ND Filter for Photos

[Mossiback]

I don't record a lot of video, but one problem with polarized filters for video is when the sun angle changes the brightness of the sky will change making it difficult to stitch together in post. Other than that, I have no problem us NP filters. I just make my best estimate at launch and go for it.

 

[brettbrandon]

Agreed, but you can handle this in post with near perfection in Lightroom.

I would like to try a gradient filter on sunsets as yes you can work on it in post, but if you can get more light in the dark areas in the capture, you get less noise bringing the dark areas out in post.
Anyone have a suggestion on a typical value to try?

 

[zocalo]

Agreed, but you can handle this in post with near perfection in Lightroom.

Only to a point, beyond which you are either going to have noisy shadow detail and/or some blown highlights. Depends on how contrasty your scenery is, obviously, but shooting into the sun at sunrise/sunset can easily exceed the DR of even a fullframe DSLR, let alone the 1" sensor of an M2P. It really depends on what you (or, if shooting commerically, your clients) are prepared to accept.

With all the debate over the pros and cons of filters vs. flexibility on drones, I'd say GNDs for sunrise/sunset are probably something that at least ought to be considered if you want the best possible results. Unlike CPs, where you do have to second guess where to set them, a GND is at least predictable, although you are probably going to have to crop to avoid having the horizon bisect the frame. No, you're not going to need them all the time and they can be tricky to use, but it tends to be that when you need one, you *NEED* it.

 

[CanadaDrone]

The simple answer is:
Unless you have a particular reason for wanting to use long shutter speeds in daylight, there is no place in drone still photography for using ND filters.

That's what you have adjustable shutter speed for.

They are not just for long shutter speeds and often times you're handcuffed by the shutter speed. If you cannot use the aperture you want without exceeding the maximum shutter speed, you still need to use a ND filter. For example using a wide aperture in bright sunlight might exceed the drone's maximum shutter speed which is actually not that fast at all - so we use a ND to bring it back into the operational range.

 

[zocalo]

I would like to try a gradient filter on sunsets as yes you can work on it in post, but if you can get more light in the dark areas in the capture, you get less noise bringing the dark areas out in post.
Anyone have a suggestion on a typical value to try?

Generally around 2 stops (ND4) between sky and ground is a good starting point for shooting into the sun that will keep everything within the DR of the sensor, but you might need something stronger if you have a particularly dark foreground like a dense forest - ND8 or even an ND16. You can then tune the balance in Photoshop/Lightroom/whatever in post to get the desired effect. I use PolarPro filters on my M2P and they do a number of GND options that combine various starting/end densities with CPs, so you can still get to the aperture sweet spot for video and get some polarization - not too sure about the options for other filter vendors such as Skyreat, etc.

EDIT: corrected for the fact the current PP GNDs do not include a CP, but only rotate to allow for slanted horizons.

Note that the filter density has a fairly soft gradual transition to allow for uneven horizons, as you might expect, but you will still need to align the transition point with the horizon by angling the camera up/down, which can be done in flight. For a seascape that will be mid-frame (e.g. the camera will be horizontal), but might be slightly offset if you are shooting towards mountains. As a result, to avoid having the horizon dead-centre in the frame you'll almost certainly need to crop the image from the original - I generally shoot at 3:2, then crop to a 16:9 ratio or similar so I can place the horizon exactly where I want it for a pleasing composition.

 

[brettbrandon]

Generally around 2 stops (ND4) between sky and ground is a good starting point for shooting into the sun that will keep everything within the DR of the sensor, but you might need something stronger if you have a particularly dark foreground like a dense forest - ND8 or even an ND16. You can then tune the balance in Photoshop/Lightroom/whatever in post to get the desired effect. I use PolarPro filters on my M2P and they do a number of GND options that combine various starting/end densities with CPs, so you can still get to the aperture sweet spot and get some polarization - not too sure about the options for other filter vendors such as Skyreat, etc.

Note that the filter density has a fairly soft gradual transition to allow for uneven horizons, as you might expect, but you will still need to align the transition point with the horizon by angling the camera up/down, which can be done in flight. For a seascape that will be mid-frame (e.g. the camera will be horizontal), but might be slightly offset if you are shooting towards mountains. As a result, to avoid having the horizon dead-centre in the frame you'll almost certainly need to crop the image from the original - I generally shoot at 3:2, then crop to a 16:9 ratio or similar so I can place the horizon exactly where I want it for a pleasing composition.

Thank you for this info. I Have the PolarPro Cinema Series filters with 3 ND's and 3 ND/PL's. I will have to check their website for the graduated. I would also like a circular polarizer without a ND attached to it.
Heres an example of one I would have liked to get more detail in the foreground. The sky isn't real bright so ND4?

