(small rant) those claiming antenna mods do nothing...

[Fadelight]

In our hobby, the subject of antenna modifications always comes up. Inevitably, there are a great deal of people who immediately jump on them with statements about how antenna mods are worthless and how you gain nothing. or 10%. Or whatever number they want to throw out this week.

As an Amateur Radio operator (ham radio), I'd just like to take a moment to leave you all with some thoughts.

So, you got a drone, and you have flown it. Maybe even in several areas. You think you have a firm grip on how this equipment works. But here is your first food for thought. Radio frequencies and how they work are not a cookie cutter "this to this" type of scenario. In fact, how frequencies work is so vast, understanding them is a hobby in itself. Most of you only think of it as LOS (Line of sight), but you miss the part where a near infinite number of variables come into play here. Free space loss, absorption loss, diffraction, multipath, terrain, buildings, the material of structures, and even the atmosphere itself.

Then there is the understanding of various antennas and what they do. An Omnidirectional antenna works significantly different than a yagi or a parabolic.

The truth of the matter is, there are so many different types of antennas because every single situation requires something different. What works for you won't work as well for someone living in the mountains, or in a city, or on a beach, or over a corn field, or in a desert.

So for someone on the internet to say, so matter of fact, that no antenna mod is worth it for anyone, just because Joe Schmoe out in Kansas got 4 miles of range with the stock antennas is... to say the least... inaccurate.

To sum it up... if your very first questions don't pertain to where the poster lives and what terrain they are dealing with, your answer is wrong.

If you really want to learn about this, there are literally millions of free books and sites to check out. And without a doubt, it will help you out a great deal in your travels with this hobby.


And on a side note... for my use in my terrain, installing a panel antenna on my P3P took my max range from 1200' out @ 400' (less than 1/4 mile) before losing signal all together, to an immeasurable distance (battery goes dead first - More than 4 miles) at about 200' with 3% signal loss. So even assuming that at the distance my battery dies is the distance I lose my signal entirely, thats still a 1660% increase. Not the 10% I keep seeing thrown around here. Omnidirectional antennas simply do not work in the area where I live, and I am sure they don't work for a lot of other people.


We have all been around forums and the internet long enough now to understand that false information is damaging. Your words have the potential to spread like wildfire because so many people get so used to just repeating everything they read without questioning any of it. That is never any good for anyone. Help the hobby to progress. Understand the 'how' and 'why' of everything. Don't repeat your own experience like it is fact, and the only truth that exists. Because it isn't. And there isn't one person here that shouldn't know that by now, given the tons of different experiences you have all shared regarding every other aspect of this hobby.


Thank you for your time.

 

[Grauniadangel]

< / >

 

[iCollector]

Hey - nice post! nice if the words sink in!

 

[NCTurner]

...

To sum it up... if your very first questions don't pertain to where the poster lives and what terrain they are dealing with, your answer is wrong.

...

So, where do you live and what terrain are you dealing with? (see? I'm learning!)

Also, what panel antenna did you install?

 

[Fadelight]

So, where do you live and what terrain are you dealing with? (see? I'm learning!)

Also, what panel antenna did you install?

Haha excellent! I live just barely off Killington mountain in VT, and after reading through the designs and specs, I ended up going with a MaxxUAV panel antenna. And I installed it myself. I'm pretty used to working with antennas and electronics by now.

 

[Yelobird]

Fadelight thank you. As a Complete nube I was looking for a post like this. While I love forums you So need to be Selective with what info you consume vs question. There is no one size fits all but many of the answers on this subject seem so black or white and make me question even the logic thats presented. Soooo, I have recently been strongly evaluating the Evolite Kit Plus Pro Edition to possibly help my situation. Love the Mavic but the current limitation and consistancy to distance from my area makes me (Nube reminder!) uncomfortable. I am flying from a rather wooded area with several single story homes. I have a no danger flight path but the wooded nature of this area and yard take off position seems to limit my range to roughly .4 miles (1900feet). So the question, while not looking for a 10 mile miricle, would the Max Pro Kit described offer am improvement? Thanks to Anyone for guidance.

