Awaiting 29 Dec Pre Trial Hearing.

[Dmcvey]

That isn't the purpose of TRUST. This is for new pilots to learn the rules. If an LEO rolls up on someone without TRUST, they're supposed to educate them about it. It was never designed to be used as an enforcement mechanism unless there we extenuating circumstances (such as repeated warnings, aggressive response, etc.)

This should have ended in a handshake and a promise from James that he'll get his TRUST.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Trust is for Rec flyer to learn the rules and safety information. but the law says you must pass it before flying. Trust is to educate rec flyers BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO PASS THE TEST before flying.

What is TRUST?​

The law requires that all recreational flyers pass an aeronautical knowledge and safety test and provide proof of passage if asked by law enforcement or FAA personnel. The Recreational UAS Safety Test (TRUST) was developed to meet this requirement.

TRUST provides education and testing on important safety and regulatory information. If you fly your drone recreationally under the Exception for Recreational Flyers, you must pass the test before you fly.

You can't buy a car and just drive, "Sorry officer, didn't know I needed a license to drive" You're still getting a ticket.

IMO every drone sold needs to be bricked until you enter a 107 or Trust number before it will fly.

 

[Dmcvey]

Seems it's ALWAYS about the $$$

I agree with the no-fly drone over stadiums because no one wants 50 drones buzzing around during games. But this is done every week.

 

[Vic Moss]

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

Definitely not "Wrong, Wrong, Wrong". The FAA is not using this as punishment. They want this to be used as an educational tool. They don't want LEOs to use it as a hammer. And the one who confronted Mr. Fentress not only had no idea about the TFR (sad, considering they were with the anti-terrorism team), they didn't know what to do with lack of TRUST. They obviously have not been in contact with their local FSDO or LEAP Agent.

I'm part of the group working with the FAA trying to get the word out about TRUST. I also am writing the training for FAASTeam members to work with LEOs when they're called out about drones flying around. I know what TRUST is, what it's intended use is.

My statement is fact.

Trust is for Rec flyer to learn the rules and safety information. but the law says you must pass it before flying. Trust is to educate rec flyers BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO PASS THE TEST before flying.

Yes, I know. That's not the point of my post.

You can't buy a car and just drive, "Sorry officer, didn't know I needed a license to drive" You're still getting a ticket.

Two entirely different scenarios. TRUST would be more like buying a dirt bike and riding it around private property than driving a vehicle on roads.

IMO every drone sold needs to be bricked until you enter a 107 or Trust number before it will fly.

That will never happen. You'd have to get manufacturer and retailer buy in. We can't even get them to provide an informational packet in their drone boxes. As one major manufacturer (not DJI) said, "What's in it for us?"

We can't force manufacturers to mandate anything like certification or training before they use their product. There is literally zero precedent or legal obligation.

Let's use your car analogy again. Suppose we had automakers and dealers mandate you insert your driver's license into a slot before the car would start. How well would that go over? How about biometric detectors as a requirement? Major fail.

Same thing with drones.

It's all about education. The issue is that we're dealing with a diverse drone ownership group, with zero singular point of contact. That's why you see this type of stuff on the Drone Zone. And why we push www.faasafety.gov. Those are what the FAA has at its disposal to educate drone pilots. There is no other reasonable way currently. If you have an idea, I'm all ears and we can put it in front of the decision makers at the FAA. We can't even get QR Codes accepted by them.

A whole group of us are trying to wrap our heads around this issue. Any reasonable input if always welcome.

 

[Vic Moss]

View attachment 158214 I agree with the no-fly drone over stadiums because no one wants 50 drones buzzing around during games. But this is done every week.

Again, no comparison. And Mr. Fentress was flying 10 HOURS before the game. Not buzzing around during the games.

And by the way, there are always legal loopholes...

 

[Dmcvey]

Definitely not "Wrong, Wrong, Wrong". The FAA is not using this as punishment. They want this to be used as an educational tool. They don't want LEOs to use it as a hammer. And the one who confronted Mr. Fentress not only had no idea about the TFR (sad, considering they were with the anti-terrorism team), they didn't know what to do with lack of TRUST. They obviously have not been in contact with their local FSDO or LEAP Agent.

