Bay Area Airspace

[hopdrone]

Hey guys, I'm planning on getting the mavic pro soon and I'm doing the due diligence on reading up on local airspace regulations. I live in San Mateo within 5 miles of SFO so know I cannot legally fly there. My question is, when looking on the FAA B4UFLY app, most of Pacifica is labeled as restricted airspace, even though it's out of the 5 mile radius. Checking on the airmap app, it gives me a yellow advisory saying to fly with caution due to class be airspace (not a full on restricted warning). When I look at the airspace charts for the area it seems like the area around Pacifica only has class B airspace starting at 1500 foot elevation (and in some areas 4000 foot). Assuming I avoid other restricted space (golden gate national park ect.) Am I good to fly? Anyone familiar with the area able to fill me in on the discrepancies? My assumption is B4UFLY is over zealous in labeling areas as restricted, and the advisory in airmaps is a reference to the upper level of class b airspace I plan on flying below. Any other advice on navigating the bay area? Attaching the air charts with area I want to fly in circled.

 

[ElGuapo]

The app is right.

Class B airspace was covered in depth when I was studying for my part 107 test. Think of class B airspace as an upside down wedding cake, with layers. Class B airspace has 5 layers in the SFO area, your screen shot shows 3 blue rings. Inside the first blue ring, closest to San Francisco's Intl - SFO, class B airspace starts at the surface. West of SFO class B starts at 1500ft MSL, but then you have another layer a bit east that starts 2100ft MSL. South of SFO Class B starts at 4000ft MSL. Definitely stay away from Class B that starts at the surface - SFC.

 

[invnote]

Definitely stay away from Class B that starts at the surface - SFC.

View attachment 12903

Please state your source.

If OP were flying commercially, then he could request to operate in controlled airspace, including Class B: UAS Facility Maps

Or if the OP where flying recreationally, why would Class B restrictions apply at all? I don't see any mention of controlled airspace here within Subpart E:
eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

nor here (except when applied specifically to part 107 flights): Best Practices for Flying your Drone within Five Miles of an Airport - AOPA

 

[ascension]

Please state your source.

If OP were flying commercially, then he could request to operate in controlled airspace, including Class B: UAS Facility Maps

Or if the OP where flying recreationally, why would Class B restrictions apply at all? I don't see any mention of controlled airspace here within Subpart E:
eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

nor here (except when applied specifically to part 107 flights): Best Practices for Flying your Drone within Five Miles of an Airport - AOPA

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

"There are two ways for recreational or hobby UAS fliers to operate in the National Airspace System in accordance with the law and/or FAA regulations. Each of the two options has specific requirements that the UAS operator must follow. The decision as to which option to follow is up to the individual operator.

Option #1. Fly in accordance with the Special Rule for Model Aircraft (Public Law 112-95 Section 336). Under this rule, operators must:

• Fly for hobby or recreational purposes only
• Follow a community-based set of safety guidelines
• Fly the UAS within visual line-of-sight
• Give way to manned aircraft
• Provide prior notification to the airport and air traffic control tower, if one is present, when flying within 5 miles of an airport."

 

[invnote]

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

"There are two ways for recreational or hobby UAS fliers to operate in the National Airspace System in accordance with the law and/or FAA regulations. Each of the two options has specific requirements that the UAS operator must follow. The decision as to which option to follow is up to the individual operator.

Option #1. Fly in accordance with the Special Rule for Model Aircraft (Public Law 112-95 Section 336). Under this rule, operators must:

• Fly for hobby or recreational purposes only
• Follow a community-based set of safety guidelines
• Fly the UAS within visual line-of-sight
• Give way to manned aircraft
• Provide prior notification to the airport and air traffic control tower, if one is present, when flying within 5 miles of an airport."

Thanks for taking the time to look this up. However...

1. "Provide prior notification" is quite a different requirement than "Definitely stay away", and
2. Your source provides guidance for "within 5 miles of an airport," however, the OP was specifically asking about class B airspace that is beyond 5 miles from the airport. Your source does not mention controlled airspace classifications (such as Class B), so I don't think your source applies at all to the OP's question.

To give a bit more context... the "five mile radius" rule is not the same as "Class B Controlled Airspace". Also, the "five mile radius" from your source refers to statue miles, which are different than nautical miles. It's not unusual for Class B airspace to extend five nautical miles from an airport or even more, leaving large areas of our country within Class B (yes even extending down to the surface) but outside of the "five mile radius" from the source you cited. I haven't heard of any authority governing hobbyist use of Class B airspace, and currently commercial part 107 pilots can submit requests to fly in Class B. So I still don't see any justification for the statement "Definitely stay away from Class B that starts at the surface - SFC."

 

[ascension]

Thanks for taking the time to look this up. However...

1. "Provide prior notification" is quite a different requirement than "Definitely stay away", and
2. Your source provides guidance for "within 5 miles of an airport," however, the OP was specifically asking about class B airspace that is beyond 5 miles from the airport. Your source does not mention controlled airspace classifications (such as Class B), so I don't think your source applies at all to the OP's question.

