Recreational vs Commercial Airspace Question

[rvandersteen]

I'm new to drones (2 weeks) and want to ensure I'm flying by the rules. I've been using the Airmap resource to help identify nearby airports, and NFZ, etc. I've noticed that as a hobbyist, it appears that you can fly in class C airspace and only have to nofity the airport. Whereas as a commercial pilot, who has their 107 license, you need to get an authorization to fly in class C airspace (within 5 miles). Is that accurate? Doesthe hobbyist pilot have less restrictions to fly in class C airspace that the commercial 107 pilot (notify vs authorization?

 

[AlanTheBeast]

You have to inform all airports w/i 5 miles that are not class C, D and where E extends to the ground. (As I understand it). For C and D you need permission.

If you call the class C controller you need to describe precisely what you want to do. He can deny your request or restrict you (lower altitude for example). Or approve. At least one class D tower is telling people to not call for permission and to go through the site below even though that does not apply to non 107 pilots (AFAICT). Anyone?

Part 107 operators need to go through Request a Waiver/Airspace Authorization – Small Unmanned Aircraft System (sUAS) to get exceptions.

 

[SteelFlyer]

If you are in an area that is Class B, C, D, or E at the surface, you cannot fly without approval from Air Traffic Control. This applies to both hobby and commercial flyers. The difference between hobby and commercial comes in when you are not in B, C, D or E at the surface airspace but are within 5 miles of an airport (or helipad or seaplane base). Hobby fliers need to call and notify those airports, commercial flyers do not.

Commercial flyers can also request waivers from the controlled airspace designations but these have to be submitted well in advance.

 

[flyoverdronography]

As a RECREATIONAL pilot, you do not concern yourself with air space classification. You must notify all airports within 5 statue miles.

As a COMMERCIAL, Part 107, pilot, you only concern yourself with airspace classification. You must receive permission to fly in class B, C, D and E airspace. This permission is only obtained via the FAA waiver process and can take a long time.

 

[AlanTheBeast]

As a RECREATIONAL pilot, you do not concern yourself with air space classification. You must notify all airports within 5 statue miles.

As I understand it, in the US, a recreational pilot must obtain permission to operate within 5 miles of a controlled airport. ie: "notifying" the controller is not enough and the controller can refuse.

 

[mkp2020]

As I understand it, in the US, a recreational pilot must obtain permission to operate within 5 miles of a controlled airport. ie: "notifying" the controller is not enough and the controller can refuse.

Sorry but this is incorrect. This topic is very clearly covered on the FAA website.

 

[rvandersteen]

So this is about as detailed as it gets on the FAA's website. From reading this, as a recreational operator, it sounds like I good to fly in Class C, D and E airspace, as long as I notify the airport operator (within 5 miles of an airport). They clearly state that I cannot fly in Class B airspace.

It's my understanding that a commercial operator cannot fly in Class B, C, D, or E airspace, with the exception being if they have a successful authorization.

I'm not saying this is wrong or bad. I just find it extremely odd that commercial operators are seemingly held to a more restrictive agenda than recreational operators. I wanted to see if my understanding was in line with the consensus or not.

Appreciate all the comments thus far and what ever else comes.

From FAA website:
Airports
Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination.
Source: https://www.faa.gov/uas/where_to_fly/airspace_restrictions/

 

[tcope]

As I understand it, in the US, a recreational pilot must obtain permission to operate within 5 miles of a controlled airport. ie: "notifying" the controller is not enough and the controller can refuse.

As mkp2020 mentioned, an airport can ask that you not fly for safety reason's but they cannot order/prevent you from flying. Of course, if the FAA determines that your flight was unsafe, the FAA can come against you.

 

[mkp2020]

"I'm not saying this is wrong or bad. I just find it extremely odd that commercial operators are seemingly held to a more restrictive agenda than recreational operators. I wanted to see if my understanding was in line with the consensus or not. "

Yes the requirements are different, but if flying commercial you are not required to notify the large number of airports that are in Class G airspace.