 

[Meta4]

They are not just for long shutter speeds and often times you're handcuffed by the shutter speed. If you cannot use the aperture you want without exceeding the maximum shutter speed, you still need to use a ND filter. For example using a wide aperture in bright sunlight might exceed the drone's maximum shutter speed which is actually not that fast at all - so we use a ND to bring it back into the operational range.

maximum shutter speed which is actually not that fast at all ???
Do you want to think about that again?
According to the Mavic 2 specs: Electronic Shutter: 8–1/8000s
If you buy a Nikon D850 or Canon D3 Mk4 you don't get anything faster.

 

[SteveCA]

For serious photographers, who mainly shoot near the golden hour, ND and graduated ND’s are a god send. Yes there are post processing techniques that can accomplish similar effects, but there are certain things that cannot be done effectively or optimally in post.

Shots taken in the middle of the day are not a challenge like those taken at golden hour.

I know this post is about still photography, but for video they also make the footage much smoother looking and help eliminate prop shadows which are horrible at high shutter speeds in videos taken at certain angles to the sun.

 

[zocalo]

Thank you for this info. I Have the PolarPro Cinema Series filters with 3 ND's and 3 ND/PL's. I will have to check their website for the graduated. I would also like a circular polarizer without a ND attached to it.
Heres an example of one I would have liked to get more detail in the foreground. The sky isn't real bright so ND4?

View attachment 56383

*Very* nice exposure on the sky! Yeah, I'd say either an ND4 or and ND8 would let you bring up the foreground to see all the detail, without overdoing it or having to start pushing it any further in post and introducing noise. I tend to prefer a more natural effect, e.g. you don't want the ground looking like it's the middle of day when the sky is clearly sunrise/set. YMMV.

PP do a set of three GNDs which I opted for as I also shoot video and longer still exposures (which comes with a case and the tool to swap the filter as normal). Having now checked it's only their NDs that combine CPs; their GNDs can be rotated though (presumably for slanted horizons like the edge of a mountain), hence my confusion earlier. PP's range starts with an ND8 rather than ND4, but one stop is neither here nor there really. The full set includes:

ND8 - clear (3 stops - clear)
ND16-ND4 (4 stops - 2 stops)
ND32-ND8 (5 stops - 3 stops)

The ND16-ND4 will give you 2 stops, but also lengthen the entire exposure, so the ND8-clear may be a better option for the shot above - depends on exposure time vs. wind speed. For stills the ND32-ND8 is only really useful for smoothing out moving water, but can be quite useful for video in bright sunlight to keep the frame rate at 2x.

 

[gnirtS]

Is it best to use an ND filter when taking aerial photos with the Mavic 2 Pro?

No. Its the exact opposite of what you should do when you want the most light and sharpest image possible in a still.

 

[gnirtS]

This sure looks like a blanket statement to me...

landscape photos at sunset certainly benefit from gradient ND filters. Yes you can take multiple shots and do an HDR photomerge but for single shot captures, you need a gradient ND to balance the sky/sun with the foreground.

He wasn't talking about ND Grads. And those are worthless on a drone as you cant set the horizon in flight anyway.

To get to F4.0 during full sun, which many have found to be the sharpest aperture, you might just need an ND filter.

No you won't. You use the lowest ISO and a nice fast shutter speed. Absolutely no need at all.

 

[Lees23]

Agreed, but you can handle this in post with near perfection in Lightroom.

I can’t fix it in post, because I don’t post...

 

[Meta4]

I can’t fix it in post, because I don’t post...

If you don't care enough about your images to tweak them in Photoshop or similar, why would you bother with filters?

 

[gnirtS]

They are not just for long shutter speeds and often times you're handcuffed by the shutter speed. If you cannot use the aperture you want without exceeding the maximum shutter speed, you still need to use a ND filter. For example using a wide aperture in bright sunlight might exceed the drone's maximum shutter speed which is actually not that fast at all - so we use a ND to bring it back into the operational range.

No we don't. Unless you're shooting into a thermonuclear blast, ISO100 and 1/8000th is going to be more than enough to get the aperture you want without degrading the IQ with filters.

 

[CanadaDrone]

No we don't. Unless you're shooting into a thermonuclear blast, ISO100 and 1/8000th is going to be more than enough to get the aperture you want without degrading the IQ with filters.

Try shooting at F1.4 on a beach or around sun-lit snow - it's very easy to exceed 1/8000. Even at F2.8. I regularly use ND's for this exact purpose.

Just because you haven't run into this scenario doesn't mean others haven't.

