Older DJI drones like the Spark kind of had a system that detected when the drone was going beyond VLOS ? The signal would start to get quite poor once beyond a few hundred meters, or behind obstructions. Newer drones have a much more robust transmission system which is capable of functioning well beyond the limits of VLOS.
Beyond Visual Line of Sight Rating (BVLOS)
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cgmaxed
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High power transmitters aren't necessarily to boost range. When flying in VLOS they are meant to boost and maintain a reliable connection between the drone and the rc unit, even in areas with high radio interference or in situations where the drone is temporarily blocked by a structure. I noticed the lower I fly while in VLOS, the more radio interference I get, especially when flying just above or through forested areas or where there are lots of structures. Without a "high range" ie high powered connection I wouldn't be able to fly my drone down and just above a narrow canal or river with trees on either side of it. If the signal wasn't "high range", I wouldn't be able to fly low and through trees or wooded areas.
If you're going to fly in a narrow river channel with trees on both sides, beware of possible loss of GPS signal!
Speaking from experience...
TCS
Do you even know what WW5RM is? Its a Ham Radio call sign! Ive been a Ham since 1992. I might know a thing or two about high power and its purpose. 26dbm is almost 400 milli watts. As a Ham I can legally run 10 Watts on spread spectrum and 1500 Watts in other modes. 400mw isn't squat power wise. Tiny!
Also they don't give the general specs in power the give it distance / range. Which is contrary to i am use to. Everything has been dumbed down and not just here in this part of the hobby! So if we can not fly 2.5 miles then they need to change the specs! I was just following the new standard.
When it comes to RF signal height is everything! Like you say the lower you go the weaker the signal. Welcome to my world. RF transmitted from a ground mounted station generally goes upward. Directional antennas normally help with that issue. But its a reason radio towers are well TALL. So if your signal is weak elevate the drone or elevate the ground station. I fly from the roof of my house often. It helps tons!
WW5RM
I am really glad to see that there are others "around here" that support BVLOS (after all the 'static' I've caught in another thread for supporting it)..!
Long story short, I fully support BVLOS, situation-ally dependent... I think there are some times where VLOS may be wanted or needed, and certain times where it may not be wanted or needed..! I'm also pretty sure, despite being a "new pilot", that I could fully assess when it is or isn't "safe"..! Also, although I carry this opinion, I do and will still follow VLOS rules unless or until they are changed..! Example: I am pretty confident that when I fly in rural areas (so far the only type of area I have flown in), I WOULD be comfortable flying BVLOS... I am also pretty confident that when/if I fly in a city/noisy/crowded/distracting environment I would NOT be comfortable flying BVLOS (and want to maintain VLOS)...
Long story short, I fully support BVLOS, situation-ally dependent... I think there are some times where VLOS may be wanted or needed, and certain times where it may not be wanted or needed..! I'm also pretty sure, despite being a "new pilot", that I could fully assess when it is or isn't "safe"..! Also, although I carry this opinion, I do and will still follow VLOS rules unless or until they are changed..! Example: I am pretty confident that when I fly in rural areas (so far the only type of area I have flown in), I WOULD be comfortable flying BVLOS... I am also pretty confident that when/if I fly in a city/noisy/crowded/distracting environment I would NOT be comfortable flying BVLOS (and want to maintain VLOS)...
dronerdave
Well-Known Member
First off I'm not trying support or undermine BVLOS, but being able to hear a manned aircraft as a reason to justify a flight? Hum, how would that be enforceable to protect manned aircraft from RC aircraft flown BVLOS? A persons word that there was no noise during flight operations? At anytime even a casual conversation might be enough noise for you to not hear an oncoming aircraft. And no matter where I fly, even the wind makes a difference as far as actually hearing an approaching aircraft in time. Background noise is impossible to control. It's that "what's that noise? OMG it's an aircraft headed straight at my drone" moment to avoid. The further you fly from the control station, the harder it might be to use hearing as a verified safety method. I'll admit using all your senses is part of see and avoid but the FAA needs to keep rules in place to keep chaotic flights out of the NAS for manned aircraft safety. Even RID won't stop questionable BVLOS flights by those with intent to evade detection by having no RID onboard, but it would probably be a deterrent to the masses, especially the uneducated. Maybe the FAA will allow BVLOS flights in some circumstances but how it will be effectively implemented for the average rec flier is beyond me.
