..and another one

Classic flyer · Sep 11, 2018

ac0j said:
Brace your selves. Possible long post warning!

Years ago, I worked in the 2 way radio industry. We installed repeater systems, towers and such.
Towers being the subject here.
When constructing a tower up to 200 feet agl, there is NO requirements from the FAA. UNLESS it is directly in line and or close to a runway glide slope. The FAA could care lees what happens below 200 feet as far as towers are concerned.
My question is, What if an aircraft collides with this tower under 200' beyoud the obvious crash landing of course.
There is no fault of the tower owner because planes should not be flying that low anyway I assume. So it would all be on the pilot in this case. Am I correct?
This leads me to the next part, lets take down that tower and replace it with a hovering Mavic pro at 200 Feet.
Now the aircraft flys in and collides with the Mavic, and its all the Mavic Pilots fault? We all know it is, but doesnt some responsibility fall on the aircraft for flying too low? if you can put up as many 200 foot towers as you want all over a beach front property without the FAA even caring about it and it being at the peril of the "tourist helicopter pilots" If he hits your tower its his fault, but if he hits my Mavic at 200 feet next to the towers I am at fault......
I feel like the FAA is making up a lot of stuff concerning drones on the fly without to much thinking about it.
There will be some changes I am sure. But as far as towers are concerned (outside of airfields) If its under 200 feet they dont even want to know about it. Same should go for drones in My opinion.

That's why lawyers have jobs...lol, watch out for the "towers"... be safe, fly smart

gnirtS · Sep 11, 2018

Its all to do with proximity to airports and flight paths. Where you could reasonably expect an aircraft to be low.

A 200ft tower 3 miles from an airport off to the side is no issue. A 200ft tower 1 mile from the extended centreline could be an issue (if an aircraft is too low due to pilot error, a potential failure etc).

ac0j · Sep 11, 2018

gnirtS said:
Its all to do with proximity to airports and flight paths. Where you could reasonably expect an aircraft to be low.

A 200ft tower 3 miles from an airport off to the side is no issue. A 200ft tower 1 mile from the extended centreline could be an issue (if an aircraft is too low due to pilot error, a potential failure etc).

Yes I know that. The FAA DOES get involved with ANY tower planning if it is near the glide slope. and usually will not allow it.

The point is EVERYWHERE BUT NEAR AIRPORTS. if the FAA doesnt want to know about 200 foot towers anywhere else Why would a drone that flys at 200 be responsible if there is a collision with a manned aircraft that is not supposed to be that low?
By filing notice to the FAA (outside of airport areas), you can build a tower up to and over 1000 feet high, if painted and or lit with daystrobes. They really dont have any control of it, if it is out of any glide slope.
So it boils down to the FAA HAS to share airspace with tall buildings, tall towers and the like, but the only thing they are really trying to limit is 1 pound hobby drones? It doesnt make any sense to me, but government rarely does....

Air Beetle · Sep 12, 2018

Let me help you make sense of it. Towers and wires across canyons are visible to a pilot from a distance. Towers are also sitting still and are in the same place every day. A drone is not visible to a pilot until the last second and they are never in the same place. When I fly near an airport to land and there are two or three other planes in the pattern, it can be difficult to spot another plane even when they announce their position.

I have seen birds go by my plane but honestly I wouldn't be 100% sure if it was a drone or a bird. I call BS on the original pilot's account.

What IS coming is ADS-B . All aircraft have to have on board ADS-B by 2020. It allows all aircraft to see each other on a screen in the plane. Ipads are popular. It will even flash a warning for potential collisions. Think of it as a tower radar in every plane! Well, guess what, there is a company making ADS-B for drones. If I were to bet on the future, I would bet that all drones will have ADS-B in the future and the drone will be automatically diverted out of an aircraft's path in the case of a potential collision. It will probably just lower the throttle to quickly take the drone out of the path of the plane:

The Case for Low Power ADS-B for Drones

Since I fly both, I am OK with it.

gnirtS · Sep 12, 2018

ADS-B is a sort of option. A few issues though is you'd need an active ADS-B receiver as opposed to relying on tracking sites.
Tracking sites (i) have latency and (ii) actively block and filter many aircraft such as military and private. Currently as well lots dont have ADS-B.
Outside the US, its going to be a very very long time before everything is fitted.

