Canyons

[Thomas B]

I don't get down to AZ much, but if you come north look me up here in Price.

John

Thx! Will do!

 

[Mavic Air Head]

I fly a lot of remote canyons in Western Colorado, and that first 50 or 60 times you get the heeby jeebies, after that not so much. I see everyone chimed in on the 400 foot rule. The reality is that if you fly over any terrain other than a sheet of glass at a max of 400', your altitude is going to vary from more to less than 400'. Until drones have precision ground tracking radar, no one can be absolutely sure of their altitude. Not likely to happen.
Visible Line of Sight (VLOS) will be your biggest challenge. I put strobes on my MA to help with that. You know about the variations of bright sunlight and shadows, the strobes are really helpful. Estimating your altitude when the bird is below you is a challenge, especially when flying up a canyon and the terrain is gaining elevation. In some cases you can go from 300' above ground to 10' in a very short distance for example.
Another challenge in your flight planning is if you want to fly from the bottom up to a rim or if you are flying from a bench, going up. You can go down anywhere, but you can only go to 400' above your take off point, regardless of your ability to fly 400' over the contour.
And finally- this is really important since you are going to be in remote areas. READ THE MA CRASH THREADS!!!! You need to be able to work through the rudimentary process of finding your bird if it should go down (low battery, other causes) without running home in a panic, getting help from other pilots here and then trying to go back out to find it. There is a lot you can do on the spot if you know the basics.
I take 10 batteries with me when I go because recharging is not an easy option, especially in pack in sites, and I fly all 10 of them when I go out. Watch your battery levels closely and Return to Home early, canyon winds can consume a lot of battery on return flights and as you know, unless you are into ropes if a bird goes down to the canyon floor, recovery could involve a 15 mile drive and 8 mile hike. Make sure you have the cable to charge your RC from a battery too, real helpful for those long excursions.
And finally, start in a real easy setting, then increase the technical aspects as you gain comfort with your skill levels.

 

[John Mcc]

I fly a lot of remote canyons in Western Colorado, and that first 50 or 60 times you get the heeby jeebies, after that not so much. I see everyone chimed in on the 400 foot rule. The reality is that if you fly over any terrain other than a sheet of glass at a max of 400', your altitude is going to vary from more to less than 400'. Until drones have precision ground tracking radar, no one can be absolutely sure of their altitude. Not likely to happen.
Visible Line of Sight (VLOS) will be your biggest challenge. I put strobes on my MA to help with that. You know about the variations of bright sunlight and shadows, the strobes are really helpful. Estimating your altitude when the bird is below you is a challenge, especially when flying up a canyon and the terrain is gaining elevation. In some cases you can go from 300' above ground to 10' in a very short distance for example.
Another challenge in your flight planning is if you want to fly from the bottom up to a rim or if you are flying from a bench, going up. You can go down anywhere, but you can only go to 400' above your take off point, regardless of your ability to fly 400' over the contour.
And finally- this is really important since you are going to be in remote areas. READ THE MA CRASH THREADS!!!! You need to be able to work through the rudimentary process of finding your bird if it should go down (low battery, other causes) without running home in a panic, getting help from other pilots here and then trying to go back out to find it. There is a lot you can do on the spot if you know the basics.
I take 10 batteries with me when I go because recharging is not an easy option, especially in pack in sites, and I fly all 10 of them when I go out. Watch your battery levels closely and Return to Home early, canyon winds can consume a lot of battery on return flights and as you know, unless you are into ropes if a bird goes down to the canyon floor, recovery could involve a 15 mile drive and 8 mile hike. Make sure you have the cable to charge your RC from a battery too, real helpful for those long excursions.
And finally, start in a real easy setting, then increase the technical aspects as you gain comfort with your skill levels.

Thank you very much for the advice. You address issues that flat landers never have to think about.
I only have 3 batteries, but plan for more.

So I guess I have to say that this issue is still cloudy or at least the regs make no sense.
For example, I live about 1/2 mi from four mile hill just south of me It is a barren flat mesa with a somewhat gradual incline.
If I take off from my house and fly south it is iffy that I can clear that hill even flying at 400 ft.
Conversely, if I take off from there and fly back to my house at say 100ft from take off I will probably be close to 500 ft above my house.
There are many such examples near where I live.
BTW our local airport is perhaps 10 mi. due north from home and I have no plans to fly over the east end of town in that direction.
Lots of room in every other direction.

Regards,

John

 

[BigAl07]

This is true, BUT, at least under Part 107 regulations, you are still legal as long as you are within 400' horizontal of the canyon wall.

