Boundary rule breach re drone over whales/dolphins calves

[spudster]

You can not tell from a photo how close it was. It could be a zoomed in shot or a cropped photo. The only way to know for sure is having GPS location of the drone and the whales at that point in time.

 

[Tiger64]

Many jurisdictions use the same rules they drew up in the late 1970s/early 1980s regarding planes and whales and just classify drones as aircraft.
It's ridiculous to suggest that a little electric drone, has a similar effect on a whale as a helicopter or Cessna.
Your drone has a similar impact to that of a seagull and the whale is about as likely to even notice it.

Why 'Scientific' Permits Make a Mockery of the Drone Whale Laws in Australia - Andy Hutchinson

Drones are not harmful to whales or dolphins, unless ingested, so why all the ******** laws about flying near them?

andyhutchinson.com.au

But it is well known that by paying a fee to appropriate departments, to get a permit, reduces any potential to cause harm. ?

 

[Zbip57]

Beautifully photographed and I am confident it did not disturb the animal at all.

Just to be absolutely clear, that's not my video, eh.

But yes, it is beautifully photographed and the whales do not appear to be stressed in any way. They're either totally oblivious of the drone's presence, or totally don't care.

Some of the shots do appear to be from directly overhead, so regulations-wise are probably illegal.

 

[DronePhotosNZ]

Many jurisdictions use the same rules they drew up in the late 1970s/early 1980s regarding planes and whales and just classify drones as aircraft.
It's ridiculous to suggest that a little electric drone, has a similar effect on a whale as a helicopter or Cessna.
Your drone has a similar impact to that of a seagull and the whale is about as likely to even notice it.

Why 'Scientific' Permits Make a Mockery of the Drone Whale Laws in Australia - Andy Hutchinson

Drones are not harmful to whales or dolphins, unless ingested, so why all the ******** laws about flying near them?

andyhutchinson.com.au

Agree with post above, here in NZ the rules re drones and wildlife aren't made by our aviation regulators ( Civil Aviation Authority - CAA ), they are rules imposed by our wildlife regulators ( Department of Conservation - DOC )

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Do they have any proof whatsoever that overhead drones affect sea mammals?

Actually yes.
Common dolphins change behavior when drones are within 10m.
I think it was 15m to 30m away or more, no change in behaviour.
Behaviour changes included surface tail slapping.

Behaviour reactions of bottlenose dolphins (Tursiops truncatus) to multirotor Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) - Scientific Reports

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) represent a novel and cost effective research tool to investigate cetacean behaviour, as conventional aircraft are expensive, limited in the altitude they can fly at and potentially disturb sensitive wildlife. In addition, the aerial observation from the UAVs...

www.nature.com

Firm tail slapping is a warning signal in 'Dolphin' apparently.

Who's to say if other species have been researched the same, apart from the research found in the link in post #3

Noise Levels of Multi-Rotor Unmanned Aerial Vehicles with Implications for Potential Underwater Impacts on Marine Mammals

I'll be honest, with out coastline and seals / dolphins along the coast (this is where the OPs whale story was shot, but they are still very rare to sight here), I've been tempted to fly nearer to them.
As such, I've googled in the past regs and studies of this and found a lot of info online from various groups (you need to consider the study is funded by, and for any possible underlying purpose).
A search like > drone rules whale mammal impact <

There was a post this forum or on the SparkPilots forum that showed a pilot (I think it was in Tasmania, Australia) up so close to seals on a little low salmon farm dock structure, they were so inquisitive, even when he was within an estimated 10m.
Too close for me, but just an example of how some marine mammals may not react negatively.

I decided best to be cautious and try and stay the 300m, which of course is just too far for any decent footage.
Whether the rule is fair or realistic, it's still a rule from the dept that deals with marine wildlife, just like yours is enforced by NOAA Fisheries.
These rules will likely never be changed, even if wrong, such depts would feel no need to change to some new proven safe distance.

 

[Grippy]

We were down there yesterday to look at the whales, there were a crowd of punters down there.
There were signs stuck on the fences everywhere about the drone rules, I said to the Mrs about how we aren't allowed over 100m or so and the rules state 300m, however there were still some people flying their drones out over the whales.
I didn't bother getting mine out of the car, I opted for my trusty K3 and Bigma.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

If they are swimming up and down the coast, the boardwalk anywhere between Seacliff and Hallett Cove Beach would give excellent elevated viewing points.
Access from Seacliff, Marino Rocks, Hallett Cove Estate, or HC Beach.

I often fly down there from numerous points outside the cons park, but maybe I'll find out where they are and see if the missus would like to head down there later today.

Sans drone, some things are best seen with the eye and remembered with the built in memory card we all have.

 

[Cirdan]

It was discussed on the local ABC radio and various people in the know, discussed the rules and that NPWS rangers had approached a number of drone operators and warned them. Don't know if any were charged. NPWS and a marine biologist accepted that the close presence of the drones probably would not change anything with the whales however they weren't about to change the regs just for these specific whales.

