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How much ND Filter is too much?

Perhaps since there is so much fixation on the facts it may be wise to wax philosophic.
The problem is that the facts have been ignored.
It would be more productive to actually look at them.
Post #39 points out something very relevant.
In case you missed what was being said, the red arrows show what was being said .. which is the actual scientific fact
i-Wk7PNNg-XL.jpg

Consider this:
The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.
Yes ... consider it.
 
Given your accusations of trolling please allow me to make thing very clear for you.

Aside from being obvious in the image itself your claim of "no blow highlights" is disproved by the histogram depicted in your Lightroom screenshot. As you may appreciate RHS is extreme highlights, vertical axis represents increasing image area. The fact you can't observe any clear area to the right of the histogram (the curve passes through the end) reveals that a small component of the image is clipped. This is what you are seeing in the image. That area will be displayed as pure white. Allpixels in that area are represented by the max luminance value the sensor can record. No opinion required here.
Close and I am now glad that we can discuss this being on the same page. The arrow in the upper right part of the histogram is the out of gambit warning which is turned on, this is the same indictor that would trip if there was any out of gambit highlights or close to being clipped highlights. Thats the part that is shaded red in the actual picture. In this case its actually giving me a warning that the blue channel is almost out of gambit in the parts its shaded in the actual photo. You can see that it is telling me the level for each channel in the warning areas. We know that in gambit is 256 levels for each channel. In this area that that gambit warning is being tripped the pixel value is Red:152 Green:211 and Blue: 255. So the blue channel is close to being clipped but not the other channels and it isn't actually being clipped. You'd get a false color if it was clipped which would mean you'd have to adjust the HSL values to correct it.

Thats not the part you guys have an issue with which is the white water. If highlights were being clipped or close to being clipped it would have tripped the out of gambit warning like it did with the blue in the sky. This is precisely why I know its not being clipped. 71990
 
I've taken several color samples which are marked and number coded at the top with the level of each channel for that color sample 71993
Im glad we are able to have this technical conversation and everybody is understanding the methods I used now. Its much better then before
 
The problem is that the facts have been ignored.
It would be more productive to actually look at them.
Post #39 points out something very relevant.
In case you missed what was being said, the red arrows show what was being said .. which is the actual scientific fact
i-Wk7PNNg-XL.jpg


Yes ... consider it.
Thats not out of gambit see post above. If there are other color samples you'd like me to take I'd be happy to do so.
 
Close and I am now glad that we can discuss this being on the same page. The arrow in the upper right part of the histogram is the out of gambit warning which is turned on, this is the same indictor that would trip if there was any out of gambit highlights or close to being clipped highlights. Thats the part that is shaded red in the actual picture. In this case its actually giving me a warning that the blue channel is almost out of gambit in the parts its shaded in the actual photo. You can see that it is telling me the level for each channel in the warning areas. We know that in gambit is 256 levels for each channel. In this area that that gambit warning is being tripped the pixel value is Red:152 Green:211 and Blue: 255. So the blue channel is close to being clipped but not the other channels and it isn't actually being clipped. You'd get a false color if it was clipped which would mean you'd have to adjust the HSL values to correct it.

Thats not the part you guys have an issue with which is the white water. If highlights were being clipped or close to being clipped it would have tripped the out of gambit warning like it did with the blue in the sky. This is precisely why I know its not being clipped. View attachment 71990
I’m sorry but your missing an important fact. You need to pay closer attention to the histogram and the image rendering in Lightroom. Clipping (loss or detail) for highlights occurs at a luminance value or around 240, 242 to 245 from memory. The clipping warning (red areas depicted in the image preview) are triggered at or close to 255. Natural water can’t appear as depicted in the image in any lighting circumstances absent gross overexposure.
 
I've taken several color samples which are marked and number coded at the top with the level of each channel for that color sample View attachment 71993
Im glad we are able to have this technical conversation and everybody is understanding the methods I used now. Its much better then before
I should have refreshed my browser prior to responding above. Your recent exercise serves to further evidence the clipping in the water. All areas where the luminance exceeds 250 you have little to no chance do recovering any detail. It’s a known limitation of digital imaging. Those areas would be black on a film negative.
 
