Further Coordination Denied with no details

[JohnTheHobbit]

Good Morning Fellow Operators!

I have done some research into this issue and have not found a lot of information which would indicate that the issue is a "Me" issue so I wanted to ask here for some guidance. I am part 107 certified.

The situation is that I have an event I am covering at the Fort Snelling National Cemetery on Memorial Day and I plan to use my drone to take video and picture of the event as marketing material for the non-profit I am working for. I am doing a test flight in April to make sure I can get the airspace (the cemetery is directly adjacent to the MSP airport) authorization, and that I can get the shots I need and overall do a dry run to ensure I account for any unexpected situations so I can make the most of my time during the real event.

So I have hit my first snag, I have put in two separate LAANC requests, and both require further coordination as the ceiling is 0ft. Given the proximity to the airport, I knew that this would be the case which is why I am working on this so far ahead of time. In both cases, my request was denied and very little information was given.

The first request was for 150ft directly above the cemetery and maybe 100 feet across the street so I can capture the rally point where the non-profit folks will assemble. That was denied, and the given reason was one that felt very "Canned" as in, it said it MAY have been denied because of a list of different reasons including altitude, date, duration, or time. This is rather unhelpful as I don't know what grounds specifically were the factor for the denial. So I submitted again for an altitude of 100 ft. I also tightened up the boundary to be only the cemetery area. Again, denied with a vague list of reasons.

So my question is, what can I do to get more information about the denial or what criteria would make my request more successful? Since there is no information about the denial I can't make adjustments without basically guessing then I have to try and apply that guess work on the actual event day and hope that it is approved. Any ideas from you veterans on how I could proceed?

Thanks for any information you can provide!

 

[Vic Moss]

One issue with the current LAANC system is that ATC does not have an option to give a reason for the denial. We're working with Aloft and the FAA to see if this is something that can be addressed in the next generation of LAANC, which is being developed at this moment. ATC would like that option.

Your best bet is to use Drone Zone and apply for an Airspace Authorization. Make sure you have a good safety plan. Add that you'll be open to any further safety mitigations requested by MSP. MSP is usually pretty good at working with UAS Pilots.

 

[JohnTheHobbit]

One issue with the current LAANC system is that ATC does not have an option to give a reason for the denial. We're working with Aloft and the FAA to see if this is something that can be addressed in the next generation of LAANC, which is being developed at this moment. ATC would like that option.

Your best bet is to use Drone Zone and apply for an Airspace Authorization. Make sure you have a good safety plan. Add that you'll be open to any further safety mitigations requested by MSP. MSP is usually pretty good at working with UAS Pilots.

Thank you for quick response, I very much appreciate that.

I would really like that as well as you can tell, it is frustrating to receive a denial and have no idea how to proceed.

What would you recommend I use for safety plan? This part has always been somewhat overlooked for much of my flights mostly because my safety preparations are following my checklist, keeping an eye on the operational area to react or identify flight risks, and all that stuff that is basically contained within the 'Be a responsible remote operator" category.

Should I list all those basic precautions or is there something else they are looking for that I should ensure I include?

 

[Cafguy]

Welcome to the Forum! Army vet here. Looking at the map of your area My guess would be you got Denied because you are Smack dab in the middle of the Saint-Paul airport area -Practically.
Maybe something tethered ( you will still need permission) or- rent a scissor lift.
Also as a vet I am assuming you have contacted the cemetery officials? While it is legal to film at most national cemeteries (even with Drones) - The cemetery must be notified of your actions and your reason for filming. or they will call the authorities- It shouldn't be any problem for you to get permission I never had a problem at ours.

 

[GFields]

Greetings from Birmingham Alabama USA, welcome to the forum! We look forward to hearing from you!
I agree with Vic, you need to go to Drone Zone and apply for an Airspace Authorization.

 

[Vic Moss]

Thank you for quick response, I very much appreciate that.

I would really like that as well as you can tell, it is frustrating to receive a denial and have no idea how to proceed.

What would you recommend I use for safety plan? This part has always been somewhat overlooked for much of my flights mostly because my safety preparations are following my checklist, keeping an eye on the operational area to react or identify flight risks, and all that stuff that is basically contained within the 'Be a responsible remote operator" category.

Should I list all those basic precautions or is there something else they are looking for that I should ensure I include?

More information supplied to ATC is always better. Include things like GEO fencing, using a VO, monitoring ATC frequency, and contacting ATC before and after flight. Mention you'll use a 3SM strobe if they want. But when I work with KDEN on these types of flights, they don't want a strobe. Because if a pilot reports a drone they have to file a report. Even if it's a pre-approved drone. But you can ask them.