 

[CanadaDrone]

maximum shutter speed which is actually not that fast at all ???
Do you want to think about that again?
According to the Mavic 2 specs: Electronic Shutter: 8–1/8000s
If you buy a Nikon D850 or Canon D3 Mk4 you don't get anything faster.

I am very familiar with the specs, thanks. Also Canon actually does not make any camera called the D3.

1/8000 is not fast these days - DSLRs are mostly limited to 1/8000 because there are large (relative) moving parts involved. Many mirrorless cameras allow 1/32,000, and the M2P does not have a mechanical shutter or a mirror. You may not need anything faster than that, which is fine, but there are uses for it.

 

[Meta4]

Try shooting at F1.4 on a beach or around sun-lit snow - it's very easy to exceed 1/8000. Even at F2.8. I regularly use ND's for this exact purpose.
Just because you haven't run into this scenario doesn't mean others haven't.

I'm having trouble seeing how that relates to drone photography or if it's even true.
Why would you want to shoot at f1.4 in a super-bright setting?
That's why you have a controllable aperture.

If the answer is that you are particularly wanting a very shallow depth of field, that doesn't translate to drone photography since the Mavic doesn't do shallow DoF.
1/8000th at f1.4 or f2.8? How many times have you used that combination in the last 12 months on land?
How many times have you even come close to using it with your drone?

 

[gnirtS]

Try shooting at F1.4 on a beach or around sun-lit snow - it's very easy to exceed 1/8000. Even at F2.8. I regularly use ND's for this exact purpose.

Just because you haven't run into this scenario doesn't mean others haven't.

Now try f/4 on the mavic 2. No chance of hitting that shutterspeed limit even over very reflective surfaces. Its a situation that simply does not drop up in drone flying at all.

 

[CanadaDrone]

I'm having trouble seeing how that relates to drone photography or if it's even true.
Why would you want to shoot at f1.4 in a super-bright setting?
That's why you have a controllable aperture.

If the answer is that you are particularly wanting a very shallow depth of field, that doesn't translate to drone photography since the Mavic doesn't do shallow DoF.
1/8000th at f1.4 or f2.8? How many times have you used that combination in the last 12 months on land?
How many times have you even come close to using it with your drone?

Shooting at F1.4 (even wider at times) in a bright setting is extremely common for portrait photography. How may times have I used that combination on land in the last 12 months? Literally hundreds if not thousands. Portrait photographers, wedding photographers, etc. are doing that all the time.

The variable aperture is great, but of very limited use as diffraction starts negatively affecting the image after F4 - certainly more so than adding a ND filter would affect the image, so beyond F4 you are better off adding a ND than stopping down beyond F4, if possible.

As for drone photography, some people report their sharpest aperture is F2.8 - also this will give you the most shallow DOF, even though DOF is fairly deep regardless due to sensor size. Nevertheless, if you are shooting really close to your subject, you can get a little bit of isolation with F2.8. It's very easy to hit 1/8000 at F2.8 in bright conditions at ISO 100. How many times have I run into this myself - the first one that comes to mind is the last time I was on vacation in Hawaii, my girlfriend asked if I could take a photo of us with my drone. It was extremely bright and I needed a ND4 to keep it under 1/8000. I am not saying you will run into these scenarios every day, I am saying there are scenarios that exceed 1/8000. That is my only point as it was suggested earlier that there is literally no reason anyone could ever need that.

The point is not how often you would use it, the point is that there are time that some users would want it. I think all too often people think their personal usage is the limit of how people use certain devices, and in my experience that is rarely the case.

Now try f/4 on the mavic 2. No chance of hitting that shutterspeed limit even over very reflective surfaces. Its a situation that simply does not drop up in drone flying at all.

I'm sorry but you can still hit 1/8000 at F4 and ISO 100 under fairly normal conditions - I have definitely exceeded that over sun-lit snow. Also, what if I want to use F2.8? What if I wanted that little bit of subject isolation? What if my particular drone was sharpest at F2.8? There are plenty of reasons that many not apply to you but apply to someone else.

Again - I am not saying it is super common. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am saying there are scenarios where it is useful to have faster than 1/8000 regardless of if your personal usage calls for it. That is all.

 

[Meta4]

Again - I am not saying it is super common. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am saying there are scenarios where it is useful to have faster than 1/8000 regardless of if your personal usage calls for it. That is all.

Those hypothetical scenarios are all too contrived.
I'll be generous and consider them as specialised shots.
If you can't get by with a shutter speed of 1/8000th, maybe you need to lower your ISO setting, stop down a little and point your camera away from the sun.