Warnings About Regional and Burning Man Events

[Kywon McCain]

Update: I have no idea what this guy is talking about anymore. If it's private property, it would probably be illegal to seize a drone. Otherwise, would a home owner be able to seize a drone flying over his property?

 

[Torque]

When will the FAA issue a TFR. It's not on the site yet. There are currently no TFRs in Nevada at all.

Burning Man Black Rock is scheduled for 8/28 to 9/4, so the TFR wouldn't be issued until July?

Drones

In response to the growing popularity of remote controlled aircraft, helicopters and multi-copters (aka UAV or drones), Burning Man has established regulations under the Black Rock City Safety Team, and updated its guidelines for registering, and the terms and conditions...

burningman.org

 

[Torque]

15. If a pilot is acting in an unsafe manner either law enforcement or the Black Rock Rangers have the authority to confiscate the controller/transmitter and transfer it to the Safety Officer.
16. If a crashed craft is found it will be transferred to the Safety Officer.
17. Aircraft confiscated for flying unsafely, recklessly or in violation of rules will be held by the Safety Officer.

https://burningman.org/wp-content/uploads/Burning-Mans-2022-Drone-Policy.pdf

 

[Droning on and on...]

15. If a pilot is acting in an unsafe manner either law enforcement or the Black Rock Rangers have the authority to confiscate the controller/transmitter and transfer it to the Safety Officer.
16. If a crashed craft is found it will be transferred to the Safety Officer.
17. Aircraft confiscated for flying unsafely, recklessly or in violation of rules will be held by the Safety Officer.

https://burningman.org/wp-content/uploads/Burning-Mans-2022-Drone-Policy.pdf

Your point?

There's no argument about pilots "acting in an unsafe manner", crashed aircraft, or pilots "flying unsafely, or recklessly". Violating the rules? there's some question about what the legal, enforceable rules are.

What do you, @Torque, think should happen to an attendee that puts his Mini3P in the air, is informed by the guy in the tent next to him that drones are prohibited, immediately lands and puts it away? However one of the jackbooted volunteers saw it, grabs an Officer, and heads over to the offender.

What do you think should happen?

 

[Torque]

Your point?

There's no argument about pilots "acting in an unsafe manner", crashed aircraft, or pilots "flying unsafely, or recklessly". Violating the rules? there's some question about what the legal, enforceable rules are.

What do you, @Torque, think should happen to an attendee that puts his Mini3P in the air, is informed by the guy in the tent next to him that drones are prohibited, immediately lands and puts it away? However one of the jackbooted volunteers saw it, grabs an Officer, and heads over to the offender.

What do you think should happen?

1) I think he should have read the fine print of the contract he entered (purchasing the ticket, reading the website, etc.,, it is VERY clear that drones are prohibited. But he either didn't, or chose to ignore the restrictions. So...
2) Drone should be confiscated and returned to the owner when he leaves. Just as the OP stated. Just as the rules state.
He can't fly it, so he doesn't need it for his stay at the festival. Had he been caught with the drone in the air, I would hope the consequences are a bit more.
But since the drone was not airborne, I would think he would be warned to keep it in his bag. Neither the OP nor the posted regulations state that a grounded drone will be confiscated. So I don't think your assumptive scenario will actually play out.

 

[Cafguy]

This post is starting to be questionable to me as well-- BUT I will give the guy the benefit of me not actually knowing him.
I will say I know and speak with some of the most talented Drone pilots in the industry, Some fly for major Production companies and Some Gov contractors such as Boeing, and I am sure every member of this forum has seen their work in one way or another . From what I know and having a conversation with them about this, I can say the facts are: Just as Torque is listing, The rules for flying your Drone at burning Man are well published and with these private rules and the combination of the F.A.A. Regulations it means- Leave the drone at home. IF you decide to be dumb and get caught and they try to Confiscate your Property: O.K. Sure. They can do it IF: They are an authorized agent for the government . ( Police, fire, F.A.A. Most likely The safety officer at Burning Man). You know the guys with Real Badges. Private Property or not. Any other person doing so is committing theft. As a security guard or agent You may hold on to such property and hand it over to the Authorized agent immediately (you can't hold on to it and turn it in later.) AND, You cannot do that under threat or implication of threat. ( You Cannot physically take away property unless you are law enforcement) Also even if the police Confiscate your drone you will be given a receipt. and the officers info in writing. NOW the persons in charge of giving back your drone ( Property Room Officer I suppose) can place indiscriminate hurdles in front of you when it comes time to get it back, just because he doesn't like what you did. BUT that would be Illegal. Once you are seen Flying your drone at such an event I Know of NO private security person that would try to approach and apprehend you Most security personnel are there to observe and report not conduct themselves as a private police force The WORST part comes after all this and you start receiving you letters from the F.A.A.

