What speaks against recording every video at 60fps vs 30fps with a drone?

[brett8883]

If the shutter is faster the frame rate then yes it's a moot point. And for most people most of the time that is the case. In my original reply I was talking about how long the sensor was available to collect data. Available is the key word. I misspoke by taking it farther than that. But if you need to maintain your 180 degree shutter angle there is an fact an exposure issue to deal with somehow.

Yet I also mentioned that there are other aspects to conside. One is a consideration of maximum bitrate the equipment is capable of. If there were not other things to consider it would just be a matter of a firmware upgrade to get the m2p to shoot 120fps.

I stick to my guns. Shoot for your intended use rather then maxing out the capability or your equipment. This is sound advice regardless of what fine point is drawn to argue.

You hadn’t quite fully formed the idea but you were on the right track. It’s not how frame rate effects exposure directly but how it affects shutter speed which affects exposure. A slower frame rate allows you to use a slower shutter since your shutter can never be faster than your frame rate.

If you have 100 ISO 1/30 shutter and 30FPS and your video is properly exposed then switching to 60 FPS would force you to use a shutter of 1/60 making your video under exposed. Especially in low light conditions using a lower frame rate will allow you to use a slower shutter and prevents the necessity for a higher ISO.

I’ve heard people say that you should shoot in the frame rate you intend to output in but I’ve never gotten an explanation for the technical difference between shooting in 30fps and shooting in 60fps and throwing out every other frame. Unless somebody can articulate what that difference is it seems those two are the same thing. However if you wanted to output your clip at 30 FPS and shoot in 60FPS you’d have to account for that when choosing tour frame rate. in that case you’d still need a shutter speed of 1/60 to get 180 degrees of motion blur. Having those extra frames just means you have more latitude in post to do some retiming if needed.

 

[brett8883]

Hi, ordered the Mavic Air 2 and I am still relative new to videography.

What speaks against recording every video at 60fps vs 30fps with a drone? I am aware that the file size will increase and I will require more light but since I live in Florida and shoot most of my videos in sunlight I am not too concerned about it.

Since I edit videos on a 30fps timeline, I could slow down my footage by 50% but at the same time could playback my footage in real time or not as If I would have recorded it in 30fps?

Thanks for clarifying the confusion.

Putting a 60 FPS video on a 30 FPS timeline would actually slow down the original video. You’d have to SPEED up your video to get it to play correctly on a 30 FPS timeline. To do this we have to throw out every other frame totally negating the fact that you shot in 60 FPS making it totally pointless.

Your video is a collection of frames and your timeline is how quickly those frames are played back. If you have a video that is 600 frames then on a 30 FPS timeline it will take 20 seconds to play that video. If you shot in 60 FPS then actually that video took you only 10 seconds to record so playing it back on the 30 FPS time line it will appear too slow. To get it to appear correctly we have to make it 300 frames to play back in 10 seconds. We do this by getting rid of every other frame.

Shooting in 60 FPS did absolutely nothing for you except take more time to download and make your computer work harder to render the video.

Now if you retime any part of your video THEN you’ll be glad you have those extra frames but unless you retime the video shooting in 60 FPS is pointless.

 

[Hummingbird.UAV]

I record everything at 60fps. I normally edit at 30fps in Premiere Pro which then drops every second frame. However if I want to smooth out a bit of video by reducing the speed by 50% the extra frames are there to make it look real nice. The other thing to note is there is very little file size difference between 30 & 60 fps so I always go for 60fps.
(60fps can make bad flying look good at 30fps playback)

 

[Hiflyer808]

I record everything at 60fps. I normally edit at 30fps in Premiere Pro which then drops every second frame. However if I want to smooth out a bit of video by reducing the speed by 50% the extra frames are there to make it look real nice. The other thing to note is there is very little file size difference between 30 & 60 fps so I always go for 60fps.
(60fps can make bad flying look good at 30fps playback)

Yes if i edited at 30fps I would often choose 60fps filming. So now that i know it has 48fps I'll be using that a lot. But mostly, 24fps.

 

[boblui]

I don't have the drone but I will definitely check whether the picture quality is sacrificed in any ways when shooting 60 fps. This has been seen in M2P :

1080p 60 fps :

1080p 30 fps :

When shooting 60 fps, the Hasselblad camera, for some reasons, under-samples the image , does interpolation followed by sharpening. If the image contains fine lines like that in the video above, annoying flickering of the lines will show up.