Thats not out of gambit see post above. If there are other color samples you'd like me to take I'd be happy to do so.
The image is overexposed and your eyes should tell you all you need to know.
All the pseudotechnical mumbo jumbo doesn't change that.
 
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Close and I am now glad that we can discuss this being on the same page. The arrow in the upper right part of the histogram is the out of gambit warning which is turned on, this is the same indictor that would trip if there was any out of gambit highlights or close to being clipped highlights. Thats the part that is shaded red in the actual picture. In this case its actually giving me a warning that the blue channel is almost out of gambit in the parts its shaded in the actual photo. You can see that it is telling me the level for each channel in the warning areas. We know that in gambit is 256 levels for each channel. In this area that that gambit warning is being tripped the pixel value is Red:152 Green:211 and Blue: 255. So the blue channel is close to being clipped but not the other channels and it isn't actually being clipped. You'd get a false color if it was clipped which would mean you'd have to adjust the HSL values to correct it.

Thats not the part you guys have an issue with which is the white water. If highlights were being clipped or close to being clipped it would have tripped the out of gambit warning like it did with the blue in the sky. This is precisely why I know its not being clipped. View attachment 71990
To the extent your interested in actually appreciating how this works the max luminance value that the camera sensor is able to record is 255. Everything at or beyond this point is clipped.
 
I’m sorry but your missing an important fact. You need to pay closer attention to the histogram and the image rendering in Lightroom. Clipping (loss or detail) for highlights occurs at a luminance value or around 240, 242 to 245 from memory. The clipping warning (red areas depicted in the image preview) are triggered at or close to 255. Natural water can’t appear as depicted in the image in any lighting circumstances absent gross overexposure.

I actually appreciate this and my above comment was really aimed elsewhere. Yea totally I think it has to do with the human eye’s ability to perceive small changes in luminance in the upper end.

I agree that HDR solves this as I believe I’ve said before.

The water doesn’t look natural because it’s not suppose suppose to. The longer exposure caused that and that was the creative license.

So 0-255 then? See I learned something! I was actually curious about that.

Its much more enjoyable to have discussions this way.

Quick somebody close the thread before things go off the rails again.
 
pseudotechnical mumbo jumbo
This is the problem Meta4. Remarks like yours above are equal only to your other OPINION that his (my, and all others reading this) eyes should tell him everything you need to know.

Perhaps I should have waxed philosophical with my favorite maxim from grade school instead. It starts:
Opinions are like . . . everyone has one and they all stink.
 
The water doesn’t look natural because it’s not suppose suppose to. The longer exposure caused that and that was the creative license.
As mentioned previously, it has softened because of motion and a slower shutter speed.
But it's also overexposed and burnt out.
It's not one or the other, it's both.
 
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This is the problem Meta4. Remarks like yours above are equal only to your other OPINION that his (my, and all others reading this) eyes should tell him everything you need to know.
Opinions are like . . . everyone has one and they all stink.
You've done plenty to inject "personal reactions or hyperbole " but absolutely nothing relating to the technical issue.
When you do I might pay attention.
 
You've done plenty to inject "personal reactions or hyperbole " but absolutely nothing relating to the technical issue.
When you do I might pay attention.

Meta4 if you want to talk technical details we are doing that but you only seem to want to do that when you think it supports your opinion and then revert to calling it
pseudotechnical mumbo jumbo.
When it doesn’t.
 
Why should I when there are those like Brett8883 who can do it so much better than I can?

I see forums like this as maintaining their educational integrity only when the personal reactions and hyperbole are kept to a minimum. Brett8883 has done that repeatedly despite the veiled attacks.

Now, please allow me to spare you your next post of pointing out my own failure to observe my favorite grade school maxim. ? Levity is in order.
 
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I actually appreciate this and my above comment was really aimed elsewhere. Yea totally I think it has to do with the human eye’s ability to perceive small changes in luminance in the upper end.

I agree that HDR solves this as I believe I’ve said before.

The water doesn’t look natural because it’s not suppose suppose to. The longer exposure caused that and that was the creative license.

