When flying, how do you deal with your "Monkey Mind"

[MS Coast]

1 Do members admit to having "Monkey mind". My psychologist friend says we all have it, its just whether or not we recognise or admit to it

I suspect that he's correct.

 

[slozukimc]

I suspect that he's correct.

Lol. I suspect that is psychologist talk so they are, of course, correct. The way it is worded makes it so they can’t be wrong.

Mike

 

[edfrombama]

Good morning to all-
I am not certain I understand the basic term of this thread- "monkey mind". I'm not certain what exactly the term addresses.
However, when I fly my drone, I am fully cognizant- as much as I am capable of at this point in my life- of the drone and what it is doing. The DJI controls and feedback abilities make it easy for me to know the drone's orientation, distance, height and so on. It's a pleasure to fly my Mini 2.
Now, as far as attention goes when I'm flying, I will admit that I often notice things around me and sometimes pay attention to them. I've found it is indeed possible to address more than one thing at a time in an adequate fashion.
I suppose that skill comes from my nearly 40 years standing in front of classrooms trying to keep young people on task and from doing harm to one another. Multi-attention is crucial in that job, I assure you.
Anyway, I have come to love flying my little drone, and I can't wait until my next flight- maybe this afternoon- to check the new SD card I installed just now.

You all be safe and keep well- monkey minds and all-
Ed

 

[Peterson]

All good points re mindfulness. My take would be if you mind is wondering it might be time to switch hobbies because the one you are actively participating in is not holding your attention any longer. Just saying.....

 

[vindibona1]

really think your mind doesn't wander and you can stay focussed for 20 minutes. Sit in a darkened room and stare at a candle for 20 minutes without thinking of anything else but the candle. Tell me other thoughts don't drift into your head. Unless you are mindful of what you're thinking, there will certainly be times your mind loses focus ever so briefly without you realizing it. To exclude all the random thoughts of your brain is one of the hardest things for people to do. Are you a danger flying whenever this happens? I don't believe so because it is so fleeting that most people don't realize it's happening.

I think we have to make sure we're not taking the concept of "mindfulness" to an extreme. IMO the level of concentration required in a moment or series of moments is important. The varying challenges, coupled with diligence are important to maintaining "mindfulness". A good comparison/contrast is flying a drone vs driving a car. With the drone we have so many more elements to concern ourselves with. Working in 3 dimensions with complex maneuvers while filming is incredibly demanding. Some might be good enough pilots that their fingers can just make the drone go where they want. I find it difficult to let my mind drift to anything else. How could any serious pilot not have to be situationally aware the entire time your bird is in the air?

Automobiles, OTOH only have forward and rearward motion. You're not worrried about a camera shot while driving. And not only are we stuck to the ground, for most of us in most situations the path that the car travels on has be pre-determined and pre-built. All we have to do is stay between the lines. Of course we have the task of driving amongst other cars and trucks, but for most traffic flow and situational awareness is easy enough that we can let our minds drift and even talk on the phone while driving and still be ok. Most who drive who are past 21 years old also have driving in their DNA to the point where they concentrate on something else and can even miss turn-offs because their concentration was in their heads- while still being able to drive safely. I don't think a responsible pilot can allow themselves the luxury of dialing back their focus to the point where we can driving a car.

As an off topic tangent, I've been thinking about how proficient Alpine snow skiers might, as a class, often be better drivers than most non-skiers. I'll save that for another day.

 

[Kilrah]

I simply don't go fly just to go fly or say I did, but only if I actually want to go fly or have something specific I want to do and will keep me in focus.
And if I go and can't get "in" I land and pack up.

Agreed that if you're starting to think of something unrelated then there's no reason to be flying at that moment/in this state of mind since you're not making anything of it and should rather stop and come back another time.

 

[slozukimc]

I think we have to make sure we're not taking the concept of "mindfulness" to an extreme. IMO the level of concentration required in a moment or series of moments is important. The varying challenges, coupled with diligence are important to maintaining "mindfulness". A good comparison/contrast is flying a drone vs driving a car. With the drone we have so many more elements to concern ourselves with. Working in 3 dimensions with complex maneuvers while filming is incredibly demanding. Some might be good enough pilots that their fingers can just make the drone go where they want. I find it difficult to let my mind drift to anything else. How could any serious pilot not have to be situationally aware the entire time your bird is in the air?