 

[Meta4]

Yet so many people use it thinking they are getting higher quality..

When people don't understand something, they often assume a bigger number must be better.

 

[unionglzr]

Hi, ordered the Mavic Air 2 and I am still relative new to videography.

What speaks against recording every video at 60fps vs 30fps with a drone? I am aware that the file size will increase and I will require more light but since I live in Florida and shoot most of my videos in sunlight I am not too concerned about it.

Since I edit videos on a 30fps timeline, I could slow down my footage by 50% but at the same time could playback my footage in real time or not as If I would have recorded it in 30fps?

Thanks for clarifying the confusion.

ya we here in Massachusetts have sun to record in also

 

[Hegemone]

You hadn’t quite fully formed the idea but you were on the right track. It’s not how frame rate effects exposure directly but how it affects shutter speed which affects exposure. A slower frame rate allows you to use a slower shutter since your shutter can never be faster than your frame rate.

If you have 100 ISO 1/30 shutter and 30FPS and your video is properly exposed then switching to 60 FPS would force you to use a shutter of 1/60 making your video under exposed. Especially in low light conditions using a lower frame rate will allow you to use a slower shutter and prevents the necessity for a higher ISO.

I’ve heard people say that you should shoot in the frame rate you intend to output in but I’ve never gotten an explanation for the technical difference between shooting in 30fps and shooting in 60fps and throwing out every other frame. Unless somebody can articulate what that difference is it seems those two are the same thing. However if you wanted to output your clip at 30 FPS and shoot in 60FPS you’d have to account for that when choosing tour frame rate. in that case you’d still need a shutter speed of 1/60 to get 180 degrees of motion blur. Having those extra frames just means you have more latitude in post to do some retiming if needed.

Well and if you want to shoot with with a proper 180-degree shutter angle you may not have enough light if shooting 60 fps. (I misread your post and you mentioned that.) But again exposure is only part o the consideration. All this would be magnified on a higher-end camera that can shoot much higher frame rates.

If we were discussing faster cameras like a red shooting 300 fps the increased amount of light becomes a more significant consideration for the simple fact that an individual frame is only available for data collection for 1/10 of the time as a frame at 30 fps which would require an exposure compensation of very roughly 3 stops limiting options at lower light levels. It could also handle processing larger amounts of data more efficiently the little drone processors. But then most folks shooting high speed are mostly trying to slow the motion or even stop the motion as the intended outcome so issues of shutter angle and exposure are less of an issue.

But for most consumer drones things like dropped frames and artifacts are a bigger worry when shooting the higher frame rates. Add to the complexity of all of this and mention that its an electronic shutter that simply pops the sensor on and off and frame rate is a process in a chip and a variable in a file wrapper. The conversation gets even more complex and convoluted.

But again it's just my take on things and how I approach it all. I am not out their filming high action car races so the higher frame rates just hold no purpose for me. Shoot for the intended use.

 

[Hegemone]

Now if you retime any part of your video THEN you’ll be glad you have those extra frames but unless you retime the video shooting in 60 FPS is pointless.

The frame blending modes in Premier (and most other software as well) has come a long way as processing power and AI has been refined. Even slowing 30 fps by 50% for something like a speed ramp and using optical flow yields excellent results. But using any of the blending modes is going to be fine for most people who are not pixel peeping. But yeah I agree if your video hinges on timing effects the extra information can be valuable if your equipment can capture and store it cleanly.

I am stuck in my old ways and aesthetic, higher frame rates feel artificial to me. I cant always put my finger on why but they do. For a long time, I couldn't even deal with HDR processing as the added dynamic range just felt too "extra." I am coming around though as HDR and highly tweaked LUTs become the norm rather than shooting/processing for color realism. Hit me in the head enough times and I start to see things differently.