So 0-255 then? See I learned something! I was actually curious about that.

Its much more enjoyable to have discussions this way.

Quick somebody close the thread before things go off the rails again.
Here you go again with the strawman tactics- I never said anything about the human eyes perception. Your own efforts in Lightroom reveal significant portions of the water are clipped. This is not subjective it’s reality.

The ND has done very little in this image to enhance the appearance of the water flow. A shutter speed of 1/30s (as is revealed by the EXIF data to have been used in this case) is insufficient to introduce any real creative enhancement. 1/2s seems to be the starting point.
 
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Here you go again with the strawman tactics- I never said anything about the human eyes perception. Your own efforts in Lightroom reveal significant portions of the water are clipped. This is not subjective it’s reality.

The ND has done very little in this image to enhance the appearance of the water flow. A shutter speed of 1/30s (as is revealed by the EXIF data to have been used in this case) is insufficient to introduce any real creative enhancement. 1/2s seems to be the starting point.

I like the photo if you don’t thats fine I don’t give a ?, it’s not my photo.
 
I like the photo if you don’t thats fine I don’t give a ?, it’s not my photo.
Here we go again..... Did I say I didn't like the photo? I commented on the pleasing composition and the apparent artistic eye of the OP however that isn't relevant to the subject of our discussion.

You have done everything but directly address my original contention to your claim that the image had no clipping in the highlights. You have proved by your own efforts in Lightroom that significant portions of the water are clipped both by the histogram and directly sampled luminance values. Whether you choose to concede it or not its fact.

There are people who are interested in what is true. I am grateful for the instances where people have taken the time to point out errors in my knowledge or understanding. We are all wrong about things every day.
 
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Here we go again..... Did I say I didn't like the photo? I commented on the pleasing composition and the apparent artistic eye of the OP however that isn't relevant to the subject of our discussion.

You have done everything but directly address my original contention to your claim that the image had no clipping in the highlights. You have proved by your own efforts in Lightroom that significant portions of the water are clipped both by the histogram and directly sampled luminance values. Whether you choose to concede it or not its fact.

There are people who are interested in what is true. I am grateful for the instances where people have taken the time to point out errors in my knowledge or understanding. We are all wrong about things every day.

Your definition of “clipping” keeps changing
Clipping (loss or detail) for highlights occurs at a luminance value or around 240, 242 to 245 from memory.

To the extent your interested in actually appreciating how this works the max luminance value that the camera sensor is able to record is 255. Everything at or beyond this point is clipped.

It’s like a moving target with you. For the record clipping “In digital photography and digital video, clipping is a result of capturing or processing an image where the intensity in a certain area falls outside the minimum and maximum intensity which can be represented.“9E5DC7E6-A1EB-4F65-AD3A-A4D729AA2E9B.jpeg

You show me portions of that water more then a tiny spec that falls outside the maximum range as you correctly defined it as 255.

I’ve given people indisputable evidence that this did not occur. I’m not interested in arguing with you any more.
 
Your definition of “clipping” keeps changing



It’s like a moving target with you. For the record clipping “In digital photography and digital video, clipping is a result of capturing or processing an image where the intensity in a certain area falls outside the minimum and maximum intensity which can be represented.“View attachment 72011

You show me portions of that water more then a tiny spec that falls outside the maximum range as you correctly defined it as 255.

I’ve given people indisputable evidence that this did not occur. I’m not interested in arguing with you any more.
Again you choose to misrepresent my position. I concede the possibility of genuine misunderstanding however I suspect dishonesty. What I said is that values at or close to 255 are indistinguishable from pure white. I also informed you that unfortunately the overexposure warning indicators in Lightroom can’t be relied on for absolute accuracy. Anyone who is interested can verify both as fact. As @Meta4 has pointed out though- anyone looking at the image can see that the pure white areas in the water aren’t a depiction of motion blur. They are in effect areas if the image that were t recorded. Clipped. What you have shown is evidence the image is clipped. I can’t believe you can’t see that so that makes further discussion a waste of time. Not for the reasons you stated though.
 
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