 

[PDXteriors]

That was an insanely long post.

 

[Yelobird]

That was an insanely long post.

Sorry, I'll try to keep my posts shorter than 5 words for you in the future?

 

[PDXteriors]

Thank you.

 

[kens65fb]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[Brojon]

Well - as a former microwave tech I can say that some of the designs I see are more for their futuristic raygun look than any basis in realistic antenna theory.
One appears to be a folded dipole with a passive director but the distances are wrong for 2.4 Ghz. The other I've seen is a helical design which isn't a good design from an impedance standpoint as the ratio of E to H fields is wrong - it will never be very efficient. Coils are typically used as traps or to load a dipole - not as the antenna proper.
Now a panel antenna such as what you state is a practical design - wider beam pattern than a Yagi yet still directional - a good balance.
But before you castigate everyone for being skeptical you have to realize that snake oil salesmen are still alive and well and not all of the antennas being marketed are worth risking your bird over.

 

[Fadelight]

Well - as a former microwave tech I can say that some of the designs I see are more for their futuristic raygun look than any basis in realistic antenna theory.
One appears to be a folded dipole with a passive director but the distances are wrong for 2.4 Ghz. The other I've seen is a helical design which isn't a good design from an impedance standpoint as the ratio of E to H fields is wrong - it will never be very efficient. Coils are typically used as traps or to load a dipole - not as the antenna proper.
Now a panel antenna such as what you state is a practical design - wider beam pattern than a Yagi yet still directional - a good balance.
But before you castigate everyone for being skeptical you have to realize that snake oil salesmen are still alive and well and not all of the antennas being marketed are worth risking your bird over.

You're mistaken. I castigate no one for being skeptical. Skeptics are what I want to see. It is the people that state so matter of fact that it won't work for anyone because it didn't work for them that I am trying to get to read more and learn more and not treat everything so black and white. As a former microwave tech, you of all people should see what I am trying to say here. Different antennas offer different functions. This is far from a "one size fits all" type of field. But that is exactly how some members here are treating it.

If an argument were to break out here about a particular antenna, and the subject quickly turned to something with information like you just posted, I would smile and gladly read every word of it. Its the "NO antenna mod is worth it. I live in a corn field and get 4 miles out of my omnidirectional antenna, and you will too." statements that rub me the wrong way.

At the end of the day, my post isn't meant to put anyone down. Its simply a "blanket statements don't apply" post. Surely you understand that. (I'm really hoping your response was just that you didn't thoroughly read my post.)

 

[hoggdoc]

In our hobby, the subject of antenna modifications always comes up. Inevitably, there are a great deal of people who immediately jump on them with statements about how antenna mods are worthless and how you gain nothing. or 10%. Or whatever number they want to throw out this week.

As an Amateur Radio operator (ham radio), I'd just like to take a moment to leave you all with some thoughts.

So, you got a drone, and you have flown it. Maybe even in several areas. You think you have a firm grip on how this equipment works. But here is your first food for thought. Radio frequencies and how they work are not a cookie cutter "this to this" type of scenario. In fact, how frequencies work is so vast, understanding them is a hobby in itself. Most of you only think of it as LOS (Line of sight), but you miss the part where a near infinite number of variables come into play here. Free space loss, absorption loss, diffraction, multipath, terrain, buildings, the material of structures, and even the atmosphere itself.

Then there is the understanding of various antennas and what they do. An Omnidirectional antenna works significantly different than a yagi or a parabolic.

The truth of the matter is, there are so many different types of antennas because every single situation requires something different. What works for you won't work as well for someone living in the mountains, or in a city, or on a beach, or over a corn field, or in a desert.