So if the canyon is 800 feet wide you can legally fly all the way over it but if it's 820 feet wide and 800 feet deep, you would technically have to go 400 feet out, then go down 400 feet, then go over 20 feet, then come back up 400 feet, then fly the other 400 feet to reach the other side. Now the likelihood of an aircraft being in the canyon is probably very small but that's what the FAA regs are if you want to be 100% legal.

Again this is for the Part 107 certification so the recreational rules may be different but I think they are similar. Anyway, don't take my word for it; you need to research it for yourself if you want to be 100% sure.

Ummm WRONG! That "400ft" allowance is from a STRUCTURE in order to allow Commercial Operations to be carried out for buildings, towers, antennae etc. Part 107 does not allow for 400' from a hill/mountain/tree etc. Structure and not earth.

If you want confirmation from the FAA I'll be happy to oblige you in that respect as well.

Now the likelihood of a MANNED aircraft operating in that 400' from a wall/cliff is minimal at best but the law is the law regardless of "likelihood" of other aircraft. You're either flying LEGALLY or you're NOT!


Little details can and DO make a world of difference.

 

[BigAl07]

Thank you very much for the advice. You address issues that flat landers never have to think about.
I only have 3 batteries, but plan for more.

So I guess I have to say that this issue is still cloudy or at least the regs make no sense.
For example, I live about 1/2 mi from four mile hill just south of me It is a barren flat mesa with a somewhat gradual incline.
If I take off from my house and fly south it is iffy that I can clear that hill even flying at 400 ft.
Conversely, if I take off from there and fly back to my house at say 100ft from take off I will probably be close to 500 ft above my house.
There are many such examples near where I live.
BTW our local airport is perhaps 10 mi. due north from home and I have no plans to fly over the east end of town in that direction.
Lots of room in every other direction.

Regards,

John

Good morning John and welcome to the forum.

Let's remove some of the confusion. In order to remain LEGAL look at it like this.....

Pretend you have a 400' piece of rope/cable hanging from your sUAS. In order to be legal that rope/cable must ALWAYS be touching the ground directly under the aircraft. Regardless of it's Take-Off altitude (Which is the only thing the aircraft can measure and then it's still not extremely accurate) the aircraft must ALWAYS be 400' above the parcel of land/water directly under it.

As an example... I was hired to fly for a company to inspect all of their chairlift equipment going up the side of a very steep mountainside. From the ground where I took off it was 1,800ft to the tip of the mountain. If I flew straight up over my head to that ALT I would grossly violate the 400'AGL rule. But as I was ascending the mountain side I merely kept the aircraft what I estimated to be well within the 400'AGL height and was able to fly up to the highest point of the chairlift and never violated the rules. I merely descended using a similar path and landed with no incident. For clarity, I had to move my take-off location several times in order to maintain VLOS for the entire flight.

As mentioned earlier (and somewhat inaccurately in this context) Part 107 operators have an allowance to where they can fly up to 400' above a structure so long as they are within 400' of that structure. Structure is not hills, mountains, trees etc.

 

[Mavic Air Head]

Thank you very much for the advice. You address issues that flat landers never have to think about.
I only have 3 batteries, but plan for more.

So I guess I have to say that this issue is still cloudy or at least the regs make no sense.
For example, I live about 1/2 mi from four mile hill just south of me It is a barren flat mesa with a somewhat gradual incline.
If I take off from my house and fly south it is iffy that I can clear that hill even flying at 400 ft.
Conversely, if I take off from there and fly back to my house at say 100ft from take off I will probably be close to 500 ft above my house.
There are many such examples near where I live.
BTW our local airport is perhaps 10 mi. due north from home and I have no plans to fly over the east end of town in that direction.
Lots of room in every other direction.

Regards,

John

Hi John,
Sorry it took a while to get back to you. When you watch the Mavic Air sales videos it seems like the sky is the limit, in some other countries yes but not here. I have some mountain property I want to fly, but it goes from 9,000 to 12,000 feet. To do what I want to do I have to climb the 12,000 feet and fly contour down, not really what I had in mind.
When you fly uphill, collision avoidance will stop you from augering in. If you are in Sports mode, you have no collision avoidance. The limitation for people like us who live on big slopes and canyons can be frustrating, but you'll find that with flight hours, your creativity will grow to master the challenges.
I have read some threads that talk about disabling the 400 limit, but I am really uncomfortable trying that. With the proposed rules requiring the aircraft transmit it's id, I don't want to run afoul of the law by forgetting to reset to 400' max. The other huge issue for pilots like us is that the rules looked like they were going to require internet contact with the aircraft at all times, which is absolutely impossible for pilots like us. Most areas where I fly don't even have cell reception to even do a mobile hotspot off my phone. I've never advocated going rogue, but I don't want my MA as a paperweight or city park flyer either.
For now I do stay within 400' of cliff faces, have flown -1100' with clear line of sight. Keep in mind obstacles may cause you problems. So far I've avoided that, so I can't tell you what happens if you maneuver around a pinnacle or other feature.
At any rate have a blast- on thursday even with the restrictions there is an incredible amount of freedom.
BTW- I have always loved the Price area, worked natural gas around there- Schofield is a horrible place for anyone reading this to ever go, so we can only hope they never ever endanger themselves by venturing anywhere near that area, ever ever.
I haven't mastered the video editing enough to have the courage to post here, the critics are many and somewhat bored so they jump at the chance to review your work. At any rate, hope to see some of your video in the future.
Brian