I'm part of the group working with the FAA trying to get the word out about TRUST. I also am writing the training for FAASTeam members to work with LEOs when they're called out about drones flying around. I know what TRUST is, what it's intended use is.

My statement is fact.

Yes, I know. That's not the point of my post.

Two entirely different scenarios. TRUST would be more like buying a dirt bike and riding it around private property than driving a vehicle on roads.

That will never happen. You'd have to get manufacturer and retailer buy in. We can't even get them to provide an informational packet in their drone boxes. As one major manufacturer (not DJI) said, "What's in it for us?"

We can't force manufacturers to mandate anything like certification or training before they use their product. There is literally zero precedent or legal obligation.

Let's use your car analogy again. Suppose we had automakers and dealers mandate you insert your driver's license into a slot before the car would start. How well would that go over? How about biometric detectors as a requirement? Major fail.

Same thing with drones.

It's all about education. The issue is that we're dealing with a diverse drone ownership group, with zero singular point of contact. That's why you see this type of stuff on the Drone Zone. And why we push www.faasafety.gov. Those are what the FAA has at its disposal to educate drone pilots. There is no other reasonable way currently. If you have an idea, I'm all ears and we can put it in front of the decision makers at the FAA. We can't even get QR Codes accepted by them.

A whole group of us are trying to wrap our heads around this issue. Any reasonable input if always welcome.

Don't like my car analogy...try fishing without a license, still getting ticket.

The FAA could be doing a better job of "marketing" TRUST. Outside the forum or drone world, I doubt any average drone owner has ever heard of it. Sally Smith buys a drone for her kids at Christmas, there is no mechanism for her to know what it entails. $80 at Walmart and off they go. I opened a lamp box this week and the cord had a warning label about how to plug it in, the gel pack said, "Do Not Eat" and the plastic wrap said, "Keep away from children - not a toy". So yes, you can get the manufacturers to comply and include an orange card with "What to Do Before You Fly".

The solution is to register every operator and as part of that complete TRUST. It can be done. Every camera drone in the EU and UK requires registration of every operator to fly in the Open Category. You have to complete a course before registering. Just got my A1/A2/A3 for EU and UK. in fact, I think their rules are clearer.

Registration as a drone operator​

Registration is required if you want to fly in the Open Category and your aircraft meets at least one of the two conditions:​

• Drone weighs 250 grams or more or achieves kinetic energy of more than 80 joules when hitting a human being.​
• Drone is equipped with a sensor to collect personal data (e.g. camera) and does not comply with the EU Toy Directive.​

Therefore, all owners of a camera drone will have to register. In addition, registration is mandatory for pilots who want to fly a drone in the Specific category.​

​

We have created the atmosphere of confusion. Don't register under 250g unless it used commercially, then it is required. Or just use it commercially (or one over 250) and IF I get caught claim ignorance knowing the FAA will just request education with no follow-up.

1) register the flyer - one number for 1 or 100 drones in the fleet. They all come back to the same flyer.
2) camera = registration, if your drone has a camera, you have to register as a flyer. close the 250 vs 251 and the commercial vs hobbyist debate.

 

[Dmcvey]

Again, no comparison. And Mr. Fentress was flying 10 HOURS before the game. Not buzzing around during the games.

And by the way, there are always legal loopholes...

Was not questioning the timeframe. Just a head scratcher...can't fly a 2# drone over a crowd, it might fall and cut someone but 4 helos full of jet fuel and if your NASCAR land and takeoff from the starting line........

 

[Dmcvey]

Don't like my car analogy...try fishing without a license, still getting ticket.

