Self defense weapons or tools?

[Wyojet]

Hey girls n guys, please give this thought in relation to it's pro n cons, legal vs illegal use of tactical alternatives. We all know that our world is a far different place most of us grew up in the 50s to 70s.

A friend mine mid 60ish had a altercation while out to dinner with his wife n young granddaughter tagging along. It was the typical Friday night n folks were out enjoying the colorful atmosphere of fall colors n change of seasons. Where they had parked at a scenic pull off there were numerous areas to park n he picked one close by to the overlook. As his wife uses a cane n was critically injured years ago. He accidentally crossed a yellow line with open spaces nearby.

On their return to their vehicle n 9 yr old gdaughter racing to the car. She was met with 3 mid aged men talking quite rudely with their gdaughter n was soon encountered themselves. As they politely apologized for any misunderstanding even though there weren't any real damage nor issues. One guy keyed their car deedly gouging it as he went. They continued to belittle them while trying to get their gd in the car n wife closely behind. 2 of them blocked his entrance to the driver side, arguing that he owed them money. As they claimed the damage with their own car had a damaged front end. They weren't even there when these guys pulled up.

It got ugly n while entering his car, the big guy jerked him out of the car unto the hard asphalt n then pushed backwards knocking the air out of him. His wife was screaming n scared to death what was happening. There were noone nearby to witness n he gave up his wallet n they insisted more. His wife gave her 77 dollars n pleaded to please stop this incident. Another landed several hits to his stomach n another to his head cutting it badly. Later realizing the guy had biker rings on. They finally ended their assault as people had now were being seen on the walkway but a good 350ft away. They demanded their phones n even broke out a window taking it. They were scared to death gd crying n traumatized they left with their money, phones n car keys. A few minutes later folks saw him on his knees bloodied up good n part of his ear lacerated that required 6 snitches.

They don't go sightseeing anymore n if they go grocery shopping they fear someone will jump them as they're seniors. If there's not a handicap space open they generally won't park. An they only shop around other people are coming n going regularly.

The ER had reported the assault but they had his wallet with IDs n were threatened not to do so. We know where your crib is. LE took the report n indicated this specific incident was possibly connected to several others. They advised to carry OC n a pepper gun.

 

[SkyDogII]

An armed society is a polite society....

 

[Wyojet]

Now for the question.

They ask me recently what they could do to never let this ever happen again. An I said first, you need to come to peace with that incident. An realize most Americans would not beat up on older folks ever. But the law is generally never close by, an depending on who shows up. You could have further problems, but generally they do help.

I advised him to get a ccw/cpl license n start packing with proper training beforehand. An they said they recently bought pepper spray, but I said get a big pistol can of OC UV gel. They weren't big on the firearm nor spray. What could they do instead?

I said, sometimes people have to break the law in order to protect themselves from harm. So, I said chances are this situation probably won't happen again. But you might consider carrying a black jack or a sap. I had to explain n their specific use n outcome if used. Black jacks hit harder than saps, n without the proper training you could kill someone. Although saps are more forgiving most times. They're close in weapons n work extremely well n end most fights in a single hit. As they once were a cops best Ace in the hole tools. I've seen big rough men drop to their knees in a single hit.

The problem. You can get a ccw/cpl license n legally carry a gun n its use of deadly force if you or others lives are in imminent life threatening situation. But, you can't legally pack n use a sap or black jacks n others without a felony charge possibly. Most experienced salts won't have a problem if you're a senior n law abiding person. But as I say, better to be judged by 12 than buried by 6. I'd carry a sap n make sure it's concealed well. How many times have you been searched by LE? Probably never, if you have a ccw/cpl. It's really sad today that someone has to break the law in order to defend themselves against thugs. As using deadly force as a ccw/cpl is veryyy serious business n there should be provisions that allow seniors to carry saps for self defense. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions concerning that? I'm all for saps, with proper training n they could add such to your ccw/cpl license. Sign me up,,,

 

[SkyDogII]

A short piece of 250 mcm copper wire works wel too. About 16 to 18 inches.

 

[Deleted member 93449]

If you don't want to carry a pistol or OC then avoidance has to be a major priority. Stick to places you know and where there are a lot of people around and/or LE in sight. If you have a bad sense about something follow that sense and avoid that place.

As for contact weapons like an asp or baton, utilizing those weapons effectively requires some knowledge, strength and agility. If this individual is in his 60's, maybe not in the best of health and not willing to train with the weapon he is going to carry don't bother with it. It only provides a false sense of security.

 

[Hauptmann]

There is so much crazy( Mod Removed )going down these days, even in "safe" locations in broad daylight. This is why I started carrying a small, concealed Beretta .380 (legally licensed, of course). But then, I'm in Texas, where the handgun is practically the State Flower. I don't know if your friend can legally carry in Michigan.