I will say non-navigable airspace is something to be considered but might require some sort of controllable limits such as only operating in a designated area for recreational RC flights. I sure don't want that. Perhaps RID and a reasonable allowed distance rule would be helpful, but that in itself doesn't cover factors including terrain, fog, low cloud cover, rain or even poor eyesight that limits the safe distance to fly from the control station. Allowable long distance flights might open up a can of worms like requiring the scheduling of pre-flight plans, insurance requirements, RC pilot licensing requirements, and possibly technology that might be a cost factor when purchasing a drone. With more and more sales of drones capable of flying over long distances, the FAA is probably taking that into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to fly BVLOS if my drone could safely operate on its own in respect to detecting and avoiding manned aircraft. I know it hasn't happened yet, but I wonder how the FAA would respond to damage or death(s) due to interference from an unmanned UAV flight that is the possible cause of aircraft damage or a crash provided BVLOS is allowed?
Not sure if you thought I was "getting personal" (with/about you) but I was actually referring to "that other guy" that directly said I should not be flying at all (all because of my "[partially] anti VLOS opinion")... That is who and what really p'd me off. I completely understand, especially as a new pilot, I have LOTS to learn!! But when someone like him literally chastises someone like me for having an opinion, and telling me I'm basically not worthy of flying based off of mere said opinion, that is just flat out RUDE and completely unacceptable..! Especially after I've reiterated time and time again that I have, do, and will obey the rules regardless of my opinion, unless or until it changes!
But anyways, yes, I always welcome any and all (elegant) insight!! Even if I don't agree, doesn't necessarily make me right or wrong, but "THE MORE YOU KNOW"!!!
dronerdave
Well-Known Member
I agree. There have been a lot of changes since I bought my first drone back in 2016 and I'll admit I didn't know much about drone flying in general compared to fixed wing club flying of the past. Back in 2016-17 I was doing a lot of BVLOS flying with my drones. At the time several posts pointed out the FAA only suggested you shouldn't fly BVLOS plus there were a ton of videos of long distance flights. I always tried to fly to avoid manned aircraft when flying at long distances and if I saw a aircraft approach my area when my quad was out of sight, I'd use the camera to get as low as possible (where I figured a plane couldn't fly) until it was out of the area. But a few incidents changed my mind. One was a crop duster that suddenly appeared from behind a hill that I'd flown behind the week before. The crop duster just wasn't loud enough to make me notice it until the plane was above the hill and visible. Another was a when I was flying up a larger river at about 50' above the water. Trees blocked any view on my drone as I snaked my way up river. A few minutes later a plane spraying for insects suddenly came around the corner into my view from up river. It must of passed pretty close to my quad as the pilot flew down river. Not only did I not hear it coming, I never noticed it on the camera. I kinda wish I would have caught it on the camera though. It was one of those video I couldn't wait to review but the camera was pointed down. But the closest encounter happened about 100-200 feet from where I was standing holding my controller. All of a sudden a bright yellow Piper cub missed my drone by a few feet. I mean I saw the guys face in the plane looking at me as he flew by. I don't know if he even saw the drone. I heard the plane but it was on me before I knew what I was hearing, and him coming out of the sun didn't help to visually see him at all. The problem was I had flown from one end of the lake to the other...about 3 or 4 miles more than once. I did come to realize it might be a poor choice to risk BVLOS flight being in those instances I never heard the planes coming. I did purchase some Firehouse strobes to help with VLOS but quit taking the drone completely out of sight. And don't tell anybody, but I drank a couple beers once when flying VLOS. Thankfully I never drank enough to see two drones. I'd better say that's a joke folks.