The FAA could be doing a better job of "marketing" TRUST. Outside the forum or drone world, I doubt any average drone owner has ever heard of it. Sally Smith buys a drone for her kids at Christmas, there is no mechanism for her to know what it entails. $80 at Walmart and off they go. I opened a lamp box this week and the cord had a warning label about how to plug it in, the gel pack said, "Do Not Eat" and the plastic wrap said, "Keep away from children - not a toy". So yes, you can get the manufacturers to comply and include an orange card with "What to Do Before You Fly".

The solution is to register every operator and as part of that complete TRUST. It can be done. Every camera drone in the EU and UK requires registration of every operator to fly in the Open Category. You have to complete a course before registering. Just got my A1/A2/A3 for EU and UK. in fact, I think their rules are clearer.

Registration as a drone operator​

​

Registration is required if you want to fly in the Open Category and your aircraft meets at least one of the two conditions:​

• Drone weighs 250 grams or more or achieves kinetic energy of more than 80 joules when hitting a human being.​
• Drone is equipped with a sensor to collect personal data (e.g. camera) and does not comply with the EU Toy Directive.​

​

Therefore, all owners of a camera drone will have to register. In addition, registration is mandatory for pilots who want to fly a drone in the Specific category.​

​

We have created the atmosphere of confusion. Don't register under 250g unless it used commercially, then it is required. Or just use it commercially (or one over 250) and IF I get caught claim ignorance knowing the FAA will just request education with no follow-up.

1) register the flyer - one number for 1 or 100 drones in the fleet. They all come back to the same flyer.
2) camera = registration, if your drone has a camera, you have to register as a flyer. close the 250 vs 251 and the commercial vs hobbyist debate.

Or

See here is another 107 vs. hobbyist rule:

Cloud ceiling at 400': 107 pilot grounded, must be 500 below cloud. Hobbyist is flying. Same risk to other aircraft that may be in the area. But 2 sets of rules. Is the hobbyist less of a risk than the 107 to fly in the same conditions?

 

[Vic Moss]

Don't like my car analogy...try fishing without a license, still getting ticket.

That is a better analogy for sure.

The FAA could be doing a better job of "marketing" TRUST.

Yes, we know. Do you have any ideas on how? That's the crux of the issue. It was literally part of an hour long FAA meeting I was part of this morning.

Manned aviation has the single touch point of airports, so it's easy to get the word out. That does not exist in the unmanned world.

Outside the forum or drone world, I doubt any average drone owner has ever heard of it. Sally Smith buys a drone for her kids at Christmas, there is no mechanism for her to know what it entails. $80 at Walmart and off they go. I opened a lamp box this week and the cord had a warning label about how to plug it in, the gel pack said, "Do Not Eat" and the plastic wrap said, "Keep away from children - not a toy".

Those warnings aren't gov't mandated. They're put there by the corporate lawyers. They're there because people are stupid enough to do each of those things, and their lawyers don't want their companies to get sued. That's more of a statement on the sad state of our litigious society than mandated warnings or instructions.

Convince the drone makers' lawyers, and we'll have the same thing. Good luck.

So yes, you can get the manufacturers to comply and include an orange card with "What to Do Before You Fly".

And your suggestion on how is what? Remember, for every Walmart and Best Buy drone sold, there are 100s of them bought online. How do you make those resellers comply? Especially those outside US borders.

The solution is to register every operator and as part of that complete TRUST. It can be done. Every camera drone in the EU and UK requires registration of every operator to fly in the Open Category.

We require pretty much the same thing here for drones. This isn't the answer.

You have to complete a course before registering. Just got my A1/A2/A3 for EU and UK. in fact, I think their rules are clearer.

Registration as a drone operator​

​

Registration is required if you want to fly in the Open Category and your aircraft meets at least one of the two conditions:​

• Drone weighs 250 grams or more or achieves kinetic energy of more than 80 joules when hitting a human being.​
• Drone is equipped with a sensor to collect personal data (e.g. camera) and does not comply with the EU Toy Directive.​

​

Therefore, all owners of a camera drone will have to register. In addition, registration is mandatory for pilots who want to fly a drone in the Specific category.​

​

We have created the atmosphere of confusion. Don't register under 250g unless it used commercially, then it is required. Or just use it commercially (or one over 250) and IF I get caught claim ignorance knowing the FAA will just request education with no follow-up.