 

[SteelFlyer]

I disagree with the notion that recreational operators can fly in controlled airspace. I know there is debate on this but you need to read ALL of the FAA regulations and their interpretation documents. If you think about it for one second you realize that it makes no sense. Controlled airspace is controlled for a reason and requires air traffic control APPROVAL to enter it.

 

[mkp2020]

I disagree with the notion that recreational operators can fly in controlled airspace. I know there is debate on this but you need to read ALL of the FAA regulations and their interpretation documents. If you think about it for one second you realize that it makes no sense. Controlled airspace is controlled for a reason and requires air traffic control APPROVAL to enter it.

I agree with your logic here and could easily support that viewpoint. However the only reference I have found in FAA documentation regarding airspace as it relates to recreational operators is that they are to stay out of Class B airspace. Other than that the only thing they are told to do is notify the airport and tower whenever they will be flying within 5 miles. I would be very interested to know what FAA documentation exists that says otherwise.

 

[Refleks]

That's what I never understood.

Part 107 operators, in general, should pose less of a hazard to manned aircraft than recreational pilots. If you're the type of person who spends all the time, effort, and money to be able to legally fly commercially... then you're probably also the person that went online, did your research on the rules, and earnestly tries to operate lawfully. The conclusion we can draw is that Part 107 holders should on average be less reckless than operators who are not as concerned with following the rules.

Yet the FAA singles out commercial operators and doesn't want Part 107 operators in particular calling the tower to request airspace authorization like any manned aircraft pilot can do in seconds. Ostensibly to reduce the volume of calls and make lives easier for the tower right? But then why can recreational pilots (who vastly outnumber part 107 holders, and by virtue of those numbers are more likely to include inexperienced and more reckless people) simply dial up the tower anytime? If they bother to learn they have to do that in the first place, it's sure to be a much higher call volume than Part 107 holders.

I understand the FAA is wanting to create an "app for that" to let part 107 holders get authorization in seconds too. But IN THE MEANTIME they should have allowed them to call the tower like recreational pilots can simply because the 90 day process results in real financial repercussions for commercial operators, practically encouraging them to fly illegally because if they don't, someone else will.

Other than being able to fly in class G airspace without notifying the airport, it seems like Part 107 holders are more restricted in that regard. You'd think they'd be entrusted with much more, not less.

 

[SteelFlyer]

I agree with your logic here and could easily support that viewpoint. However the only reference I have found in FAA documentation regarding airspace as it relates to recreational operators is that they are to stay out of Class B airspace. Other than that the only thing they are told to do is notify the airport and tower whenever they will be flying within 5 miles. I would be very interested to know what FAA documentation exists that says otherwise.

This is admittedly a gray area. The FAA clearly believes that recreational operators flying under the Part 101 model aircraft exemption ARE subject to airspace restrictions but the law passed in 2012 limits what they can regulate with regards to model aircraft. The best evidence I have found to date is the following from their document on Interpretation of the Model Aircraft Rule.

Congress directed that the FAA may not “promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft” if the aircraft is being operated, or being developed to be operated, pursuant to the five criteria enumerated in the statute as described above. P.L. 112-95, section 336(a). In other words, Congress has restricted the FAA from promulgating regulations, from the date when the statute was enacted, specifically regarding model aircraft that meet the terms of the statute.

However, the prohibition against future rulemaking is not a complete bar on rulemaking that may have an effect on model aircraft. As noted above, the rulemaking limitation applies only to rulemaking actions specifically “regarding a model aircraft or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft.” P.L. 112-95, section 336(a). Thus, the rulemaking prohibition would not apply in the case of general rules that the FAA may issue or modify that apply to all aircraft, such as rules addressing the use of airspace (e.g., the 2008 rule governing VFR operations in the Washington, DC area) for safety or security reasons. See 73 FR 46803. The statute does not require FAA to exempt model aircraft from those rules because those rules are not specifically regarding model aircraft. ​

What FAA is saying here is that the already existing rules for aircraft such as airspace restrictions/classifications DO apply to model aircraft (including recreational drones) because those rules already existed before the law prevented the FAA from establishing and new laws on model aircraft.

