Drone Vs. Powered Hang Glider
- Thread starter FASTFJR
- Start date
Not really sure if it correct or not. Some brief checking showed 500ft, who knows. Its over and done with, the hang glider survived and so did my drone Lol
I’d guess the beach patrol guy knows even less about trikes than he does about drones. I don’t know anything about trikes either, but a quick look through 103 doesn’t seem to mention anything about minimum altitudes. 103.9 could be argued depended on what he was doing.
Ultralight aircraft are regulated by FAR 103 and there are no minimum altitude restrictions. It's important for all of us to understand, and accept, that we share the airspace and all of us are expected to look out for other users.
It's very unlikely that there is an actual altitude restriction over that beach. If there is, it would probably also apply to drones.
Keep in mind that there are a wide variety of ultralight aircraft types. One type growing in popularity is the powered paraglider (AKA paramotor). Flying very low is quite common for paramotor pilots. No ultralight pilot wants to collide with a drone, or anything else. That could result in their death. Kite strings, in particular, are very hazardous to paramotors because the string can slice the fabric of the wing.
Nick
It's very unlikely that there is an actual altitude restriction over that beach. If there is, it would probably also apply to drones.
Keep in mind that there are a wide variety of ultralight aircraft types. One type growing in popularity is the powered paraglider (AKA paramotor). Flying very low is quite common for paramotor pilots. No ultralight pilot wants to collide with a drone, or anything else. That could result in their death. Kite strings, in particular, are very hazardous to paramotors because the string can slice the fabric of the wing.
Nick
Gulls and pelicans are 100 times or more better fliers than a powered hang glider, I flew hang gliders for years. Those birds can easily out maneuver such a flying machine and they keep a constant look out while flying. Highly unlikely they would ever come into contact with such a large flying machine.
When we fly, that is in an aircraft, we, as pilots, constantly keep a look out all around us, as far as we can scan, so yes a manned aircraft pilot is always looking all around themselves. Now that you have learned what can happen while flying, that is a new lesson to keep in your pocket and to be aware off. A hang glider is a large object in the sky and easy to see so if it was right over your head and you were flying your drone 300 ft away, there was ample time to do something, that hang glider was not travelling very fast. It was a hang glider and not a parachute though right? Because parachutes are even slower.
they are limited to that unless out in open space where almost no one is about or over water, then they can be as low as they like, but again can not fly over people or boats or floating platforms etc.
That is incorrect, they are restricted just like any manned aircraft, when flying over built up areas or gathering of people. Check the regs to see. Over an empty beach you can fly as low as you like and the same goes for over water. But if there are people on the beach and in the water, the pilot must fly clear of them.
I used to teach the FAR part 103 syllabus, when you fly an ultralight you absolutely have to follow the same laws for heavier than ultralight aircraft, and that is when over populated areas, you must be at a minimum of 500ft unless landing or taking off, of course. When in open areas like fields out in the country or over water just 300 feet from the beach, you can drop down as low as you like. However, as has been stated, you still are not allowed to fly over people in the water, boats or floating platforms, you must veer away from them.
Therefore an ultralight has to follow the same air laws as any other light aircraft and definitely can not be skimming low over the heads of those on the ground. Ultralights are not, I repeat not, exempt from standard aviation air law.
SUperstarpup asked "where in FAR 103"
Have a read through this, you will see that there are times when an ultralight must comply with the same rules as any certificated aircraft. There is more to read but I don't have time to look for Superstarpup, so just do your own research.
On October 4, 1982, a new regulation (Part 103) applicable to the operation of ultralight vehicles became effective. This regulation defines those vehicles which may be operated as "ultralight vehicles" and provides operating rules which parallel those applicable to certificated aircraft. The Federal Aviation Regulations regarding aircraft certification, pilot certification, and aircraft registration are not applicable to ultralight vehicles or their operators. l
103-7 - The Ultralight Vehicle
Date Issued January 30, 1984 Responsible Office AFS-820 Description Provides guidance to the operators of ultralights in the United States. It discusses the elements, which make up the definition of ultralight vehicles for the purposes of operating under Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Part 103. It also discusses when an ultralight must be operated as an aircraft under the regulations applicable to certificated aircraft.
Subpart B-Operating Rules
103.9 Hazardous operations.
(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.
(b) No person may allow an object to be dropped from an ultralight vehicle if such action creates a hazard to other persons or property.