 

[Torque]

I don't understand the reactions to this post. It seems to be an emotional topic for some. The rules are essentially the same as if I was caught flying my drone over one of our Seattle stadiums, a large parade, or an open air concert. However in those instances the consequences would most likely be far more expensive than just having my drone held for a few days.

 

[Octavio]

Just returned from AfrikaBurn. I am one of the Airspace Managers, for fixed wing, rotary wing and reluctantly function as the drone police. Just to let folks know, if they plan to attend any of the worldwide or US based Burning Man events there are specific rules, which prohibit any but our one or two permitted, possessing waivers, insurance and proper local licensing from FAA/CAA to film at the events. This year we started very aggressive policing of illegal drone flights. We captured 15 drones this year at AfrikaBurn alone, ranging from a Mavic 3 Pro to an assortment of 2's and minis. We do eventually give them back to the owners, but make it a colossal pain in the a$$ to teach them a lesson. A few argue with us, and I simply point out the nearby law enforcement officer, who lurks close by. Choice: we confiscate it, you eventually get it back, or face the local closed airspace, flight over large events, no commercial local license, no waiver and no insurance criminal violations. These charges will add up to many thousands in fines, many automatic, permanent loss of equipment and possible jail time. Depends on the local laws in that country.

We are in the process of buying the latest flight ID tracking devices, but we seem to be doing quite well with hand-talkies and eyeballs. What goes up must come down. So In next years events, we will be electronically logging and passing to local CAA, violators. It is a safety hazard to the participants and a violation of their right to privacy and a severe hazard to our medivac helicopters and fixed wing traffic. Spread the word, we would prefer not to have this as a primary job, but rather the occasional dufus to deal with.

Now wonder, there are so many of my friends having second thoughts about purchasing a Drone. Sometimes the reaction to some posts is negatively overwhelming. It's like spitting in the air! Just remember that what goes up must come down and maybe right back onto your face as the Chinaman says.

 

[spsphotos]

Let me be clear here.

I support this policy and the effort to enforce it 100%.

I am utterly opposed to you, and those with your attitude doing it.

You display a very hostile, punitive disposition about enforcing rules. You are exactly the kind of person that should never be an LEO, or associated with enforcement. It is this kind of attitude that leads to conflict, and sometimes violence.

I suspect the vast vast majority of people putting up a drone at the Burning Man event in NV really don't know any better, don't know the rules, and are happy to comply. Terrorism Laws? You're serious, aren't you?

Far better would be to simply confiscate the drone, then give it back at the end of the last day, while the violators enjoy the rest of the event. There's no need to heap addition pain and hardship on someone for making an innocent mistake. It an opportunity to educate, not punish.

Yeah,,,,seems totally NOT in line with the whole purpose of Burning Man, which is a hedonistic event.

 

[Torque]

Now wonder, there are so many of my friends having second thoughts about purchasing a Drone.

Good. I find myself discouraging people who want to buy a drone far more than I encourage people to enter the hobby. Too many people feel they have the right to fly anywhere they want, regardless of the safety issues or laws. My right to have fun should never trump another's right to safety.

 

[Ty Pilot]

To me, after reading this entire thread it is becoming obvious that there are some folks who think laws and regulations are for suckers, and that they can do what they want, and break any rule they disagree with - using their own good judgement of course.

However, when these law breakers get caught, they seem to want to hold the ones that caught them; not only to a higher standard, but seem to feel that they (the law breakers), should be the ones determining what the outcome should be - again based on their own good judgement.

I don't know what Burning man is, and don't really care. It seems to me the OP has an affiliation with the event and provided a PSA to any potential drone pilots who were thinking of attending and flying a drone at BM, as to what the potential outcome would be, and gave examples of past occurrences and how they played out. The rules about drones at these events are crystal clear to anyone who cares to see.