1) register the flyer - one number for 1 or 100 drones in the fleet. They all come back to the same flyer.
2) camera = registration, if your drone has a camera, you have to register as a flyer. close the 250 vs 251 and the commercial vs hobbyist debate.

Having rules being clear isn't the issue. It's getting that information to the end user. That mechanism does not exist. And workable solutions to creating that mechanism doesn't exist.

You can copy and paste rules in this discussion with me all day long, but it does nothing about advancine this issue forward. If you have any ideas that are reasonable, and doesn't literally take an act of Congress, I'm all ears. And I'm in a very good position to get your ideas in front of the people who would gladly implement them.

So far all you've done is expose an already well known issue. What is your answer on getting that information out to the drone users in the US? If you have that (workable) solution, the FAA will love you for it.

 

[karlblessing]

1) register the flyer - one number for 1 or 100 drones in the fleet. They all come back to the same flyer.

That's already done when you register a drone for recreational, it's the same number (tied to the pilot) on every drone in the fleet. It's 107 where each drone has their own unique number.

 

[Heavydpj]

I am no fan of ignorant (new?) pilots. I think he should have been strongly reprimanded and fined... but prison time?... really? Im

incarceration is the max sentence. If he’s found guilty, it will likely be probation.

 

[Tofino]

Was not questioning the timeframe. Just a head scratcher...can't fly a 2# drone over a crowd, it might fall and cut someone but 4 helos full of jet fuel and if your NASCAR land and takeoff from the starting line........

Please refresh my memory. I have been watching NASCAR since the early 80's have not seen helicoptors land at the start finish line. If ever, would have to be at Talladega or Daytona. And oh by the way they are professionaly trained and certified to fly in these areas with people around and know in an instant what to do if somethig goes wrong.

 

[Tofino]

So Air Force One flying over the White house is a no go also??

 

[karlblessing]

So Air Force One flying over the White house is a no go also??

Pretty safe that they got authorization if they did... Much like the helicopter taking off or landing there.

 

[Vic Moss]

I've been in touch with Mr. Fentress today. He's getting over being sick, and just got back to me this morning. He will be talking with his lawyer this week. I'm waiting to hear from his lawyer if an email from me will be helpful.

Stay tuned...

 

[Aerophile]

Well, December 29 has come and gone. Did this hearing take place as scheduled? Any update?

 

[MA2 317]

Please refresh my memory. I have been watching NASCAR since the early 80's have not seen helicoptors land at the start finish line. If ever, would have to be at Talladega or Daytona. And oh by the way they are professionaly trained and certified to fly in these areas with people around and know in an instant what to do if somethig goes wrong.

Texas motor speedway. 2009.

A Military Helicopter Once Delivered a NASCAR Pace Car at Texas Motor Speedway

NASCAR races are, of course, entertaining in themselves, but NASCAR always delivers a performative flair of its own outside of the actual races. The sport is known for speed and dynamic action. Pace cars are a perfect example of NASCAR putting on a show before the real deal. Fans have gotten to...

altdriver.com

.

 

[Vic Moss]

Well, December 29 has come and gone. Did this hearing take place as scheduled? Any update?

He's been sick. Waiting to hear back from him.

 

[mobilehomer]

Yes, you CAN fish without a license. You can also hunt without a license. Aircraft doing a flyover have special permits. TRUST is a requirement for ANY and ALL National Airspace flying.

 

[Vic Moss]

Yes, you CAN fish without a license. You can also hunt without a license. Aircraft doing a flyover have special permits. TRUST is a requirement for ANY and ALL National Airspace flying.

TRUST is required for all “recreational” UAS flying in the U.S.

Flying under 107, even recreationally, does not require TRUST.

 

[mobilehomer]

TRUST is required for all “recreational” UAS flying in the U.S.

Flying under 107, even recreationally, does not require TRUST.

My bad, I thought I had read for ANY flights. Just checked and, of course, you are correct.