103.11 Daylight operations.
(a) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except between the hours of sunrise and sunset.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, ultralight vehicles may be operated during the twilight periods 30 minutes before official sunrise and 30 minutes after official sunset or, in Alaska, during the period of civil twilight as defined in the Air Almanac, if:
(1) The vehicle is equipped with an operating anticollision light visible for at least 3 statute miles; and
(2) All operations are conducted in uncontrolled airspace.
103.13 Operation near aircraft; right-of-way rules.
(a) Each person operating an ultralight vehicle shall maintain vigilance so as to see and avoid aircraft and shall yield the right-of-way to all aircraft.
(b) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a collision hazard with respect to any aircraft.
(c) Powered ultralights shall yield the right-of-way to unpowered ultralights.
103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.
103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.
103.19 Operations in prohibited or restricted areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in prohibited or restricted areas unless that person has permission from the using or controlling agency, as appropriate.
103.20 Flight Restrictions in the Proximity of Certain Areas Designated by Notice to Airmen.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in areas designated in a Notice to Airmen under 91.141 or 91.143 of this chapter, unless authorized by ATC.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except by visual reference with the surface.
Have a read through this, you will see that there are times when an ultralight must comply with the same rules as any certificated aircraft. There is more to read but I don't have time to look for Superstarpup, so just do your own research.
On October 4, 1982, a new regulation (Part 103) applicable to the operation of ultralight vehicles became effective. This regulation defines those vehicles which may be operated as "ultralight vehicles" and provides operating rules which parallel those applicable to certificated aircraft. The Federal Aviation Regulations regarding aircraft certification, pilot certification, and aircraft registration are not applicable to ultralight vehicles or their operators. l
103-7 - The Ultralight Vehicle
Date Issued January 30, 1984 Responsible Office AFS-820 Description Provides guidance to the operators of ultralights in the United States. It discusses the elements, which make up the definition of ultralight vehicles for the purposes of operating under Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Part 103. It also discusses when an ultralight must be operated as an aircraft under the regulations applicable to certificated aircraft.
- AC 103-7 (PDF, 3.9 MB)
- Appx1-4.pdf (PDF)
Subpart B-Operating Rules
103.9 Hazardous operations.
(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.
(b) No person may allow an object to be dropped from an ultralight vehicle if such action creates a hazard to other persons or property.
103.11 Daylight operations.
(a) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except between the hours of sunrise and sunset.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, ultralight vehicles may be operated during the twilight periods 30 minutes before official sunrise and 30 minutes after official sunset or, in Alaska, during the period of civil twilight as defined in the Air Almanac, if:
(1) The vehicle is equipped with an operating anticollision light visible for at least 3 statute miles; and
(2) All operations are conducted in uncontrolled airspace.
103.13 Operation near aircraft; right-of-way rules.
(a) Each person operating an ultralight vehicle shall maintain vigilance so as to see and avoid aircraft and shall yield the right-of-way to all aircraft.
(b) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a collision hazard with respect to any aircraft.
(c) Powered ultralights shall yield the right-of-way to unpowered ultralights.
103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.
103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.
103.19 Operations in prohibited or restricted areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in prohibited or restricted areas unless that person has permission from the using or controlling agency, as appropriate.
103.20 Flight Restrictions in the Proximity of Certain Areas Designated by Notice to Airmen.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in areas designated in a Notice to Airmen under 91.141 or 91.143 of this chapter, unless authorized by ATC.
- Notice: Effective October 11, 2001, 103.20 is amended as follows (per Federal Register page 66 FR 47378):
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in areas designated in a Notice to Airmen under § 91.137, § 91.138, § 91.141, § 91.143 or § 91.145 of this chapter, unless authorized by:
- (a) Air Traffic Control (ATC); or
(b) A Flight Standards Certificate of Waiver or Authorization issued for the demonstration or event.
- (a) Air Traffic Control (ATC); or
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except by visual reference with the surface.
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AnzacJack
Australian Defence Veteran
I read all of that yesterday, including that ac (bored in a hotel room.) no where does it say an ultralight vehicle has to comply with pt 91. Only part 103. Which is why i was wondering where it says ultralight vehicles have to comply with both parts.
I do find it a bit odd that when they drafted those they took pains to differentiate between a “vehicle” and an “aircraft” based on mainly on weight, when they now happily refer to drones that weigh 250 odd pounds less as “aircraft.”
iowahill
Well-Known Member
Powered hang gliders have been around since the mid to late 1970's, an early example being as when Jack McCormack hung a chainsaw motor on a Mantal hang glider for powered flight. And there are possible even earlier examples. So there should be no surprise to find revivalists doing the same thing these days. I had a Pterodacyl Ascender that I built in 1983 that logged many happy hours of soaring!