Then the rules changed in 2018.
Another thought that comes to mind is, I have also ONLY been flying in an area that is VERY familiar to me. I know, *nothing* about the "air" is static, but for the most part I am already *very* well aware of the "regular" "risks" in this/my immediate vicinity... It is the spot where I bought my land in AZ... It is near (but not in) MOA's and VR flight paths (that they clearly deviate from, and I do not blame them - they want to "have fun" while learning/practicing, (Mod Removed Language)sometimes we wave to them and then they circle us)! I have "farms" near me, but even those are far enough I have *never* seen or heard of any of their "crop dusters" coming over this "subdivision"... Also, we have a rather "famous" pilot here who is a trick/stunt flyer, and he has a ranch here, complete with his own hangar and airstrip! I have to do my best to make sure I *NEVER* interfere with his flying! But like the crop dusters, he never really comes directly over the subdivision (and I also know that he tends to only fly in the mornings around the 0700 - 0900 kind of time frame). If I know someone else is already in the air, I'm not taking off... If I'm already "up", I will assess to determine whether I simply need to descend/yield, or whether I would need to cease operations until they're done/gone...
I'd also imagine, it would be 1000000x more important to be the utmost prudent in a completely unfamiliar area! Which I can already "see", how long can I fly above and around the same place (as I have been) before it gets "boring"..!? Sooner or later (probably sooner than later) I am going to *"NEED"* to get out to fly other places, that I am not familiar with..!
I do also understand not becoming complacent... Complacency can be hazardous too... But I still think, at least for this specific area, having the heads up that there are military "ops" nearby, farms/crop dusting, and even a private/personal pilot who flies the area - is better than someone who "happens" to show up here to fly, knowing NONE of that... Which I guess just supports being "extra careful" in an unfamiliar area... But of course to remain cautious to *not* become complacent either..! Could that pilot near me decide to fly one Sunday night? Sure! Would it be out of the "norm"? Definitely..! But and so I cannot just "assume" that because it's a sunset on Sunday that he's not going to be in the air, or about to enter the air!
But more (specifically) back to VLOS/BVLOS - I have mountains near me that I really do not think I could maintain VLOS to, but I really want to fly "up to them"! Could I perform that flight "safely", I am about 99.999% sure I could... But would I be able to maintain VLOS, with a Mini 2? Probably not..! I'd know the general direction or general location of it, but I would likely lose sight of the AC itself, as I am pretty sure the nearest mountain (yes I am surrounded by mountains) is probably about 2km out... I would not be able to go to the "top" either, since I'm sure that is higher than 400' AGL... But I wouldn't mind flying "up to it" @ 400', then turning around and coming back! I think that would make for some nice video/pictures... So this is why I have such "contradictions" when it comes to VLOS/BVLOS !!!!!!!!
Do I understand that VLOS rules are completely designed with "safety" in mind? Of course. Do I think it's always necessary though? Absolutely not... Will I continue to "follow the rules" despite my personal thoughts, opinions, or biases? You know it..! Unlike "most (other) people" I don't tend to brake laws just because I do not agree with them... Prime example would be "speeding" while driving/operating a motor vehicle... I often times think and feel like I *am* literally the *only* person who actually does the speed limit as posted, because as I'm driving the speed limit, almost literally everyone passes me... I think I can honestly count on ONE hand how frequently I have personally witnessed someone else in traffic around me, that's also actually doing the speed limit and not barreling past me like they're in NASCAR..! By the way, I am also NOT claiming to be an "angel" or anything, I used to speed like I had a lead brick in my shoe (when I was younger)... Though, getting older I have realized that speeding really doesn't do much other than increase your risk of receiving a traffic ticket for doing it (since it IS illegal), and you wind up spending more money at the fuel pump too..! All that and it really does NOT get you anywhere any faster, if anything it could save you a matter of a couple of minutes (for an "in town" kind of trip)... Don't get me wrong, I LOVE speed, VERY high speed. It produces an adrenaline rush like nothing else I have ever experienced. But you know what I do now to get my "speed fix"? If you guessed that I own a "sport bike" and take it to "the track", you'd have guessed right! I don't have to worry about getting any tickets, OR "granny" pulling out in front of me, yet I can operate my machine (bike) at 190 MPH without breaking a sweat..!