Automobiles, OTOH only have forward and rearward motion. You're not worrried about a camera shot while driving. And not only are we stuck to the ground, for most of us in most situations the path that the car travels on has be pre-determined and pre-built. All we have to do is stay between the lines. Of course we have the task of driving amongst other cars and trucks, but for most traffic flow and situational awareness is easy enough that we can let our minds drift and even talk on the phone while driving and still be ok. Most who drive who are past 21 years old also have driving in their DNA to the point where they concentrate on something else and can even miss turn-offs because their concentration was in their heads- while still being able to drive safely. I don't think a responsible pilot can allow themselves the luxury of dialing back their focus to the point where we can driving a car.

As an off topic tangent, I've been thinking about how proficient Alpine snow skiers might, as a class, often be better drivers than most non-skiers. I'll save that for another day.

It bothers me how comfortable some folks are with distracted driving. There is a heck of a lot more going on that SHOULD BE being paid attention to while driving but isn’t because, well, it is ingrained in their DNA. Nonsense if you ask me.

Mike

 

[Crouching Leopard]

I’ll agree with that. What I was having issues about is the post mentioning this Monkey Mind causing them to be distracted from driving to the point of going down the wrong road and running redlights. That terrifies me!

Mike

I was merely pointing out that Monkey mind causes us to think about things, but we are not aware our attention has been pulled away. It can be very fleeting or last for many minutes. My example was a thought process anaolgy, albeit not a very good one. The wrong road was an unrecognised change of cognition, the red light was the process of putting yourself back on track after you have recognised what is happening.

Often cited as lack of concentration, it has been the cause of many a road accident, aircraft accident, pedestrian accident and much more.

 

[bcfd29]

this is a problem everywhere, this is a good read that i just started that dives deep into some causal factors and potential fixes: Stolen Focus: Why You Can't Pay Attention--and How to Think Deeply Again: Hari, Johann: 9780593138519: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Crouching Leopard]

Good morning to all-
I am not certain I understand the basic term of this thread- "monkey mind". I'm not certain what exactly the term addresses.
However, when I fly my drone, I am fully cognizant- as much as I am capable of at this point in my life- of the drone and what it is doing. The DJI controls and feedback abilities make it easy for me to know the drone's orientation, distance, height and so on. It's a pleasure to fly my Mini 2.
Now, as far as attention goes when I'm flying, I will admit that I often notice things around me and sometimes pay attention to them. I've found it is indeed possible to address more than one thing at a time in an adequate fashion.
I suppose that skill comes from my nearly 40 years standing in front of classrooms trying to keep young people on task and from doing harm to one another. Multi-attention is crucial in that job, I assure you.
Anyway, I have come to love flying my little drone, and I can't wait until my next flight- maybe this afternoon- to check the new SD card I installed just now.

You all be safe and keep well- monkey minds and all-
Ed

The term addresses the universal basic human phenomonen where our subconscious mind is continuously bringing up new thoughts without our realising it ( the Monkey Mind. Named so because our subconcious mind continuously chatters away without our realising it) and has taken focus away from the conscious mind, again without our realising it. It happens to everyone, multiple times, every day. Its effects can last for a few seconds or several minutes. The kids in your classroom were definately operating under its effects. No matter how good the teacher, their subconcious was more powerful.

As Mavicair2smarc explained, "sit in a darkened room and stare at a candle for 20 minutes without thinking of anything else but the candle. Tell me other thoughts don't drift into your head. Unless you are mindful of what you're thinking, there will certainly be times your mind loses focus ever so briefly without you realizing it. To exclude all the random thoughts of your brain is one of the hardest things for people to do. "

Its your subconcious mind pulling your thoughts away rather than an external factor (people, dogs, etc) pulling them away. No matter how hard we try and focus on a task, other thoughts will creep in, sometimes after only a few seconds, without our recognising them for what they are. They are a driving force in anxiety and depresion. and impact the way in which we efficiently carry out everyday tasks, including drone flying. They are one of the reasons why commercial pilots have checklists, to make sure that things are not missed during the couple of seconds our subconcious mind has pulled away the focus of the concious mind.

It is extremely difficult to recognise and even more difficult to control, but is a recognised phenomenon in aircraft crash investigation. In flying, it has been recognised as a serious issue, which is why aircraft crash investigators specifically target pilots state of mind leading up to the incident, and aircraft manufacturers spend vast sums of money developing technology to mitigate its effects.