Technically, I'd say you are wrong. First, there is no FAR requiring a 500'agl minimum over 'populated' areas. Fixed wing manned aircraft are required to stay 1000'agl min over densely populated areas. Rotor craft don't seem to have any actual minimum. Both are generally restricted to a 500' clearance from people and buildings, but that is not an altitude restriction. The FAA is quite clear, an ultralight vehicle is NOT an aircraft and therefore not subject to FARs specific to aircraft. If ultralight vehicles were subject to the FARs for aircraft, one would need pilot's license to fly one and they would have to have N numbers.
FAR 103.15 states that one may not fly an ultralight vehicle over congested areas or an open air assemble of people. That means 'not over' no matter how high! While the definition of 'congested area' is not very well defined, the restriction is absolute: no matter how high.
When it comes to low level flight, FAR 103.9 (a) says one may not fly in a manner that creates a hazard to persons or property. And that's it.
As far as the OP's example, it's possible that FAR 103.9 (a) could be interpreted to restrict an ultralight vehicle from flying close to people on the beach. If the number of people on the beach constitutes an 'open air assemble of people', than an ultralight may not over fly them at any altitude.
As long as an ultralight vehicle is operated within FAR 103.9 (a) and FAR 103.15, it can be flown as low as the pilot wants. As a practical matter, except for the lack of a 500' clearance requirement, this is actually much more restrictive than for manned aircraft.
Nick
CyrusBlack
Well-Known Member
Reading the link you posted about this contraption I noticed at the bottom it stated:
TrikeBuggy Delta has been Discontinued
Due to the lack of interest in this Ultralight, we have suspended making it until further notice.
TrikeBuggy Delta has been Discontinued
Due to the lack of interest in this Ultralight, we have suspended making it until further notice.
It states that - "This regulation defines those vehicles which may be operated as "ultralight vehicles" and provides operating rules which parallel those applicable to certificated aircraft. "
That means that the rules for a Cessna 172, for example have to be followed by the Ultralight pilot, when flying in areas that require the pilot to fly by rules set out by the FAA, that means GA and Ultralight must comply with the same rules. If you read the rules then you saw that an ultralight was not allowed to fly over built up areas, or gather of people on the ground.
The FAA does not specify how many people comprise of a gather, and they do this to ensure that when a case is brought, they have the movement to determine if this was to their advantage to enforce the infringement. Since all aircraft are have no minimum altitude when in wide open areas, such as the open range for example in Colorado, or over water (as long as they are not flying over people or boats etc.) then both an ultralight and a GA aircraft can be right down on the deck.
It also states the following:
"...definition of ultralight vehicles for the purposes of operating under Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Part 103. It also discusses when an ultralight must be operated as an aircraft under the regulations applicable to certificated aircraft."
This is the section that will specify where an ultralight must comply with GA flight regs. If you think that an ultralight pilot can fly as high or low as he pleases and has no laws applying to him, then you had better call your local FISDO and ask them your question. They will enlighten you.
Also the FAA chose to call them vehicles because aircraft had to comply with certain build and safety standards, whereby an ultralight did not. The FAA choose their wording very carefully, to suit themselves when a legal confrontation ensues.
I think the issue is being aware there is something out there but initially not knowing where it's at or if your flying is a threat to their safety. From what was said the OP's drone was in his visual line of sight. That said you hear something and don't know where it is and it's going to take you some time, maybe a few seconds, to see and interpret if there is any possibility of the other aircraft, given it's altitude, speed and direction or going to result in a conflict. No one to blame here. It's the type of thing that can happen to anyone sharing airspace, especially if it was a situation where the powered glider was gliding in without power and then starts the engine.
Thanks. That’s why i led with the admission i didn’t know anything about ultralights, but i knew the 300’ the op mentioned didn’t make sense. I read the ac, but i also just glanced at the background section, which is where i missed that. I would have thought the faa would have wielded 103.9 in much the same way they use 91.13.
I understand why they called them “vehicles” and not “aircraft,” my point was more joking about calling drones aircraft.
As for your suggestion to call the fsdo for enlightenment, I’m good, this was more of an academic discussion for me. 91.119(d)(2) would have come to mind before calling them, but I have little to no interest in flying lawn chair based vehicles, but hey if you like flying things powered by lawn mower engines, knock yourself out.
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