Given how ADS-B works with timeslicing i doubt they'd want the spectrum time slices eaten up by 1000s of drones so i suspect they'll have a different frequency and method designed for low power, low distance.

Automatic diversion would be a security disaster. Given there's currently NO security on ADS-B at all and $150 of gear can inject false aircraft and trigger TCAS TA alerts at will already - it'd be a very easy way to steal a drone.

ac0j · Sep 12, 2018

Air Beetle said:
Let me help you make sense of it. Towers and wires across canyons are visible to a pilot from a distance. Towers are also sitting still and are in the same place every day. A drone is not visible to a pilot until the last second and they are never in the same place. When I fly near an airport to land and there are two or three other planes in the pattern, it can be difficult to spot another plane even when they announce their position.

I have seen birds go by my plane but honestly I wouldn't be 100% sure if it was a drone or a bird. I call BS on the original pilot's account.

What IS coming is ADS-B . All aircraft have to have on board ADS-B by 2020. It allows all aircraft to see each other on a screen in the plane. Ipads are popular. It will even flash a warning for potential collisions. Think of it as a tower radar in every plane! Well, guess what, there is a company making ADS-B for drones. If I were to bet on the future, I would bet that all drones will have ADS-B in the future and the drone will be automatically diverted out of an aircraft's path in the case of a potential collision. It will probably just lower the throttle to quickly take the drone out of the path of the plane:

The Case for Low Power ADS-B for Drones

Since I fly both, I am OK with it.

So am I right that you can’t fly real aircraft under 200 feet? I am not talking about power line towers. I am talking about the three sided variety that have a radio antenna on top. Usually with 10” faces and 3/16” guy wires radiating down. They will not be painted or lit. And are grey metal. If you are a good pilot you probably never even notice them while flying at a normal altitude.
Also. If you hit my hypothetical 200 foot tower in my pasture it would be you fault. As it should be if you hit my drone flying at 200 feet. In the same scenario. That is the point I am trying to make. You are absolutely correct with all of your comments.

Air Beetle · Sep 12, 2018

I'm sure they have thought of everything you mentioned on the negative side. Did you read the page I linked? Nothing will ever be perfect, I agree. Heck an aircraft without a charge system isn't even required to have a radio but we haven't seen mid airs of Cub's getting hit by other aircraft.

I was considering automatic diversion from within that aircraft firmware not from ground personnel. If your assertion were true then any aircraft with auto pilot could be taken over by someone. Not likely.

gnirtS · Sep 12, 2018

Radio masts and any guide wires off them should generally be on the VFR charts and the height recorded in the minimum safe altitude reported for that grid.

ac0j · Sep 12, 2018

gnirtS said:
Radio masts and any guide wires off them should generally be on the VFR charts and the height recorded in the minimum safe altitude reported for that grid.

Yes all towers above 200 feet ARE registered with the FAA. Also painted and lit. Shorter towers within glide slopes of airports will be too.
But NOT farmer johns 200 footer, not my ham radio tower out in the pasture (hypothetically speaking of course) Because the FAA does not require them registered neither does the FCC other that to assign frequencies for that area.
This is my point If the FAA doesnt want to know about 200 foot towers, (ok, lets say 199' 15/16" towers cause I can see what will come next) They will NOT appear on charts or maps. That leads me to believe that the FAA doesnt want to know about the towers, because aircraft shouldnt be there. (assumption)
SO, Again I ask, If a light aircraft hits my tower (that I do not have, for discussion purposes only) it would be the pilots fault, for flying too low? (keep in mind Not near an airfield of any kind)Yes or no?
If the answer is YES, then How can it be a drone operators fault if a plane hits a drone at 200' in the same location as the Hypothetical tower?
I realize that the drone will always lose, but it doesn't seem right.

gnirtS · Sep 12, 2018

The drone operator is following a variation on visual flight rules. He's entirely responsible for observing traffic and hazards and avoiding them. No different to a normal pilot flying VFR banging into something. He's not looking.

There are also many legitimate reasons for an aircraft to be below the 500ft recommendation away from airports.

ac0j · Sep 12, 2018

gnirtS said:
The drone operator is following a variation on visual flight rules. He's entirely responsible for observing traffic and hazards and avoiding them. No different to a normal pilot flying VFR banging into something. He's not looking.

