has to do is have the intent to fly recreationally when he/she chooses. When flying recreationally it would seem that you just follow the recreational rules. I mean seriously. You're not going to file and ATC form that says "I'm flying recreationally today". You just go out and fly with the restrictions (and benefits) of being a recreational pilot in that moment. OTOH, you can go out for fun and see something cool and think, "Maybe some time down the road I can submit this footage for stock. But for now it's just for my enjoyment".
IMO as far as the OP's question, once his employees aren't on the clock if Part 107 certified they can fly on their own and do whatever suits the situation. It is important to understand that the "intent" of the classification extends into the future. It can be confusing especially for those with Part 107 certs as the rules aren't exactly clear. Without a Part 107 the rules seem to be clearer. But again, once the employee is off the clock it would seem that none of it is the employer's concern unless they're flying with company property.
At the end of 2021, being 107 certified I went out and shot some footage that after editing ended up being a nice holiday greeting type of thing. I had no intent INITIALLY using it commercially, but a client saw it and wanted to use it. In the process of flying/shooting I did not do anything that wouldn't be 100% kosher under recreational rules. It would only seem logical that a Part 107 would be able to fly recreationally but down the road use the footage commercially. It would make no sense to tell a 107 pilot that "you were shooting recreationally at that time so any footage you have cannot be used commercially". But there have been instances of FAA backwards logic. I believe that a very short time ago a recreational pilot could go out and shoot at nice but a Part 107 pilot needed to apply for a night waiver (yes?).
brett8883
Well-Known Member
If it were me I would suggest to them they just always fly under part 107 rules. You probably can’t tell them what they can and can’t do off the job but we’ve seen time and time again on this forum people (especially part 107 pilots ironically) have incredible trouble keeping the two sets of rules separate.
Rich QR
Well-Known Member
Read 44809. It tells you exactly what the consequence is if you attempt to fly recreationally without the TRUST exam. The consequence is that the flight would fall under Part 107 rules. If you have a Part 107 certificate and are not violating any Part 107 rules, no problem!
Part 107 allows flight for any purpose, recreational or not.
The TRUST exam is only required to fly under 44809. But there aren't many reasons to do that if you hold a 107 certificate.
Part 107 allows flight for any purpose, recreational or not.
The TRUST exam is only required to fly under 44809. But there aren't many reasons to do that if you hold a 107 certificate.
If it is written into their contract of employment that company drones must not be used for recreational flights, I would not worry about it , however all company equipment should be marked for company use only. Think that would have discharged your responsibility as a Company. If then your employee disregards those clear instructions and are somehow caught flying illegally you , I would think are able to prove that your Company Rules were disregarded and the onus is on the drone pilot, my opinion only, cheers Len
I'm not sure I'm tracking here.
If you have your 107, is it then not necessary to have a TRUST certificate? I thought the TRUST certificate was required for ALL drone pilots. Is that not the case?
I have both, so I'm not worried about it for myself, but I'd like to make sure I understand how this works.
Thx,
TCS
Rich QR
Well-Known Member
The TRUST certificate is required for everyone who flies under 44809, and it is required only for 44809 flights. If you have a Part 107 certificate, you have the option of doing all your flights under Part 107. You don't need a TRUST certificate to fly under 107, and part 107 allows flights for recreational purposes (it places no restrictions on the purpose of flights under 107).
If you don't comply with ALL of the eight limitations of 44809, the consequence of your failure to comply is that your flight falls under Part 107, and you're responsible for complying with Part 107. That's normally pretty easy for someone with a Part 107 certificate to comply with.
Why would someone with a Part 107 license want to fly under 44809? Maybe to fly an unregistered drone weighing less than 250g? Other than that, most flights that would be legal under 44809 are also legal under 107, for someone who holds the proper license.
The way I see it, there's very little advantage for a Part 107 holder to get a TRUST certificate, but there's no cost and it's easy, so there's virtually no downside. I have one, but I don't expect to ever use it. All my flights are legal under Part 107.
EDIT: I see this was already addressed by Rich QR but since I already wrote it . . . .
Any pilot that wants to fly under the 44809 exception must have taken TRUST. However the is no rule that requires a commercial pilot to do so.
In the early days of 107 (prior to the 44809 exception) there were reasons a Pilot might want to conduct a flight under recreational rules if he/she were 107. For example recreational flyer could fly at night, 107s needed a waiver. This didn't mean they could conduct a commercial night flight but many of us that wanted to fly at night did so as a recreational flight.