As I said before, just applying logic here gives you the right answer. In my humble opinion. those who are trying to fly in controlled airspace under the model aircraft rule are just looking for a loophole to exploit.

 

[AlanTheBeast]

I agree with your logic here and could easily support that viewpoint. However the only reference I have found in FAA documentation regarding airspace as it relates to recreational operators is that they are to stay out of Class B airspace. Other than that the only thing they are told to do is notify the airport and tower whenever they will be flying within 5 miles. I would be very interested to know what FAA documentation exists that says otherwise.

The key is to read all requirements, not solely drone requirements.

It is absolutely absurd to think one can fly within 5 miles (which includes within 100 metres) of class C airport by merely informing the operator of the airport. Someone points out that the FAA can thence deem your flight as dangerous, but so what? The point isn't after the fact judgement, the point is safety.

I don't care if I'm "legally" wrong about this (and I'll be gobsmacked with a dash of collywobbles if I am), anyone who operates in controlled airspace w/o the express permission of the controller is a dangerous fool.

 

[mkp2020]

For those trying to do the right thing, flying safely, and staying on the right side of the FAA, I would suggest reading everything regarding this topic on the following websites and follow the guidance provided there.

Unmanned Aircraft Systems

Best Practices for Flying your Drone within Five Miles of an Airport - AOPA

If you still have questions after that, call the FAA hotline at 1-844-359-6982

 

[Foxtrot Uniform]

As I understand it, in the US, a recreational pilot must obtain permission to operate within 5 miles of a controlled airport. ie: "notifying" the controller is not enough and the controller can refuse.

As recreational pilot, you do not need permission, you are only required to INFORM the airport control towers that you are flying.
The only restrictions in No Flying Ares are the TFR's. (Temporary flight restrictions, some of which are permanent).

 

[AlanTheBeast]

As recreational pilot, you do not need permission, you are only required to INFORM the airport control towers that you are flying.
The only restrictions in No Flying Ares are the TFR's. (Temporary flight restrictions, some of which are permanent).

I hear ya. I don't believe it. It certainly rings wrong.

 

[SteelFlyer]

As recreational pilot, you do not need permission, you are only required to INFORM the airport control towers that you are flying.
The only restrictions in No Flying Ares are the TFR's. (Temporary flight restrictions, some of which are permanent).

You need to read more information and the other parts of the FAA regulations. Just think, if this viewpoint is correct then someone could be 200 yards off the end of the runway at an airport like Chicago O'Hare and call the O'Hare tower and say "Hi, I'm a recreational UAS pilot and I'm going to fly in your area up to 400 feet AGL". At this point the tower says "no you can't, it's an active runway". But since the recreational pilot doesn't need "permission" they are good to go. Give me a break.

The FAA has made two things clear if you read enough:

(1) Airspace controls and restrictions were existing rules before the model aircraft exemption and therefore are not "new" regulations imposed on model aircraft operators. Therefore these restrictions apply.
(2) If a recreational UAS pilot calls an airport within 5 miles to inform them (as required) and the tower tells them they shouldn't fly but the pilot does anyway, then the FAA considers that "endangering the safety" of the air traffic control system and they can be prosecuted.

 

[Foxtrot Uniform]

I hear ya. I don't believe it. It certainly rings wrong.

You do have to ask for class b, but only if within class b area that begins at ground level. It could begin at 700, depend on the individual airport sectionals. Also, a lot of people aren't aware, but if flying by the policies of a community based organization, 400' is not necessarily the max height. Pilots who fly gliders often need to fly higher due to the thermals. Even though the towers can't restrict hobbyist from flying, if they advise a pilot not to, it's ultimately the pilot's decision. Anyone with any common sense would adhere to the "suggestion", not restriction

 

[Refleks]

Then why so many hoops for part 107 flyers? And if safety is the end goal, but the tower has no authority to stop the recreational flyers who bother to actually call in (probably a tiny fragment of all of them), how is the increased regulation reconciled? To what end?