 

[allenface]

It looks as though there are plenty of opinions. Not sure any are wrong but if I may...I’ve been shooting TV shows for years. On scripted narratives, we always shoot 24fps to emulate film. When I shoot network news, its always 60fps at either 1080 or 720. Depends on the network. TV is a 60f platform no matter what you shoot in. For projects we produce, I always shoot 30p. Only 6frames away from 24 so you get a nice filmmatic look but keep the TV math divisible. But for my drone stuff (still unlicensed at this point) I shoot 60 because when you shoot 60, you can do most anything you want. SloMo looks great. No so much in 30 and definitely not good at 24. Left alone, 60 looks a bit “too live” looking for TV production but for drone work, lots more options for post when shooting in 60. Bottom line, IMO, I’d stay 60 in drone world.

 

[Drbobk]

While not directly related to drone frame rate, here's an excellent video about why the movie industry uses 24fps.

 

[mtb.arizona]

I am not confusing them at all. Frame rate also determines how long the sensor is available to collect light/data for a given frame and how much data can be collected and how much time the equipment has to handle that data. Not just exposure. All settings the same, 60 fps collects less light per frame.

Again I believe it is best to shoot for your intended use and desired effect. But we all have our own understandings and preferences. At the end of the day most people won't ever notice the differences or will be doing something else that would undermine any advantages or disadvantages. So shoot how you like and what gets you the footage that you enjoy.

all settings the same, no, the framerate has zero effect on the image.

two videos, one at 30fps and one at 60fps...
1/120th second shutter
100 iso
f/2.8
ev+/-0

the exact same amount of light is going to hit the sensor, for the exact same amount of time. one setting will simply create 30 exposures while theother creates 60 in the same second.

This isn't a matter of individual understanding or preference. It's science/fact/reality.

what you choose to actually shoot at, that's preference.

i shoot primarily high action stuff (mountain biking) and may have used 60 (or higher) fps once or twice. i just dont find myself wanting or needing the extra frames often enough to justify the overhead. and premiere's ability to fill in the blank did work quite nicely the one time I wished for higher fps (during one of my crashes.)

Also tried 24 and that just didnt lookright to my eye for the activity at hand. so 30fps it is all the time.

 

[Hegemone]

all settings the same, no, the framerate has zero effect on the image.

two videos, one at 30fps and one at 60fps...
1/120th second shutter
100 iso
f/2.8
ev+/-0

the exact same amount of light is going to hit the sensor, for the exact same amount of time. one setting will simply create 30 exposures while the other creates 60 in the same second.

This isn't a matter of individual understanding or preference. It's science/fact/reality.

Thanks, we covered how wrong I am and I agreed that when the shutter speed is faster then frame rate the point is moot.

I get what you all are saying. My intention in the original post was talking about the time the sensor is available for collecting data. I made a mistake taking it farther than that because it triggered so many people and the record has been set straight. If you are trying to maintain certain shutter angles and shooting in low light, get your aperture in a certain range, shoot at a certain iso then frame rate absolutely has an ability impact your exposure settings. Remove shutter, aperture, iso, ev, and all that and it is plain fact that at 60 fps the sensor is available for half the time the sensor is available at 30fps and collects less light. It is a fact that higher frame rates require more light, how you compensate for that, or even if you do is all part of this lovely conversation as frame rate considerations are more then just an issue of exposure.

I get it. You win on that point that a shutter speed faster then frame rate negates considerations of light hitting the sensor. It does not negate consideration of bit rate usage, shutter angle in various situations, processing bottlenecks, and etc.. Shoot for the intended use and the results will be better, Set it and forget it is best only for Showtime Rotisserie (before anyone argues, that's only my opinion).

 

[Hegemone]

While not directly related to drone frame rate, here's an excellent video about why the movie industry uses 24fps.

It's very appropriate because so many times it's forgotten that many of the concepts we argue are from the days of film traveling along with the focal plain and mechanical shutters. A spinning mechanical shutter is not simply open or closed and there are fractions of time when one portion of the frame is exposed to light while another part isn't. But then it didn't matter because the chemical reaction in the film was not quick enough to have it make much of a difference. Lots of fun things to discuss when you start talking mechanical shutters, hybrid shutters, and electronics (creating unimaginable shutter speeds when compared to mechanical) on highly sensitive sensors, data streams, and how all that can impact a lot of different fine details. A whole giant realm of pixel peeping fantasies.

 

[Dmascot]

This thread has taught me a lot. Thanks

 

[johnmoxl]

Hi, ordered the Mavic Air 2 and I am still relative new to videography.