Any way, sorry, writing another "book" here! I do hope that one day VLOS/BVLOS "rules" DO change, so that I can get my awesome mountain flights (video/pix) in (legally)!
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My comment about not flying related more directly to your admission of very poor eyesight more than your attempts to argue why the rules are wrong. But that was clear from my post - now you are just trying to change the narrative.
I haven't read every post in this thread but it seems the biggest concern is a drone colliding with a manned aircraft. If that's the case then I don't think being able to see the drone is as important as seeing the manned aircraft and knowing the general location of the drone in the sky.
If you're flying your average size drone 500 yards away you may see the drone and see a much larger manned aircraft but how well can you really judge relative distance between the two? Is it very much better than if the drone is another 100 yards away where you know the general vicinity of the drone but not its exact position?
My thinking is that at some distance you may be able to see the drone but your perception of separation horizontally and vertical, speed and direction is not much better than knowing the general area in which the drone is located.
You can see a C-150 that's a mile away. Maybe the rule shouldn't focus on seeing the drone but seeing one of the smaller manned aircraft.
If you're flying your average size drone 500 yards away you may see the drone and see a much larger manned aircraft but how well can you really judge relative distance between the two? Is it very much better than if the drone is another 100 yards away where you know the general vicinity of the drone but not its exact position?
My thinking is that at some distance you may be able to see the drone but your perception of separation horizontally and vertical, speed and direction is not much better than knowing the general area in which the drone is located.
You can see a C-150 that's a mile away. Maybe the rule shouldn't focus on seeing the drone but seeing one of the smaller manned aircraft.
cgmaxed
Well-Known Member
I certainly agree. There are people that react to the mention of any drone flying not within FAA regulations as a sin of the utmost gravity. They exhibit, what seems to me, almost psychotic or schizophrenic type behavior. But, considering the shear numbers of members on this particular forum, It's rare. Most of the members are sane and probably don't care too much either way. Some get concerned, but don't say anything and don't mention it. Others, just out right don't care if others don't follow FAA regulations. I would guess, maybe there are about 10% or less who are fanatical followers of FAA regs. Notice I said fanatical. They are the trouble makers. They always have to espouse their extremist emotional reactions when someone just mentions the Idea of breaking FAA regs. (Inappropriate Remarks Removed)
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cgmaxed
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This may be a late response, but if I used say, 20ft maybe even 30ft SMA cables, and attached my amplified antenna to the cables then to the remote and put the antenna on a pole, would the signal be able to travel through the SMA cables sufficiently to get extra signal penetration at tree lines or roof lines. Would just connecting the antenna between the cables and Remote be sufficient or would a booster need to be placed in the cable lines.
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If you are referring to me then you are way of base. My responses were to flawed assertions that there are no good reasons for the VLOS rule. I'm not at all invested in the FAA rules, let alone fanatical about them. I am allergic to BS though, and this thread is full of it.
cgmaxed
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I'm not referring to you or anyone else in this thread or this forum. I responded to the one post without reading the others. The post was just a general observation. Just what I have seen go on in this forum over the years.
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Then you have no idea what you were agreeing with, and you should refrain from throwing around ad homs. I haven't seen any fanatical, psychotic or schizophrenic FAA supporters on this forum, and I suggest that you reconsider your language in future.
cgmaxed
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dirkclod
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G
You guys must be bored. Same ole mess just a different day.
This is going no where other than down the feed.
Thank You for bringing a 6 month old thread back up .
Got that right
You guys must be bored. Same ole mess just a different day.
This is going no where other than down the feed.
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