There are also many legitimate reasons for an aircraft to be below the 500ft recommendation away from airports.

Thanks for trying to participate. I am just spit balling here and appreciate any input. I understand how it is with drones, I dont understand how it is with aircraft. Maybe despite My efforts to make the question simple I have failed again
I guess My curiosity will be satisfied IF the secret organization of REAL pilots could answer this ONE and only question. Without betraying some secret oath.
Forget every thing else I have said......

If an aircraft is flying in airspace 500 miles from any airport, and crashes into ANYONES LEGAL 200 foot tower, is it the aircraft pilots fault? Not talking about emergencies or anything to do with drones now.

Lake_Flyer · Sep 13, 2018

500 feet is the minimum altitude in my country (NL), helicopters are allowed to fly lower because they don't need a glide path for a emergency landing.

ac0j · Sep 13, 2018

Thank you @Lake_Flyer for the response. It must be a taboo subject for American pilots. Hence the lack of response.
I bet in your country, even if the heli hits a tower it would be the pilots fault.
Pilots around here don’t seem to want to just say “ let the drones have 0 to 400 feet ( for example) and the light aircraft will stay above that. Because they still want to say the drone should not be in the same sky I am. So if THEY cause an accident flying too low, they can always have someone else to blame. It seems.

Classic flyer · Sep 13, 2018

Air Beetle said:
Let me help you make sense of it. Towers and wires across canyons are visible to a pilot from a distance. Towers are also sitting still and are in the same place every day. A drone is not visible to a pilot until the last second and they are never in the same place. When I fly near an airport to land and there are two or three other planes in the pattern, it can be difficult to spot another plane even when they announce their position.

I have seen birds go by my plane but honestly I wouldn't be 100% sure if it was a drone or a bird. I call BS on the original pilot's account.

What IS coming is ADS-B . All aircraft have to have on board ADS-B by 2020. It allows all aircraft to see each other on a screen in the plane. Ipads are popular. It will even flash a warning for potential collisions. Think of it as a tower radar in every plane! Well, guess what, there is a company making ADS-B for drones. If I were to bet on the future, I would bet that all drones will have ADS-B in the future and the drone will be automatically diverted out of an aircraft's path in the case of a potential collision. It will probably just lower the throttle to quickly take the drone out of the path of the plane:

The Case for Low Power ADS-B for Drones

Since I fly both, I am OK with it.

ac0j said:
Thank you @Lake_Flyer for the response. It must be a taboo subject for American pilots. Hence the lack of response.
I bet in your country, even if the heli hits a tower it would be the pilots fault.
Pilots around here don’t seem to want to just say “ let the drones have 0 to 400 feet ( for example) and the light aircraft will stay above that. Because they still want to say the drone should not be in the same sky I am. So if THEY cause an accident flying too low, they can always have someone else to blame. It seems.

In today's world it seems that it's always someone else's fault...no accountability...be safe, fly smart

Nfhill · Sep 13, 2018

Air Beetle said:
Let me help you make sense of it. Towers and wires across canyons are visible to a pilot from a distance. Towers are also sitting still and are in the same place every day. A drone is not visible to a pilot until the last second and they are never in the same place. When I fly near an airport to land and there are two or three other planes in the pattern, it can be difficult to spot another plane even when they announce their position.

I have seen birds go by my plane but honestly I wouldn't be 100% sure if it was a drone or a bird. I call BS on the original pilot's account.

What IS coming is ADS-B . All aircraft have to have on board ADS-B by 2020. It allows all aircraft to see each other on a screen in the plane. Ipads are popular. It will even flash a warning for potential collisions. Think of it as a tower radar in every plane! Well, guess what, there is a company making ADS-B for drones. If I were to bet on the future, I would bet that all drones will have ADS-B in the future and the drone will be automatically diverted out of an aircraft's path in the case of a potential collision. It will probably just lower the throttle to quickly take the drone out of the path of the plane:

The Case for Low Power ADS-B for Drones

Since I fly both, I am OK with it.

The ADS-B requirement by 2020 is only for aircraft flying ABOVE 10,000' msl (at least in the US). I believe there are also a few high traffic airport areas where it will be required down to the ground. Because of the cost, most general aviation aircraft will not have ADS-Bout systems. If you are out flying your drone, what kind of aircraft is most likely to be flying low enough to present an airspace conflict?

Nick