 

[John Mcc]

I fly a lot of remote canyons in Western Colorado, and that first 50 or 60 times you get the heeby jeebies, after that not so much. I see everyone chimed in on the 400 foot rule. The reality is that if you fly over any terrain other than a sheet of glass at a max of 400', your altitude is going to vary from more to less than 400'. Until drones have precision ground tracking radar, no one can be absolutely sure of their altitude. Not likely to happen.
Visible Line of Sight (VLOS) will be your biggest challenge. I put strobes on my MA to help with that. You know about the variations of bright sunlight and shadows, the strobes are really helpful. Estimating your altitude when the bird is below you is a challenge, especially when flying up a canyon and the terrain is gaining elevation. In some cases you can go from 300' above ground to 10' in a very short distance for example.
Another challenge in your flight planning is if you want to fly from the bottom up to a rim or if you are flying from a bench, going up. You can go down anywhere, but you can only go to 400' above your take off point, regardless of your ability to fly 400' over the contour.
And finally- this is really important since you are going to be in remote areas. READ THE MA CRASH THREADS!!!! You need to be able to work through the rudimentary process of finding your bird if it should go down (low battery, other causes) without running home in a panic, getting help from other pilots here and then trying to go back out to find it. There is a lot you can do on the spot if you know the basics.
I take 10 batteries with me when I go because recharging is not an easy option, especially in pack in sites, and I fly all 10 of them when I go out. Watch your battery levels closely and Return to Home early, canyon winds can consume a lot of battery on return flights and as you know, unless you are into ropes if a bird goes down to the canyon floor, recovery could involve a 15 mile drive and 8 mile hike. Make sure you have the cable to charge your RC from a battery too, real helpful for those long excursions.
And finally, start in a real easy setting, then increase the technical aspects as you gain comfort with your skill levels.

Thank you for the reply
Ok VLOS is another bug boo.
I have a line of trees about 200 ft away from my backyard take off.
When I fly over them to check my irrigation in the next pasture I loose sight of the drone.
Now I am still on my own property and I can see where the drone is via camera so I just fly down to where the water is on and look things over.
RTH after that. Its been a real boon for me.

I am beginning to think that my interpretation of the law in flying and many other areas is one of following the spirit of the law, not always the letter of the law.
I also think that that many laws , as written are in poor form and ill conceived.

 

[John Mcc]

Hi John,
Sorry it took a while to get back to you. When you watch the Mavic Air sales videos it seems like the sky is the limit, in some other countries yes but not here. I have some mountain property I want to fly, but it goes from 9,000 to 12,000 feet. To do what I want to do I have to climb the 12,000 feet and fly contour down, not really what I had in mind.
When you fly uphill, collision avoidance will stop you from augering in. If you are in Sports mode, you have no collision avoidance. The limitation for people like us who live on big slopes and canyons can be frustrating, but you'll find that with flight hours, your creativity will grow to master the challenges.
I have read some threads that talk about disabling the 400 limit, but I am really uncomfortable trying that. With the proposed rules requiring the aircraft transmit it's id, I don't want to run afoul of the law by forgetting to reset to 400' max. The other huge issue for pilots like us is that the rules looked like they were going to require internet contact with the aircraft at all times, which is absolutely impossible for pilots like us. Most areas where I fly don't even have cell reception to even do a mobile hotspot off my phone. I've never advocated going rogue, but I don't want my MA as a paperweight or city park flyer either.
For now I do stay within 400' of cliff faces, have flown -1100' with clear line of sight. Keep in mind obstacles may cause you problems. So far I've avoided that, so I can't tell you what happens if you maneuver around a pinnacle or other feature.
At any rate have a blast- on thursday even with the restrictions there is an incredible amount of freedom.
BTW- I have always loved the Price area, worked natural gas around there- Schofield is a horrible place for anyone reading this to ever go, so we can only hope they never ever endanger themselves by venturing anywhere near that area, ever ever.
I haven't mastered the video editing enough to have the courage to post here, the critics are many and somewhat bored so they jump at the chance to review your work. At any rate, hope to see some of your video in the future.
Brian

Howdy again Brian,
No collision on the MM.
All of my flying since I started last week is right here on my 10 acre ranch south of town with lots of wide open space all around me.
In doing so the 400 ft level is actually much higher than I need or want.