It's also not out of the question to call the tower and ask for the ATC Manager. Tell them what you're going to be doing, and ask them what safety mitigations they'd like to see on COA application. You can call them for that, just not to get permissions.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

Good Morning Fellow Operators!

I have done some research into this issue and have not found a lot of information which would indicate that the issue is a "Me" issue so I wanted to ask here for some guidance. I am part 107 certified.

The situation is that I have an event I am covering at the Fort Snelling National Cemetery on Memorial Day and I plan to use my drone to take video and picture of the event as marketing material for the non-profit I am working for. I am doing a test flight in April to make sure I can get the airspace (the cemetery is directly adjacent to the MSP airport) authorization, and that I can get the shots I need and overall do a dry run to ensure I account for any unexpected situations so I can make the most of my time during the real event.

So I have hit my first snag, I have put in two separate LAANC requests, and both require further coordination as the ceiling is 0ft. Given the proximity to the airport, I knew that this would be the case which is why I am working on this so far ahead of time. In both cases, my request was denied and very little information was given.

The first request was for 150ft directly above the cemetery and maybe 100 feet across the street so I can capture the rally point where the non-profit folks will assemble. That was denied, and the given reason was one that felt very "Canned" as in, it said it MAY have been denied because of a list of different reasons including altitude, date, duration, or time. This is rather unhelpful as I don't know what grounds specifically were the factor for the denial. So I submitted again for an altitude of 100 ft. I also tightened up the boundary to be only the cemetery area. Again, denied with a vague list of reasons.

So my question is, what can I do to get more information about the denial or what criteria would make my request more successful? Since there is no information about the denial I can't make adjustments without basically guessing then I have to try and apply that guess work on the actual event day and hope that it is approved. Any ideas from you veterans on how I could proceed?

Thanks for any information you can provide!

What I'm about to say is probably not a legal work around, but it's a work around. Go to your nearest reseller of Autel drones. Autel doesn't have NFZ restrictions. Use it for the job, then return it to the store. You could also do this via an internet purchase, just make sure there is a no reasons asked return policy.

Besides that, could you go to the Flight Control Center of that specific airport and get direct permission from them? Could you call the Flight control center and get permission that way? I though that's the way it used to be done. Before LAANC, drone pilots needed permission, directly from the control tower or control center responsible for individual airports. Well, that's what I thought anyway.

 

[GFields]

probably not a legal work around

Correct, this is not a LEGAL work around and poor advice

 

[Cafguy]

Use it for the job, then return it to the store.

Would be hard to return Confiscated Government evidence

 

[StevenBrodsky]

Would be hard to return Confiscated Government evidence

Anyway here is a quote I just found:

"...Back then (before 2017 when LAANC was Established), the only alternative was to personally call up the nearby airport or ATC facility and request for authorization. Approval was typically only granted verbally. This was not very “systematic,” and airports ended up fielding a lot of requests from nearby drone pilots. This proved to be added work for airport and ATC personnel who very likely have more important things to attend to. It is no longer allowed to call ATC to get approval...."

 

[Cafguy]

You can call BUT they will just direct you to go to DroneZone.

 

[mavic3usa]

Unfortunately you will still find people who insist you have to call the tower to get authorization to fly. The main purpose of giving recreational pilots access to LAANC is so they could get near instant authorizations for flying in controlled airspace *without* having to call.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

Correct, this is not a LEGAL work around and poor advice

"I always take two with me. One is the Autel Evo Lite + in case I run into a GEO fencing issue. I have been using the Lite as my go-to drone but I really like the Air 3. Nonetheless, it's all good."

Do you know this is a quote from a post you made. The OP is having a Geofencing issue. It's funny you said this in a post. No offense, I guess you talking about some other kind of geofencing issue. Nothing like the OP's situation.

 

[GFields]

"I always take two with me. One is the Autel Evo Lite + in case I run into a GEO fencing issue. I have been using the Lite as my go-to drone but I really like the Air 3. Nonetheless, it's all good."

Do you know this is a quote from a post you made. The OP is having a Geofencing issue. It's funny you said this in a post. No offense, I guess you talking about some other kind of geofencing issue. Nothing like the OP's situation.

Yes, I know this quote and you have taken it out of context. Nowhere did I ever say I didn't do my due diligence as far as airspace requirements and approvals!

 

[Cafguy]

The OP is trying to get permission to fly the drone in an area less than 2000 Yards from Runway 31l of Minneapolis ST. Paul international airport I believe that has a lot to do with the denial.

 

[GFields]

There have been jobs that I have had to just turn down due to not being able to get the appropriate approvals. Sadly, this may be the case here. Best wishes to the OP. Let us know how it works out.

 

[mavic3usa]

The OP is trying to get permission to fly the drone in an area less than 2000 Yards from Runway 31l of Minneapolis ST. Paul international airport I believe that has a lot to do with the denial.