So for someone on the internet to say, so matter of fact, that no antenna mod is worth it for anyone, just because Joe Schmoe out in Kansas got 4 miles of range with the stock antennas is... to say the least... inaccurate.

To sum it up... if your very first questions don't pertain to where the poster lives and what terrain they are dealing with, your answer is wrong.

If you really want to learn about this, there are literally millions of free books and sites to check out. And without a doubt, it will help you out a great deal in your travels with this hobby.


And on a side note... for my use in my terrain, installing a panel antenna on my P3P took my max range from 1200' out @ 400' (less than 1/4 mile) before losing signal all together, to an immeasurable distance (battery goes dead first - More than 4 miles) at about 200' with 3% signal loss. So even assuming that at the distance my battery dies is the distance I lose my signal entirely, thats still a 1660% increase. Not the 10% I keep seeing thrown around here. Omnidirectional antennas simply do not work in the area where I live, and I am sure they don't work for a lot of other people.


We have all been around forums and the internet long enough now to understand that false information is damaging. Your words have the potential to spread like wildfire because so many people get so used to just repeating everything they read without questioning any of it. That is never any good for anyone. Help the hobby to progress. Understand the 'how' and 'why' of everything. Don't repeat your own experience like it is fact, and the only truth that exists. Because it isn't. And there isn't one person here that shouldn't know that by now, given the tons of different experiences you have all shared regarding every other aspect of this hobby.


Thank you for your time.

Excellent post. I too am an ole HAM from the 70's who spent most of his on-air time pushing the limits of 2 meter SSB communications. Omni antennas are great for mobile communications when using a good repeater system, but for RC's they are a simply cheap way for the manufactures to get products into the market place. The truth is their performance is not very good. The fact of the matter is that most RC flight is in front of the pilot which establishes a strong case for directional antenna designs, dishes, yagis, or flat panels.

But we must remember that almost all RC flying aircrafts today are using at least 2.4gHz communications for their control frequencies. Because these are 'microwave" frequencies their ability to bend and penetrate are very limited. Also the design of antennas is critical to provide solid communications with the receiver in the aircraft, and generally a piece of wire is very good. Designing good microwave antennas takes education and experience along with very expensive test equipment. One the design is completed them manufacturing must follow the design within very close tolerances or all will be for nothing.

If you want to learn about RC antenna design and building I strongly suggest you Google Alex Greve (aka IBCrazy) and check out some of his Youtube Videos on antenna design.....

 

[4wd]

Before signal disappears Mavic generally runs out of battery unless that is somehow increased too.
You'd also need to modify the onboard transmitter to have much effect both ways? - more difficult.
The more bulky Phantom and other TX might 'wear' larger antennas easier, but half the purpose of Mavic is to be very compact and portable, maxing out the range is not something most of us are doing more than once or twice to test.
In short antenna mods might well work but it isn't a cost effective thing to do for most owners because range is already more than adequate.

 

[wayy510]

In our hobby, the subject of antenna modifications always comes up. Inevitably, there are a great deal of people who immediately jump on them with statements about how antenna mods are worthless and how you gain nothing. or 10%. Or whatever number they want to throw out this week.

As an Amateur Radio operator (ham radio), I'd just like to take a moment to leave you all with some thoughts.

So, you got a drone, and you have flown it. Maybe even in several areas. You think you have a firm grip on how this equipment works. But here is your first food for thought. Radio frequencies and how they work are not a cookie cutter "this to this" type of scenario. In fact, how frequencies work is so vast, understanding them is a hobby in itself. Most of you only think of it as LOS (Line of sight), but you miss the part where a near infinite number of variables come into play here. Free space loss, absorption loss, diffraction, multipath, terrain, buildings, the material of structures, and even the atmosphere itself.

Then there is the understanding of various antennas and what they do. An Omnidirectional antenna works significantly different than a yagi or a parabolic.

The truth of the matter is, there are so many different types of antennas because every single situation requires something different. What works for you won't work as well for someone living in the mountains, or in a city, or on a beach, or over a corn field, or in a desert.