Now that things have changed there are very few reasons a 107 would need to conduct a flight under the 44809 exception. The only one I can think of (and it's really silly) is: If a 107 pilot bought a sub 250 gram drone and did not want to register it. In this case he would have to take trust and only conduct recreational flights with that particular aircraft.
OK, this is consistent with my understanding, but an open question remains:
Under what conditions, if any, is it legal to fly under 44809, but not legal to fly under 107?
Thx
OK, that answers my question.
And that *IS* a really silly case!
Or maybe not...all of my DJI drones ae registered, but none of my Holy Stone drones are (all well under 250 g). So if I'm understanding you correctly, I need the TRUST certificate to legally fly my unregistered Holy Stone drones?
I have my TRUST, so that's not a problem. I'm just looking for clarity about the rule.
Thx
That is correct. Not having to register does not relieve the need to take the TRUST to fly under 44809.
Yes, correct. Since those drones are not registered to fly under your 107 the only way you can fly them is under the 44809 exception and to do that - you need TRUST
brett8883
Well-Known Member
Part 107 has restrictions for flying over people and moving vehicles, 44809 does not.
Part 107 has restrictions for flying in certain weather conditions, 44809 does not.
Part 107 has restrictions for flying at night, in particular regarding navigation lighting, 44809 does not.
Those are the big ones I can think of off the top but part 107 has pages and pages of very specific rules where as 44809 is just a handful of short rules so to point out all the differences would take some a whole lot of time.
The second rule of 44809 requires you follow the safety guidelines of an existing CBO - Community Based Organization. That means; in addition to the eight rules, there are others that recreational flyers must adhere to.
From AC 91-57B - The FAA Advisory Circular meant to give additional safety guidance in regards to 44809 clearly states that they have not 'officially' recognized any CBO.s . . . However, they do say for now you can follow either the AMA's guidelines or the ones the FAA has cobbled together. If you read the underlined section below you will see that you need to be able to recognize exactly which you are flying under . . . . .more below.
This is key, because if you are following the basic safety guidelines offered (for the interim) from the FAA - (https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_fliers/) what @brett8883 says above is true - for now.
However - If you claim you are following the AMA's safety guidelines, then you will find that that flights over people or in certain weather conditions are not allowed in a similar fashion to what is in 107. Eventually this loophole will be filled and recreational flyers will be following a set of rules almost identical to the current AMA SGs
For any recreational flyers that have not seen the AMA safety guidelines, here you go AMA SAFTEY GUIDLINES
From AC 91-57B - The FAA Advisory Circular meant to give additional safety guidance in regards to 44809 clearly states that they have not 'officially' recognized any CBO.s . . . However, they do say for now you can follow either the AMA's guidelines or the ones the FAA has cobbled together. If you read the underlined section below you will see that you need to be able to recognize exactly which you are flying under . . . . .more below.
7.1.2 The Aircraft is Operated in Accordance With or Within the Programming of a CBO’s Set of Safety Guidelines That are Developed in Coordination With the FAA. Once the FAA has developed the criteria for recognition of CBOs and started officially recognizing CBOs, those CBOs’ safety guidelines will be available for use. During this interim period, the FAA offers two means to satisfy this statutory condition. Recreational flyers should be able to explain to an FAA inspector or law enforcement official which safety guidelines they are following.
This is key, because if you are following the basic safety guidelines offered (for the interim) from the FAA - (https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_fliers/) what @brett8883 says above is true - for now.
However - If you claim you are following the AMA's safety guidelines, then you will find that that flights over people or in certain weather conditions are not allowed in a similar fashion to what is in 107. Eventually this loophole will be filled and recreational flyers will be following a set of rules almost identical to the current AMA SGs
For any recreational flyers that have not seen the AMA safety guidelines, here you go AMA SAFTEY GUIDLINES
Clarifying, thanks.
I'm an AMA member, and I glanced at their rules, and I comply with them to the best of my understanding.
I have zero interest in flying over people or in funky weather, so I think I'm good on that score.
I also don't fly the Holy Stones much anymore...
When an issue arises, deepest pocket is the first defendant. Your drone, your problem. IIWY, I would make sure that my general liability carrier was aware of the details of your operation and the likelihood that a company owned drone could be used improperly off duty.
All true but until they change the rules I am flying under the basic safety guidelines offered (for the interim) from the FAA. Easy enough.
Also for 107 every drone has to be individually registered. For 44809, registration is only needed for drones over 249g and a single registration can be used for any number of drones.
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