To give a bit more context... the "five mile radius" rule is not the same as "Class B Controlled Airspace". Also, the "five mile radius" from your source refers to statue miles, which are different than nautical miles. It's not unusual for Class B airspace to extend five nautical miles from an airport or even more, leaving large areas of our country within Class B (yes even extending down to the surface) but outside of the "five mile radius" from the source you cited. I haven't heard of any authority governing hobbyist use of Class B airspace, and currently commercial part 107 pilots can submit requests to fly in Class B. So I still don't see any justification for the statement "Definitely stay away from Class B that starts at the surface - SFC."

I'm quite aware of the difference between nautical and statute miles. It doesn't apply to this question.
As an airline pilot, I am quite familiar with class B airspace and the dimensions, and they vary from one terminal control area to the next, depending on instrument transition areas cause by runway configuration, though to an airline pilot, it really doesn't matter. We are always in controlled airspace, so we don't think about it.

What you said was:
"I haven't heard of any authority governing hobbyist use of Class B airspace.."

Here's what the FAA has to say, from the same link.
"Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination."

 

[invnote]

I'm quite aware of the difference between nautical and statute miles. It doesn't apply to this question.
As an airline pilot, I am quite familiar with class B airspace and the dimensions, and they vary from one terminal control area to the next, depending on instrument transition areas cause by runway configuration, though to an airline pilot, it really doesn't matter. We are always in controlled airspace, so we don't think about it.

What you said was:
"I haven't heard of any authority governing hobbyist use of Class B airspace.."

Here's what the FAA has to say, from the same link.
"Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination."

Thanks for finding that, very interesting! It's not at the same link, though; it's actually here: Airspace Restrictions
I wonder where this stands in light of the recent appeals court ruling against the FAA (saying that requiring hobbyists to register violates Section 336 of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012).
Here's a link to the FMRA: https://consumermediallc.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/sec_331_336_uas.pdf
Section 334 (applying to "Public Unmanned Aircraft System") specifies Class G airspace, but Section 336 (applying to "Model Aircraft") does not specify any airspace classifications. It's hard for me to believe that congress meant to regulate hobbyist use of controlled airspace when they included references to controlled airspace in section 334 while not including any reference to controlled airspace in section 336. Perhaps Section 336 subsection (b) covers it?

(b) STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION
.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.​

Still, the FAA statement you highlighted doesn't prohibit hobbyists from flying in Class B, rather it lists the requirements to allow hobbyists to fly in Class B.

So the statement "Definitely stay away from Class B that starts at the surface - SFC" has no support, as we've found ways to authorize both commercial and hobbyist operators to fly in Class B.

 

[ascension]

Still, the FAA statement you highlighted doesn't prohibit hobbyists from flying in Class B, rather it lists the requirements to allow hobbyists to fly in Class B.

So the statement "Definitely stay away from Class B that starts at the surface - SFC" has no support, as we've found ways to authorize both commercial and hobbyist operators to fly in Class B.

Clearly, I never said it prohibited drone operators from operating in that airspace.
Get a clearance and you'd be OK.
Regarding the original statement, I never commented on that either,

What I do assert is an argument against what you said, which was that the FAA hasn't published anything regarding a hobbyist operating in Class B, (or other controlled airspace for that matter).

It is my opinion that we are going to see far more specificity from the FAA with a much easier to interpret set of regs on unmanned "aircraft."
I think there will be a ceiling above which a clearance will be required, but I'm sure they don't care a bit about extremely low altitude operations by operators who are unlicensed and untested, using toys that are inspected and have no design standards,and want no part in dealing with them, which leaves all of that jurisdiction to local govs.
That's where I think we are headed.

 

[invnote]

Clearly, I never said it prohibited drone operators from operating in that airspace.
Get a clearance and you'd be OK.
Regarding the original statement, I never commented on that either,

What I do assert is an argument against what you said, which was that the FAA hasn't published anything regarding a hobbyist operating in Class B, (or other controlled airspace for that matter).

It is my opinion that we are going to see far more specificity from the FAA with a much easier to interpret set of regs on unmanned "aircraft."
I think there will be a ceiling above which a clearance will be required, but I'm sure they don't care a bit about extremely low altitude operations by operators who are unlicensed and untested, using toys that are inspected and have no design standards,and want no part in dealing with them, which leaves all of that jurisdiction to local govs.
That's where I think we are headed.

Yes, it was another commenter that said it (see post #2).

You might well be right in terms of the direction that regulation is heading. The FAA's work on the "UAS Facility Maps" shows that they want to make it easier to allow unmanned flights with specific low-altitude ceilings in specific places. Looking at some of these maps, it seems that many of the areas that the OP asked about (Class B airspace from surface, and beyond 5 miles from airport) are getting classified as 0, 100, 200, and 400 feet ceilings. From my understanding, these ceilings still are one a case-by-case basis for commercial pilots who request airspace authorization, and they don't directly apply to hobbyists.

Not sure about the FAA or Congress wanting to give up jurisdiction to local governments.