I spent many years servicing and operating guided missile systems for the military. A job which definitely requires focus. Now I understand why we were surrounded by so many procedures in our everyday routine maintenance and operational work.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

this is a problem everywhere, this is a good read that i just started that dives deep into some causal factors and potential fixes: Stolen Focus: Why You Can't Pay Attention--and How to Think Deeply Again: Hari, Johann: 9780593138519: Amazon.com: Books

It is the driving force behind the global modern day anxiety epidimic that started well before covid. Been there, done that.

The reason I brough the topic up is that I realised the other day that my subconcious mind had pulled away (for a very brief second or two) my concious mind from the task at hand. It had nothing to do with external factors but my own brain doing it to itself. I wondered how many drone mishaps could be put down to its effects.

My mindfulness training prevents me from being distracted to the point where it becomes an issue when flying, because I am cogniscent of it happening. But I began to wonder how many in the drone flying community recognise it is happening, and how it can potentially impact safety. A couple of seconds of being pulled away is one thing, but if an unaware or inexperienced person has their thoughts pulled away for a few minutes (quite possible), then its effects can be quite different. You cant stop it if you are not aware it is happening.

If the world went by the policy of not flying when we aren't focused then there would be no airline industry, no military or emergency services flying and I suspect most of us would never fly drones. It is that unpredictable and that pervasive.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

The only thing I think about when flying is "OMG! Don't let it fly away!" or "OMG! Don't crash it!" or "OMG! Did I get enough footage!" or "OMG! Is that a redneck with a shotgun aiming at my drone?".

I suspect everyone has variations of your thoughts. All great examples of your subconcious minds fears and anxieties pushing its thoughts over your concious mind. In my case its "did I get the wind speed and direction correct", whats the signal strength like "are there taller trees behind the ones I accounted for" or "why is that person walking towards me with an angry look on their face"

Just for info, the angry looking person was angry for another reason, nothing to do with me thankfully!

 

[slozukimc]

It is the driving force behind the global modern day anxiety epidimic that started well before covid. Been there, done that.

The reason I brough the topic up is that I realised the other day that my subconcious mind had pulled away (for a very brief second or two) my concious mind from the task at hand. It had nothing to do with external factors but my own brain doing it to itself. I wondered how many drone mishaps could be put down to its effects.

My mindfulness training prevents me from being distracted to the point where it becomes an issue when flying, because I am cogniscent of it happening. But I began to wonder how many in the drone flying community recognise it is happening, and how it can potentially impact safety. A couple of seconds of being pulled away is one thing, but if an unaware or inexperienced person has their thoughts pulled away for a few minutes (quite possible), then its effects can be quite different. You cant stop it if you are not aware it is happening.

If the world went by the policy of not flying when we aren't focused then there would be no airline industry, no military or emergency services flying and I suspect most of us would never fly drones. It is that unpredictable and that pervasive.

Ahhh. The anxiety epidemic. Remember back in the day when all people experienced anxiety and dealt with it? Now if someone worries they “have anxiety”. It is all how the society as a whole looks at things. Anxiety isn’t something to deal with on your own, it is a condition that must be treated therefore the person has no personal responsibility. I agree there are people who need help but this bullpucky about everyone and their mother “having anxiety” is a social issue, not a medical one.

Mike

 

[vindibona1]

It bothers me how comfortable some folks are with distracted driving. There is a heck of a lot more going on that SHOULD BE being paid attention to while driving but isn’t because, well, it is ingrained in their DNA. Nonsense if you ask me.

Mike

I agree. Because of a current medical condition I have to be driven regularly for treatment and the person that drives me makes me insane as she cannot refrain from picking up her phone, texting at stop lights; all the stuff that is illegal etc. I've even had to address this with her in therapy. Because of her job she has to take phone calls while driving and her driving acuity drops drastically, even though it's fine when we talk in person.

I recognize the tangential nature of where I'm taking this, for which I apologize, but I'd like to share one more thing relative to "driving DNA"...

I may have alluded to this in an earlier reply, but the one thing that has influenced my driving the most is Alpine snow skiing. I've been skiing for 45 years and can attribute it for acquiring skills that are a direct crossover to defensive driving. When skiing as we all ski with different turn shapes at different speeds I have to be extremely alert to what's not only in front of me, what's behind me and learn to anticipate not only the predictable moves of other skiers but those who are unpredictable and leave enough space for the unpredictability as we all share the same space on the mountain. This has taught me how to "read the field" and lets me see things way before most other drivers. From skiing I've learned to "make a move when I can, not when I have to" and drive to the open lane to provide the most space between me and other cars. It has taught me how to properly merge with other traffic and anticipate what others are going to do well ahead of time. So that crossover from skiing to driving is actually in my DNA and allows me a much softer focus because most of the time I'm ahead of the traffic movement. I recall as a young, new driver I was very nervous and extremely focused, not unlike I am nowadays flying a drone. I'm happy to report that I haven't had a ticket or accident since my 20's, so 4+ decades and over a million miles is a pretty good record, I think. [Hope I didn't just jinx myself] Bottom line... For those who haven't skied before- just do it. It's a blast!