Normally I would agree with you but I used to live in Minneapolis (the airport is actually in Bloomington) and I've been to Ft. Snelling many times over the decade I live there. It's not that bad, there's plenty of room all around there for 50 feet drone activity as long as you're not in the path. I understand precautions have to be taken and there are FAA standards, etc but that place is so wide open and vast, you can see a plane coming a couple miles away or further. People who visit the national cemetery have no issues with excessive noise. I guess it's one of those place where you have to go there to see for yourself.

 

[Cafguy]

Normally I would agree with you but I used to live in Minneapolis (the airport is actually in Bloomington) and I've been to Ft. Snelling many times over the decade I live there. It's not that bad, there's plenty of room all around there for 50 feet drone activity as long as you're not in the path. I understand precautions have to be taken and there are FAA standards, etc but that place is so wide open and vast, you can see a plane coming a couple miles away or further. People who visit the national cemetery have no issues with excessive noise. I guess it's one of those place where you have to go there to see for yourself.

I see your point completely Trust me BUT the FAA Doesn't

 

[StevenBrodsky]

Good Morning Fellow Operators!

I have done some research into this issue and have not found a lot of information which would indicate that the issue is a "Me" issue so I wanted to ask here for some guidance. I am part 107 certified.

The situation is that I have an event I am covering at the Fort Snelling National Cemetery on Memorial Day and I plan to use my drone to take video and picture of the event as marketing material for the non-profit I am working for. I am doing a test flight in April to make sure I can get the airspace (the cemetery is directly adjacent to the MSP airport) authorization, and that I can get the shots I need and overall do a dry run to ensure I account for any unexpected situations so I can make the most of my time during the real event.

So I have hit my first snag, I have put in two separate LAANC requests, and both require further coordination as the ceiling is 0ft. Given the proximity to the airport, I knew that this would be the case which is why I am working on this so far ahead of time. In both cases, my request was denied and very little information was given.

The first request was for 150ft directly above the cemetery and maybe 100 feet across the street so I can capture the rally point where the non-profit folks will assemble. That was denied, and the given reason was one that felt very "Canned" as in, it said it MAY have been denied because of a list of different reasons including altitude, date, duration, or time. This is rather unhelpful as I don't know what grounds specifically were the factor for the denial. So I submitted again for an altitude of 100 ft. I also tightened up the boundary to be only the cemetery area. Again, denied with a vague list of reasons.

So my question is, what can I do to get more information about the denial or what criteria would make my request more successful? Since there is no information about the denial I can't make adjustments without basically guessing then I have to try and apply that guess work on the actual event day and hope that it is approved. Any ideas from you veterans on how I could proceed?

Thanks for any information you can provide!

You are just going to have to explain to the client that it's not legal to use a drone so close to the airport. You will have to use traditional photography and video to get the job done.

 

[BigAl07]

What I'm about to say is probably not a legal work around, but it's a work around. Go to your nearest reseller of Autel drones. Autel doesn't have NFZ restrictions. Use it for the job, then return it to the store. You could also do this via an internet purchase, just make sure there is a no reasons asked return policy.

Besides that, could you go to the Flight Control Center of that specific airport and get direct permission from them? Could you call the Flight control center and get permission that way? I though that's the way it used to be done. Before LAANC, drone pilots needed permission, directly from the control tower or control center responsible for individual airports. Well, that's what I thought anyway.

You're new to the forum so I'll give you a pinch of consideration in my reply but . . .

Your advice is not only illegal it's DANGEROUS and absolutely HORRIBLE! Here's why:

1) The OP is asking about Restricted/Controlled Airspace Authorizations. These restrictions apply to EVERY SINGLE UAS regardless of the manufacturer. Suggesting the OP go get a drone that does not recognize Airspace Restrictions is horribly irresponsible and not something we are going to take casually on this forum and in our INDUSTRY!

2) While sometimes I can see how someone asking about "how to fly due to restrictions" could be related to DJI's GEOFENCING the OP has very CLEARLY stated he is seeking FAA Approvals and even mentioned his request/denial through the LAANC system. The idea that you "might" misunderstand this to be a DJI GeoFence is not really going to "Fly" in this instance.

3) Suggesting a fellow UAS Operator initiate an ILLEGAL and potentially dangerous flight literally on the edge of a major airport approach departure route in such a scenario is grossly negligent. Airplanes on that area will be at their MOST VULNERABLE configuration and an emergency evasive maneuvers due to UAS conflict could put the aircraft, every soul on board, and potentially people on the ground (even the UAS operator etc) in dire danger.

In closing, this is NOT a DJI GeoFencing issue. It's an FAA Airspace issue and not something that should be taken lightly and absolutely not something that should be 100% ignored which is exactly what your advice was suggesting.