 

[Triple D]

I find it interesting that there are many places that there are restrictions so you can not fly a drone because it disturbs wildlife and the environment, but you can pay $300 for a tour of the same area from a much larger and noisier helicopter.

 

[br14nh]

My guess is that the overhead distance may not be about drones annoying the whales but would take into account when whales breach... they can come quite a way into the air, and it may be that the zone has been designed as a risk management measure to account for "worst case" scenario. However, that's just my opinion, I have no information to support it.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

My guess is that the overhead distance

There is no overhead distance though.
We drone users are mainly concerned with the lateral distance from whales and dolphins, seals etc.

The NSW minimum distance is 100m, that is a lateral distance, similar to the 30m people rule, but 100m.
You are also required to keep 100m minimum altitude, as well as the 100m lateral.

300m rest of Oz waters is plain and simple . . . don't bother trying to film them on purpose, unless you have an incredible zoom on a better camera platform (pro drone).
You might be lucky enough to catch a glimpse of one accidentally overflying or closer, but then you're supposed to move away outside the 300m (or 100m in NSW) then.

From the NSW page concerned . . .

If you're lucky enough to be up in a plane or helicopter, or watching the seas from a drone and you spot a whale, then you must not encroach closer than a horizontal radius of:

• 100m for unmanned aircraft (e.g. drones)
• 300m for aircraft (other than a helicopter, gyrocopter or unmanned aircraft)
• 500m for a helicopter or gyrocopter.

Aircraft are not permitted to:

• approach a marine mammal head-on for the purpose of observation
• land on water for the purpose of observing a marine mammal.

Page not found | NSW National Parks

Page not found. The page you're looking for may have been renamed or moved.

www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au

 

[Meta4]

My guess is that the overhead distance may not be about drones annoying the whales but would take into account when whales breach... they can come quite a way into the air, and it may be that the zone has been designed as a risk management measure to account for "worst case" scenario.

No ... whales don't jump that high.
NSW has the most liberal height/distance restrictions of any Australian state.

Humpback whales are the most active breaching whales, but they aren't ever going to be anything like 100 metres out of the water.
A big humpback is about 15 metres long and when breaching will be less 15 metres out of the water.

Most other states have the same regulation for drones as other aircraft.
Vertical distance limits have nothing to do with whales breaching (and nothing to do with the effect drones might have on whales).

 

[Chip]

I find it interesting that there are many places that there are restrictions so you can not fly a drone because it disturbs wildlife and the environment, but you can pay $300 for a tour of the same area from a much larger and noisier helicopter.

Right. The whales do not seem to care if you fly a drone close enough to collect their snot so long as it is an approved person at the controls.

 

[jaswalt]

Maybe drones don't disturb the animals. But until there is evidence to prove they do not, doesn't it make sense to err on the side of peace and safety for the animal? Proof that someone does something is absolutely no proof that it is benign.

 

[jaswalt]

These distance rules are another example of drone regulations that are over the top. No doubt a left-over regulation from the days of those noisy model aircraft engines. A whale or dolphin wouldn't even notice a Mavic at 30m. 100 or 300m distance - that's just crazy! IMO

How do we know it wouldn't notice a mavic at 30m? Can you point to the study?

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

How do we know it wouldn't notice a mavic at 30m? Can you point to the study?

Did you read the link in post 3 ?
In that persons website, there is a link to a comprehensive study on this with drone use and whales.

I have found research showing dolphins are affected if flying closer than 10m, and that is one species, others are not as sensitive.
They all live around ships and motor boats, dolphins in particular, so used to noise IN the water, coming up very close even riding bow waves.

The study above shows underwater the sound of a drone is lost.

What happens with breaching ?
This is common in shallow waters and of course is when someone would want to / be able to film such creatures.
That doesn't seem to be mentioned in many studies, but could be is some articles.

 

[jaswalt]

Uh...yeah, missed that. Sorry! I'll admit that once it started getting into a lot of the numbers I sort zoned out. Do you recall if the sound penetrated at all? ...even if only inches?

As you noted, it is worth examining other behaviors. A couple that interest me could be difficult to observe, however are most decidedly more important than tail slapping or the like. Those behaviors of interest to me, probably more so to the animal in question, is mating, feeding, and, for birds at least, nesting behavior. There have been instances of animals that showed little or no visible reactions to certain stimuli but were varying degrees in these areas. I think it's worth looking into before laws are drastically altered.

 

[Meta4]

Do you recall if the sound penetrated at all? ...even if only inches?

No .. the sound doesn't penetrate water.

A couple that interest me could be difficult to observe

There has been lots of research done and 2 minutes on Google will bring up quite a lot if you are interested.

I think it's worth looking into before laws are drastically altered.

Maybe it would be a good idea to look into what's already been established before making your mind up.