What speaks against recording every video at 60fps vs 30fps with a drone? I am aware that the file size will increase and I will require more light but since I live in Florida and shoot most of my videos in sunlight I am not too concerned about it.

Since I edit videos on a 30fps timeline, I could slow down my footage by 50% but at the same time could playback my footage in real time or not as If I would have recorded it in 30fps?

Thanks for clarifying the confusion.

Otheres here have beaten the exposure issue to death so I won't address that. As a 30 years of experience video producer here is my 2 cents. 60 fps requires a microXD card with a data rate rated at least a U2 or V3 rating due to the higher data rates generated, to avoid dropping frames, so make sure you are using one of those in your drone. You said you have a fast computer so I assume it can keep up when editing 4K 60 fps- if not proxy files are an option in editing. Some people prefer the crisper 60 fps images due to the higher shutter speed entailed in a higher frame rate, some don't like that look, personal preference. Most importantly you get smoother motion results if you transcode to a slower Frame rate when importing in post (e.g. shooting at 60 fps and editing at 30fps) vs. slowing footage shot at 30 fps to a slower rate by using your editing software to interpolate the additional frames. Assuming technical requirements have been met (microSD card data rate and editing system limitations/storage capacity are not an issue in your case), the only reason I can think of not to shoot at 60 fps is if you don't like the look of the higher fps when played back at the same rate in post - there will be less blurring per frame. Personally I like the higher frame rate because smooth motion is usually the most difficult result to achieve when I fly my Mavic 2 Zoom(even after the gimbal and zoom tweaks). Even if you choose to speed up your footage in post the results will look fine shooting at 60 fps.

 

[TerryToast]

4K@60FPS is stored at 120Mbps
= 2Mbps per frame

4K@30FPS is stored at 100Mbps
= 3.3Mbps per frame

By my maths (above), the 30FPS footage is less compressed than 60FPS and thus the 30FPS video is higher quality.

 

[Geekinions]

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference. Keep in mind that 60fps reduces and amount of data for every available frame in comparison to 30fps. Now I don't have my MA2 in hand yet, so I can't give exact numbers, but I'm sure someone else here could look at bitrates for 4K 30 and 4K 60 and give you an idea about how much more data per frame is available if you filmed at 30 fps. More data means less artifacting, among other benefits that I won't get into here.

One advantage of 60 fps is the smoothness of the video. Its more like viewing it with your own eyes for motion. 30fps is what most of us are used to, but you start seeing jerkiness when moving faster. It gets even worse the lower you go. 24 or 25 fps is barely tolerable to me. So if you film at a lower framerate, slow down your movements to keep it looking smooth. If you film at a faster framerate, you can have faster motion and your video keeps looking smooth. (Since the lens is locked at f2.8 you may need ND filters depending on how bright it is to keep the picture smooth with a bit of motion blur.) You can also take your 60fps footage and slow it down and still have smooth video. With 30fps, you lose that ability. (Think about a waterfall pedestal move at 1/2 speed vs full speed.)

TLDR version: 60fps gives more flexibility, but at the cost of a little bit of quality. That video quality difference should be marginal, or not noticeable, to the average Joe who just wants to post epic looking shots on YouTube.

At the end of the day, it's all subjective. What works for one person doesn't work for someone else. It's a creative process and you should know the basics of filming and then make the choices that work for you. People can be loud on the Internet that their opinions are right and everybody else is wrong sometimes, but remember that others' advice is just that: advice.

 

[brett8883]

4K@60FPS is stored at 120Mbps
= 2Mbps per frame

4K@30FPS is stored at 100Mbps
= 3.3Mbps per frame

By my maths (above), the 30FPS footage is less compressed than 60FPS and thus the 30FPS video is higher quality.

How are you coming up with 4k 30fps is 100Mbps? All I see in the specs is that it’s max 120 Mbps.

 

[dronecrasher]

Okay, i agree with your more general point. Unless you want slow motion, 60fps is needlessly taxing your drone, using up more sd card space, depriving you of hdr and active track, etc. Yet so many people use it thinking they are getting higher quality..

Yes but at the same time it gives your more flexibility if you decide to slow down your footage at a later stage