 

[mobilehomer]

To me, after reading this entire thread it is becoming obvious that there are some folks who think laws and regulations are for suckers, and that they can do what they want, and break any rule they disagree with - using their own good judgement of course.

However, when these law breakers get caught, they seem to want to hold the ones that caught them; not only to a higher standard, but seem to feel that they (the law breakers), should be the ones determining what the outcome should be - again based on their own good judgement.

I don't know what Burning man is, and don't really care. It seems to me the OP has an affiliation with the event and provided a PSA to any potential drone pilots who were thinking of attending and flying a drone at BM, as to what the potential outcome would be, and gave examples of past occurrences and how they played out. The rules about drones at these events are crystal clear to anyone who cares to see.

The question becomes - is there a TFR for Burning Man? If not, they have ZERO authority over air space!

 

[AlanL]

The question becomes - is there a TFR for Burning Man? If not, they have ZERO authority over air space!

Why would the FAA issue a TFR for an event that isn't scheduled until August 27th?

 

[Torque]

Why would the FAA issue a TFR for an event that isn't scheduled until August 27th?

Exactly. And you can google past TFRs and NOTAMs for Burning Man. SMH

 

[Cafguy]

I never Discourage anyone away from the hobby but I also explain the safety rules and the regulations that must be followed. I tell them of the ADVANTAGES of being a responsible pilot such as being more confident and Having greater knowledge about my drones. I will tell them flying "legal" is actually very simple and around my neck of the woods ( Los Angeles and Valley Area) gets you a good reputation with the authorities. ( After Awhile The police tend to slowly creep by in their car and i.d. you instead of getting out of the car and interrupting you). Then I tell them that you too can make good money flying these drones just study and MY personal way use Pilot Institute and take the 107.
The biggest Problem in my area lately is with people that just strut into Best Buy Get hooked up with the latest drone and head to the park or parking lot After a quick charge, They are up and away flying over heavy traffic, Public areas directly over people Hospitals with Helipads, The list is to painful to mention. Regulation after Regulation Imposed and we legal guys wonder -WHY.?

 

[Ty Pilot]

The question becomes - is there a TFR for Burning Man? If not, they have ZERO authority over air space!

They (the organizers) don't necessarily have to have airspace authority - neither does there necessarily need to be a TFR - flights over crowds such as this, are illegal as mandated by the FAA/CAA. It is the FAA/CAA and other regulatory agencies that have determined that random drone operations over large crowds are - unsafe.


From the BM website:

15. If a pilot is acting in an unsafe manner* either law enforcement or the Black Rock Rangers have the authority to confiscate the controller/transmitter and transfer it to the Safety Officer.
16. If a crashed craft is found it will be transferred to the Safety Officer.
17. Aircraft confiscated for flying unsafely, recklessly or in violation of rules will be held by the Safety Officer.

*An unsafe manner is demonstrated by flights over crowds

 

[Droning on and on...]

I don't understand the reactions to this post. It seems to be an emotional topic for some. The rules are essentially the same as if I was caught flying my drone over one of our Seattle stadiums, a large parade, or an open air concert. However in those instances the consequences would most likely be far more expensive than just having my drone held for a few days.

Let me help.

What you advocate is arresting and taking to jail someone caught going 68 in a 65mph zone.

That sort of treatment is for the guy going 105 weaving through traffic going 65.

I hope that illustrates the point I'm making. We have no disagreement if someone is doing something dangerous or in violation of flying rules that, having been required to get a TRUST certificate.

No contract is presented upon entry to BM that anyone signs. Most of the detailed rules for the event most of the attendees are blissfully unaware of.

The authorities at BM intend a safe, fun event, and that's what they're there to make happen. They have discretion, and for the most part they use it appropriately. That's why people who imbibe a bit too much are usually handed over to spouses or friends to go sleep it off, rather than ejected from the event, even though public intoxication is prohibited, and grounds for ejection.

On the other hand, people that get drunk and bother other people DO get kicked out.

There's nothing more complicated to my point than that. I've attended BM many times. LEOs at the event are far more reasonable than @Torque and the OP would like them to be. Thank God.