 

[slozukimc]

I agree. Because of a current medical condition I have to be driven regularly for treatment and the person that drives me makes me insane as she cannot refrain from picking up her phone, texting at stop lights; all the stuff that is illegal etc. I've even had to address this with her in therapy. Because of her job she has to take phone calls while driving and her driving acuity drops drastically, even though it's fine when we talk in person.

I recognize the tangential nature of where I'm taking this, for which I apologize, but I'd like to share one more thing relative to "driving DNA"...

I may have alluded to this in an earlier reply, but the one thing that has influenced my driving the most is Alpine snow skiing. I've been skiing for 45 years and can attribute it for acquiring skills that are a direct crossover to defensive driving. When skiing as we all ski with different turn shapes at different speeds I have to be extremely alert to what's not only in front of me, what's behind me and learn to anticipate not only the predictable moves of other skiers but those who are unpredictable and leave enough space for the unpredictability as we all share the same space on the mountain. This has taught me how to "read the field" and lets me see things way before most other drivers. From skiing I've learned to "make a move when I can, not when I have to" and drive to the open lane to provide the most space between me and other cars. It has taught me how to properly merge with other traffic and anticipate what others are going to do well ahead of time. So that crossover from skiing to driving is actually in my DNA and allows me a much softer focus because most of the time I'm ahead of the traffic movement. I recall as a young, new driver I was very nervous and extremely focused, not unlike I am nowadays flying a drone. I'm happy to report that I haven't had a ticket or accident since my 20's, so 4+ decades and over a million miles is a pretty good record, I think. [Hope I didn't just jinx myself] Bottom line... For those who haven't skied before- just do it. It's a blast!

That makes a lot of sense. The driver you ride with would not be driving me. Period. If you feel unsafe enough to have to bring it up in therapy that is not healthy and means they are not doing their job, to get you there safely, mentally and physically.

The skiing is right on! I compare it with “picking your line”. The constant art of knowing where you’re going to put your tires and everything around you looooong before you get there while riding through the woods at speed. I apply it to riding and driving on the road as well as flying the drones. There is no room for fleeting thoughts.

Mike

 

[vindibona1]

That makes a lot of sense. The driver you ride with would not be driving me. Period. If you feel unsafe enough to have to bring it up in therapy that is not healthy and means they are not doing their job, to get you there safely, mentally and physically.

The skiing is right on! I compare it with “picking your line”. The constant art of knowing where you’re going to put your tires and everything around you looooong before you get there while riding through the woods at speed. I apply it to riding and driving on the road as well as flying the drones. There is no room for fleeting thoughts.

Mike

Yep... Ski racing taught me about line and I use it all the time. Saves brakes and braking and reduces skidding on slippery surfaces. People behind me probably think there is something wrong as I don't stay "centered" in the lane on tighter turns. Also, skiing has helped a great deal knowing what to expect with skidding, and how to better handle snowy conditions on the road. But drones? A different animal completely.

 

[slozukimc]

Yep... Ski racing taught me about line and I use it all the time. Saves brakes and braking and reduces skidding on slippery surfaces. People behind me probably think there is something wrong as I don't stay "centered" in the lane on tighter turns. Also, skiing has helped a great deal knowing what to expect with skidding, and how to better handle snowy conditions on the road. But drones? A different animal completely.

Hhahaha. My son rides with me and says “Dad, you need to get on the track again for a while”. He says”you go through every corner like you are racing.” I counter with “Isn’t that the most efficient way to get through the corner?”

Mike

 

[Crouching Leopard]

Ahhh. The anxiety epidemic. Remember back in the day when all people experienced anxiety and dealt with it? Now if someone worries they “have anxiety”. It is all how the society as a whole looks at things. Anxiety isn’t something to deal with on your own, it is a condition that must be treated therefore the person has no personal responsibility. I agree there are people who need help but this bullpucky about everyone and their mother “having anxiety” is a social issue, not a medical one.