I also carry a special insurance policy which provides legal representation against criminal and civil court action as long as I use the weapon legally.

 

[THE CYBORG]

I am now disabled & use a stick to walk, it is a nice substantial blackthorn stick and with my previous martial arts training makes for a nice self defence item that is legal to carry anywhere.

 

[Neil Reid]

Very sorry to read this story. It's shocking to experience that, and is most unfortunate. I carry everywhere I go except where not allowed. A gun or other weapon is a choice of last resort; your primary weapons are your head, eyes, and ears. Essential to stay ahead of the situation versus walking into one.

I've used a handgun twice in what I believe were situations where considerable harm was intended to me. I only had to draw it partially out and that stopped by perpetrators but you really don't want the situation to get to that point. A very wise master shooter once taught me, "Avoid trouble, run away from trouble, stop trouble", in that order.

Hand guns require a lot of practice, super fast access, and at arms length you can still get into a grappling situation which is very bad unless you're a highly capable, strong, and agile person.

Tasers are a good option for less than lethal response but not good for multiple assailants. I'm not a fan of OC spray though I have a fair amount of it in different sized cans; it's too easy to have it blow back on you and that stuff is seriously nasty.

Good luck; advise your friend to take a hand gun defense course for civilians. Many of those are bogus but a few are quite good. A good course is mostly about awareness, and options prior to drawing a weapon.

Good luck; stay safe, most people are good but the bad ones can be very bad.

 

[RTKD]

As for contact weapons like an asp or baton, utilizing those weapons effectively requires some knowledge, strength and agility. If this individual is in his 60's, maybe not in the best of health and not willing to train with the weapon he is going to carry don't bother with it. It only provides a false sense of security.

This can't be overstated enough. As a trained martial artist I discourage people from carrying weapons they aren't familiar and trained with. It's not just the training and the strength either, bottom line is that normal people aren't good at injuring others, even to protect themselves. Our natural empathy for others is to blame, and if we're honest with ourselves that's something that we probably aren't willing to part with.

This is why I started carrying a small, concealed Beretta .380

You sir sound like a responsible gun owner, but just for the record, I generally discourage guns as well. Not on principal, but for the same reason above. The simple truth is that most people hesitate to shoot another human being. This is not a bad thing, shooting someone is beyond horrifying. One could easily argue that shooting someone is better than the alternative of being victimized, but it's not an easy choice to make in the moment, and it's a choice you'll live with forever.

What to do then? In this case you have to slow the situation down. Try to keep the child close, when you see someone next to your car and nobody else is around, wait and watch for a moment. Call for help early. Yes you can call the police, but it's likely more effective to try to go back to the restaurant you came from, or to try to seek help from the nearest business or residence. I hate to say this, but capitulate if your cornered. Your wallet isn't worth dying over in real life, and most things can be settled legally after the fact with credit cards and insurance.

"Last chance" advice just sucks. The trick is to stay vigilant and never allow yourself to get so deep you need it . If you find yourself alone, and you're afraid for your safety my advice is simple: STOP BEING POLITE . Scream, yell, freak out, break things. Break car windows, shop windows, anything you can. Alarms go off, people take notice. Stand in the street, block traffic if there is any. Cars may not stop if you scream help, but they're part of this thing if you jump on the hood. You have to force people to get involved in any way you can.

Your friends might do well with a few sessions of couples therapy to work through their fears. I'm sorry that this happens to anybody, and I pray for our safety and collective understanding.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Very true.
Weapons of any kind need training in use or they can be taken from you and used against you.

 

[Deleted member 93449]

Very true.
Weapons of any kind need training in use or they can be taken from you and used against you.

At a minimum an understanding of the circumstances in which a particular weapon can be used and used effective. Wait to long and you may lose the opportunity to utilize the weapon effective, use it too soon and you could be the person in handcuffs at the end of an altercation.

 

[Wyojet]

A short piece of 250 mcm copper wire works wel too. About 16 to 18 inches.

Hey Skydog, never thought about that option. Thanks, but think what ever someone needs probably needs good concealment imho. We just talked about it last night, an I found a good coin purse that you'd fill up as a everyday open carry on your belt. When needed, you grab n rip the snaps n pull upwards. I showed him how I'd use one. Most people never protect their throats unless they've been trained. A good wack under the chin n come down on the collar bone or push their face sideways n hit the jaw line or behind the ear. If at that point it needs further strikes. Do so without hesitation. Until that threat is no longer a immediate threat. I'd much rather use a sap n both parties go home that night. One with a very sore head n substantial regret of their actions against you. Last thing I'd do is pull my ccw/cpl gun. Even justified shooting would cost 30 to 60k on your defense possibly imho. You better have all your ducks in a row before using a firearm.