I fully expect to fly my CX-10WD, maybe be asked not to, and will be allowed to simply put it away and carry on with my fun at the event. We'll see.

 

[Torque]

What you advocate is arresting and taking to jail someone caught going 68 in a 65mph zone.

That sort of treatment is for the guy going 105 weaving through traffic going 65.

A jailed traffic violator is analogous to a confiscated drone how?

No contract is presented upon entry to BM that anyone signs. Most of the detailed rules for the event most of the attendees are blissfully unaware of.

When you purchase a ticket to a private event, it is an implied contract. I am not a lawyer so I suggest you goggle this topic.

We have no disagreement if someone is doing something dangerous or in violation of flying rules that, having been required to get a TRUST certificate.

Burning Man rules state that you must have Part 107 to apply to fly there. If you don't, give me your drone until you leave....

There's nothing more complicated to my point than that. I've attended BM many times. LEOs at the event are far more reasonable than @Torque and the OP would like them to be. Thank God.

Clarify please. Because I agree that violator's drones should be temporarily held until the pilot leaves the event you find me "unreasonable". Because I respect the rules they have implemented you find me unreasonable?
Ohhhh Thank God you are protected from my unreasonableness!

 

[Droning on and on...]

To me, after reading this entire thread it is becoming obvious that there are some folks who think laws and regulations are for suckers, and that they can do what they want, and break any rule they disagree with - using their own good judgement of course.

Hmmm... doesn't seem like you actually did read the thread.

Could you point to a single post that advocates for breaking the rules? Where anyone has disagreed with the rules?

It can't be me – I explicitly said I agree with the prohibition 100%.

What I'm arguing is what should happen when there's a violation. How should the rule be enforced? What should authorities do?

By analogy, some here feel a jaywalker should do jail time.

I really don't want to live in a society where justice is administered the way some in this thread seem to want. "No harm, no foul" is a very active aspect t of law enforcement discretion, and the vast majority of us want it to be that way. The "throw the book at 'em" approach regardless of context results in an oppressive society where people walk on eggshells.

We could eliminate speeding by jailing people for a few years, whether 2mph over the limit briefly while changing lanes, or going 100mph.

What seems to be missing here is something I mentioned earlier: The punishment should fit the crime. This is not some silly nostril, it's in the Constitution (cruel and unusual punishment). I think ejecting someone from the event because they didn't know about some rules, when they caused no harm and are more than willing to comply from there on is excessive.

I'll bet there are plenty of judges that would agree.

 

[Cafguy]

Let me help.

What you advocate is arresting and taking to jail someone caught going 68 in a 65mph zone.

That sort of treatment is for the guy going 105 weaving through traffic going 65.

I hope that illustrates the point I'm making. We have no disagreement if someone is doing something dangerous or in violation of flying rules that, having been required to get a TRUST certificate.

No contract is presented upon entry to BM that anyone signs. Most of the detailed rules for the event most of the attendees are blissfully unaware of.

The authorities at BM intend a safe, fun event, and that's what they're there to make happen. They have discretion, and for the most part they use it appropriately. That's why people who imbibe a bit too much are usually handed over to spouses or friends to go sleep it off, rather than ejected from the event, even though public intoxication is prohibited, and grounds for ejection.

On the other hand, people that get drunk and bother other people DO get kicked out.

There's nothing more complicated to my point than that. I've attended BM many times. LEOs at the event are far more reasonable than @Torque and the OP would like them to be. Thank God.

I fully expect to fly my CX-10WD, maybe be asked not to, and will be allowed to simply put it away and carry on with my fun at the event. We'll see.

For Flying your drone at flying man you can expect the following :
1.Your Drone ( Most likely your controller only ) will be confiscated and handed over to the authorities YOU gave them permission to do that when you purchased your ticket.
2. You will not go to jail but you will be trespassed from the area.
3. Security will hold you for the authorities.
4. you will not necessarily be arrested but a report will be made and this report will make its way to the F.A.A.
5. For breaking gosh knows how many regulations and doing it in front of so many people The good folks at the F.A.A. are gonna make sure to set an example with you. Have you seen what the fine is for just flying close to a Parade any day of the week YOURS will be tenfold. Not to mention any other fines they can think up and they think alot down there at the F.A.A.