Mike

Totally agree, there is a significant difference between dealing with ordinary life and real anxiety brought about by deep trauma, years of abuse, mistreatment or other sustained factors. My psychologist friend was talking about the latter. The rest is just people who have been so sheltered in their lives by family, schools, governments etc that they have no sense of who they really are and don't know how to look after themselves without societys support structures, or deal with everyday issues. Dare I say it but during this Covid pandemic, the city I live in has shown itself to be filled with these people. Most people cannot recognise the difference between real anxiety and PTSD vs the every day issues of life.

When I was at school and just being brought up, people cared about you a great deal, but also just told you to deal with things like bullying, Flu epidemics, a 9yr old schoolfriend dying of an asthma attack (yes, it happened). "Its very sad, but that's life", "stand up for yourself" etc was the common answer, no one would dream of reporting you to the cops and the cops would never bother to get involved anyway. My daughter works at a school, no way that approach is taken these days. Cops and school councilors are called in over an out of control school yard yelling match.

I served on a guided missile system in Germany during the so called cold war. We had to be "ready to fire" 24/7 but non of us suffered from stress or anxiety, in fact they were some of the happiest and most confident people I have ever met. Why? because we were chosen and well trained to deal with it. We actually had to be signed off as a "competent person", which was nothing to do with engineering or military abilities, but about the sort of person you were.

I for one am over people who claim anxiety and look at you with deep suspicion when you simply sneeze or cough these days (even though you are legally required to wear a mask). But those people still fly aircraft, drive cars, see patients and perform other jobs where momentary mind drift can cause issues.

Sorry for the long post, but I get frustrated with the term änxiety being used as an excuse for just being plain soft, insecure and "needy".

 

[slozukimc]

Totally agree, there is a significant difference between dealing with ordinary life and real anxiety brought about by deep trauma, years of abuse, mistreatment or other sustained factors. My psychologist friend was talking about the latter. The rest is just people who have been so sheltered in their lives by family, schools, governments etc that they have no sense of who they really are and don't know how to look after themselves without societys support structures, or deal with everyday issues. Dare I say it but during this Covid pandemic, the city I live in has shown itself to be filled with these people. Most people cannot recognise the difference between real anxiety and PTSD vs the every day issues of life.

When I was at school and just being brought up, people cared about you a great deal, but also just told you to deal with things like bullying, Flu epidemics, a 9yr old schoolfriend dying of an asthma attack (yes, it happened). "Its very sad, but that's life", "stand up for yourself" etc was the common answer, no one would dream of reporting you to the cops and the cops would never bother to get involved anyway. My daughter works at a school, no way that approach is taken these days. Cops and school councilors are called in over an out of control school yard yelling match.

I served on a guided missile system in Germany during the so called cold war. We had to be "ready to fire" 24/7 but non of us suffered from stress or anxiety, in fact they were some of the happiest and most confident people I have ever met. Why? because we were chosen and well trained to deal with it. We actually had to be signed off as a "competent person", which was nothing to do with engineering or military abilities, but about the sort of person you were.

I for one am over people who claim anxiety and look at you with deep suspicion when you simply sneeze or cough these days (even though you are legally required to wear a mask). But those people still fly aircraft, drive cars, see patients and perform other jobs where momentary mind drift can cause issues.

Sorry for the long post, but I get frustrated with the term änxiety being used as an excuse for just being plain soft, insecure and "needy".

I couldn’t have said it better myself. I was taught to “leave my feelings under the pillow when you get up boy, cuz they are gonna get hurt today if ya don’t” attitude and don’t sweat the small stuff, it’s all small stuff was common.

These snowflakes that can’t handle a little heat without melting drive me nuts.

Mike

 

[Crouching Leopard]

I couldn’t have said it better myself. I was taught to “leave my feelings under the pillow when you get up boy, cuz they are gonna get hurt today if ya don’t” attitude and don’t sweat the small stuff, it’s all small stuff was common.

These snowflakes that can’t handle a little heat without melting drive me nuts.

Mike

These people should be screened out and not allowed into management, drive cars, fly aircraft, become "customer service" or "technical support" people (another pet hate. Spend an hour on the phone only to find the Tech support person knows less than I do"! ). Or walk into an official DJI store only to find the person serving you has never flown a drone, but is soon "going for an hours training" ! You go back next week and its a different person serving you who is waiting for the hours training because the other person left, perhaps because of the "anxiety" over flying drones. Stupid but true.

If these people were screened out, I suspect there would not be many people left in the workforce

Pat