Lastly, I would just get mama to sew up 3 handkerchiefs together n take a heavy keyed padlock n loop it thru the lock eye. If you foresee LE coming directly at you possibly, pull out the cloth n blow your nose n put in the opposite pocket. I lock my gate at home n I have a really bad habit of putting it in my pocket. Yes, most will know you're lying. But if your intention doesn't forsee malice intent, they likely won't bother you imho. Even carrying a sap, you want to go home tonight too, n most will give you a pass. Yes, there's rookies who might. But chances are it get knocked down to a misdemeanor charge. They really should add a Amendment to carry such if trained to its use n be together with your ccw/cpl license. Anyhow,,, Interesting subject. Thanks for the advice n suggestions n fly safe.

He ordered a sap last night, even though its not legal to do so. I convinced him he needs training n learn no hesitation to use one if your gut says to do so. I can't even state how many people I've known who freeze out of fear itself. The last thing you want is the weapon used against you in a self defense incident. He agreed n my oldest boy is a grandmaster so he's going to get familiar with protecting himself.

In a real life survival scenario actions are faster than reactions most every time imho. I have ccw/cpl for 38 yrs n use a Cane Masters cane n know how to use one as well n have once. Avoidance of trouble isn't always a option, as they no idea that situation would ever occur. If someone threatens my gkids safety. That threat will meet its force regardless of what the outcome might be. It's really sad that we allow govt n laws to restrict our personal God given rights to self defense imho. I don't need a gun nor a cane yet I am consider a ole dog myself.

I doubt that any jury would support state laws to restrict ones use of force to save themselves or others imho. Meaning, if you did use a sap for self defense n are a not a known trouble maker. They'd look within themselves what they would or wouldn't use to protect themselves n others. I really doubt that a jury would throw you under the rug imho?

 

[Wyojet]

If you don't want to carry a pistol or OC then avoidance has to be a major priority n game plan. Stick to places you know and where there are a lot of people around and/or LE in sight. If you have a bad sense about something follow that sense and avoid that place. With this specific situation it unfortunately was 30 miles from any town n basically out in the woods n hill country with poor cell service.

As for contact weapons like an asp or baton, utilizing those weapons effectively requires some knowledge, strength and agility. If this individual is in his 60's, maybe not in the best of health and not willing to train with the weapon he is going to carry don't bother with it. It only provides a false sense of security.

I agree 100% n thanks for your advice an suggestions sir. Since that happened, his gdaughter is in karate now n gma is learning how to shoot n draw a ccw/cpl from multiple positions. She's on lesson 4 n might say she out shoots most guys being a non gun person beforehand. She likes my Sig P938 with Hogie grips. Might have spelled that wrong. She's quite the shooter so far, an I am encouraging her to practice often. It's gotten myself shooting again atleast till the winter hits our area.

At a minimum an understanding of the circumstances in which a particular weapon can be used and used effective. Wait to long and you may lose the opportunity to utilize the weapon effective, use it too soon and you could be the person in handcuffs at the end of an altercation.

 

[Wyojet]

An armed society is a polite society....

True story, an sad imho that we have to break laws to adequately protect ourselves an others.

 

[SkyDogII]

Nothing like a good claw hammer ?. You want a smaller one. I’ve got a nice little ball-pean one I can send you for the lady

 

[Slim.slamma]

Pull ups, push ups, dips and squats with some light jogging
I never run??

10 sets of 25 around the world
Undefeated

 

[SkyDogII]

True story, an sad imho that we have to break laws to adequately protect ourselves an others.

That’s the American Dream

sad, but true

 

[NetDep]

An armed society is a polite society....

What he said. ?

I have a CCW and consider my weapon like an American Express Card - I don't leave home without it.

 

[Wyojet]

I agree 100% n thanks for your advice an suggestions sir. Since that happened, his gdaughter is in karate now n gma is learning how to shoot n draw a ccw/cpl from multiple positions. She's on lesson 4 n might say she out shoots most guys being a non gun person beforehand. She likes my Sig P938 with Hogie grips. Might have spelled that wrong. She's quite the shooter so far, an I am encouraging her to practice often. It's gotten myself shooting again atleast till the winter hits our area.

Well said,

I am now disabled & use a stick to walk, it is a nice substantial blackthorn stick and with my previous martial arts training makes for a nice self defence item that is legal to carry anywhere.

I do the same as you sir, Well Said.

 

[Wyojet]

What he said. ?

I have a CCW and consider my weapon like an American Express Card - I don't leave home without it.

As we all age, pay for all the dumb stuff we did when younger, we one day look in the mirror n ask how did this happen? Laugh

I encourage a few to ccw/cpl license an get proper training at each level. Just meeting the qualifications for licensing isn't enough. An there's also folks I recommend Not to as well. False sense of security without the proper mindset, skills, an bi-weekly training an drawing n shooting at night.