Tomorrow I will be going to the desert canyon country and while I think I will avoid most large deep canyons I will get my feet wet flying over washes and hills.
If I get some good pics while down on the area I'll try to post them here.

Regards,

John

 

[John Mcc]

Good morning John and welcome to the forum.

Let's remove some of the confusion. In order to remain LEGAL look at it like this.....

Pretend you have a 400' piece of rope/cable hanging from your sUAS. In order to be legal that rope/cable must ALWAYS be touching the ground directly under the aircraft. Regardless of it's Take-Off altitude (Which is the only thing the aircraft can measure and then it's still not extremely accurate) the aircraft must ALWAYS be 400' above the parcel of land/water directly under it.

As an example... I was hired to fly for a company to inspect all of their chairlift equipment going up the side of a very steep mountainside. From the ground where I took off it was 1,800ft to the tip of the mountain. If I flew straight up over my head to that ALT I would grossly violate the 400'AGL rule. But as I was ascending the mountain side I merely kept the aircraft what I estimated to be well within the 400'AGL height and was able to fly up to the highest point of the chairlift and never violated the rules. I merely descended using a similar path and landed with no incident. For clarity, I had to move my take-off location several times in order to maintain VLOS for the entire flight.

As mentioned earlier (and somewhat inaccurately in this context) Part 107 operators have an allowance to where they can fly up to 400' above a structure so long as they are within 400' of that structure. Structure is not hills, mountains, trees etc.

Pard,
The piece of rope is how I intemperate 107 altitude and even then it does not always make sense.

As to structures, were I plan to fly there are none, which again makes my flying unlike many who post here.

Regards,

John

 

[John Mcc]

Ummm WRONG! That "400ft" allowance is from a STRUCTURE in order to allow Commercial Operations to be carried out for buildings, towers, antennae etc. Part 107 does not allow for 400' from a hill/mountain/tree etc. Structure and not earth.

If you want confirmation from the FAA I'll be happy to oblige you in that respect as well.

Now the likelihood of a MANNED aircraft operating in that 400' from a wall/cliff is minimal at best but the law is the law regardless of "likelihood" of other aircraft. You're either flying LEGALLY or you're NOT!


Little details can and DO make a world of difference.

Well 'structures' certainly clouds the issue for many, but not for my intended flying plans..because there are none, zero, zip notta.
The devil is in the details.
No further quotes from big brother are necessary, I know of no one who is a Phila. lawyer.

Regards,

John

 

[BigAl07]

Pard,
The piece of rope is how I intemperate 107 altitude and even then it does not always make sense.

How does it not make sense? The aircraft has to ALWAYS be within 400' of the ground directly under it... straight down... as in a rope/cable dangling from under the aircraft... assume it's the POWER cable and if you shoot up to over 400'AGL you lose power (become illegal).

As to structures, were I plan to fly there are none, which again makes my flying unlike many who post here.

Agreed. Another member stated that the "edge/wall of the cliff" would satisfy the 400' vertical allowance from a structure and I was merely correcting that false statement.

 

[FlyingFilmmaker]

Ummm WRONG! That "400ft" allowance is from a STRUCTURE in order to allow Commercial Operations to be carried out for buildings, towers, antennae etc. Part 107 does not allow for 400' from a hill/mountain/tree etc. Structure and not earth.

If you want confirmation from the FAA I'll be happy to oblige you in that respect as well.

Now the likelihood of a MANNED aircraft operating in that 400' from a wall/cliff is minimal at best but the law is the law regardless of "likelihood" of other aircraft. You're either flying LEGALLY or you're NOT!


Little details can and DO make a world of difference.

Ok, sorry for the missinformation. I thought it would logically apply to natural structures as well and I thought I remembered it being interpreted this way by the FAA in response to a question in a FAA webinar, but I may be wrong.

 

[FlyingFilmmaker]

Ok, sorry for the missinformation. I thought it would logically apply to natural structures as well and I thought I remembered it being interpreted this way by the FAA in response to a question in a FAA webinar, but I may be wrong.

I checked it out, and yes I was wrong. Very strange that they interpret the rules in that way IMO.