So for someone on the internet to say, so matter of fact, that no antenna mod is worth it for anyone, just because Joe Schmoe out in Kansas got 4 miles of range with the stock antennas is... to say the least... inaccurate.

To sum it up... if your very first questions don't pertain to where the poster lives and what terrain they are dealing with, your answer is wrong.

If you really want to learn about this, there are literally millions of free books and sites to check out. And without a doubt, it will help you out a great deal in your travels with this hobby.


And on a side note... for my use in my terrain, installing a panel antenna on my P3P took my max range from 1200' out @ 400' (less than 1/4 mile) before losing signal all together, to an immeasurable distance (battery goes dead first - More than 4 miles) at about 200' with 3% signal loss. So even assuming that at the distance my battery dies is the distance I lose my signal entirely, thats still a 1660% increase. Not the 10% I keep seeing thrown around here. Omnidirectional antennas simply do not work in the area where I live, and I am sure they don't work for a lot of other people.


We have all been around forums and the internet long enough now to understand that false information is damaging. Your words have the potential to spread like wildfire because so many people get so used to just repeating everything they read without questioning any of it. That is never any good for anyone. Help the hobby to progress. Understand the 'how' and 'why' of everything. Don't repeat your own experience like it is fact, and the only truth that exists. Because it isn't. And there isn't one person here that shouldn't know that by now, given the tons of different experiences you have all shared regarding every other aspect of this hobby.


Thank you for your time.

I'm sure you're right about all the bs antenna jargon as I haven't a clue. I know my work radio uses a series or repeaters around the city but my Mavic goes almost farther then the battery can handle on stock antennas.

You need to junk that ****** Phantom 3 and get s Mavic if all you get is 1200' before compete signal loss.

 

[Porto]

In our hobby, the subject of antenna modifications always comes up. Inevitably, there are a great deal of people who immediately jump on them with statements about how antenna mods are worthless and how you gain nothing. or 10%. Or whatever number they want to throw out this week.

As an Amateur Radio operator (ham radio), I'd just like to take a moment to leave you all with some thoughts.

So, you got a drone, and you have flown it. Maybe even in several areas. You think you have a firm grip on how this equipment works. But here is your first food for thought. Radio frequencies and how they work are not a cookie cutter "this to this" type of scenario. In fact, how frequencies work is so vast, understanding them is a hobby in itself. Most of you only think of it as LOS (Line of sight), but you miss the part where a near infinite number of variables come into play here. Free space loss, absorption loss, diffraction, multipath, terrain, buildings, the material of structures, and even the atmosphere itself.

Then there is the understanding of various antennas and what they do. An Omnidirectional antenna works significantly different than a yagi or a parabolic.

The truth of the matter is, there are so many different types of antennas because every single situation requires something different. What works for you won't work as well for someone living in the mountains, or in a city, or on a beach, or over a corn field, or in a desert.

So for someone on the internet to say, so matter of fact, that no antenna mod is worth it for anyone, just because Joe Schmoe out in Kansas got 4 miles of range with the stock antennas is... to say the least... inaccurate.

To sum it up... if your very first questions don't pertain to where the poster lives and what terrain they are dealing with, your answer is wrong.

If you really want to learn about this, there are literally millions of free books and sites to check out. And without a doubt, it will help you out a great deal in your travels with this hobby.


And on a side note... for my use in my terrain, installing a panel antenna on my P3P took my max range from 1200' out @ 400' (less than 1/4 mile) before losing signal all together, to an immeasurable distance (battery goes dead first - More than 4 miles) at about 200' with 3% signal loss. So even assuming that at the distance my battery dies is the distance I lose my signal entirely, thats still a 1660% increase. Not the 10% I keep seeing thrown around here. Omnidirectional antennas simply do not work in the area where I live, and I am sure they don't work for a lot of other people.


We have all been around forums and the internet long enough now to understand that false information is damaging. Your words have the potential to spread like wildfire because so many people get so used to just repeating everything they read without questioning any of it. That is never any good for anyone. Help the hobby to progress. Understand the 'how' and 'why' of everything. Don't repeat your own experience like it is fact, and the only truth that exists. Because it isn't. And there isn't one person here that shouldn't know that by now, given the tons of different experiences you have all shared regarding every other aspect of this hobby.


Thank you for your time.

Have you done antenna mods on the Mavic, or you have only done so on the P3P?

 

[gnirtS]

There are plenty of antenna mods out there that do absolutely nothing or make things worse. The use poor quality cabling or amps, they arent tuned correctly, the sizing is wrong, losses are high and many many other things. Lots are snake oil and THATS the problem.

Rather than percentages that are utterly useless for RF comparisons if anyone truly wants to they should measure the ERP and field strength using proper units along with beam spread plans. Without that everything is an uncontrolled test and could easily be placebo effect.

RF performance is one of the few things you CAN put exact figures on but nobody does it, especially manufacturers of the worthless boosters...

Yes some will work, IF its properly tuned and matched to the mavic hardware and antenna wise but a lot dont work.

 

[Brojon]

I was military trained in microwave and RF as a technician. College minor was EE and I was on the team that designed and built NUSAT - the world's first satellite built entirely by an educational institution. It's mission was to analyze air traffic control radar patterns for the FAA - that would be microwaves.
There's my bona fides.
The context you insist must be present for any given evaluation is true. While it's also true is that every evaluation I've read states clearly the test conditions such as urban, heavy wifi, much of this is entirely subjective and possibly even more misleading than no info. Most issues are best guess of the operator - which face it, most people with a non-tech background know zip about and they simply parrot what other people have mentioned in passing such as "wifi interference" and "multipath". What is meant by that exactly and how do you evaluate it's influence on flying - the practical reason for knowing? In any case that's ALL we have to go on so far - word of mouth. We don't even have disclaimers from folks that test: were they compensated? Given an "evaluation unit" - IOW do they have motivation to report positively? Then the person may have had excessive expectations and says nasty things about a product that actually works pretty well.
But we don't know. There simply isn't enough information to make any meaningful analysis.
I put the blame squarely on the manufacturers for providing absolutely zero technical information on their products. All hams that have progressed beyond 2 meter HT's would know to look for performance graphs and specs on any equipment they're considering. Look in any ARRL handbook - especially their excellent antennas book - and you will see field strength charts that give accurate antenna propagation patterns and gain figures. From this you have the information to make intelligent decisions. Nothing else counts because as you correctly state word of mouth is hardly a ringing endorsement with so many variables including financial incentives and psychological ones such as cognitive dissonance.
I'm seriously at a loss to explain how anyone can develop microwave transmission and reception equipment without test results to measure progress and see what is happening during development.
There's actually a pretty big market for 2.4 Ghz antennas - I actually worry some of the products are "adapted" from a commercial product with no real understanding of design.
Here is a specification sheet for a commercial 2.4Ghz 18dbi panel antenna. This is the sort of info I'd expect to see if the product was developed and evaluated with test equipment.

 

[Jenkins]

Title says "small rant". I drifted off halfway through

 

[Fadelight]

I'm sure you're right about all the bs antenna jargon as I haven't a clue. I know my work radio uses a series or repeaters around the city but my Mavic goes almost farther then the battery can handle on stock antennas.

You need to junk that ****** Phantom 3 and get s Mavic if all you get is 1200' before compete signal loss.

Lol you did not read correctly. The mavic is the one with the issues. The P3P has a different antenna on it and I have outstanding range on it.

And your post directly reflects what I am trying to say. Yours works in a city so if mine doesn't function the same in the mountains, I need to get rid of it. This is a horrible understanding of antennas and RF design.

So clearly you just came here to post crap and not actually read. Cool. Mission accomplished.