Can I fly at night?

[brett8883]

Not sure why you would use this as an example. It's ludacris.
Bottom line you are getting paid to fly missions for a commercial business.
-The fact you don't get paid extra - irrelevant you are getting paid.
-The fact you don't have to it - irrelevant you are getting paid.
-The fact you like doing - no comment, just silly in this context..
-You think you are doing a better job - ditto.
Why would you (or anyone else) think it otherwise?

If a private pilot takes pictures out of his windows and sells them does he suddenly need a commercial pilots certificate?
No, because he is not hiring out his services as a pilot.
If a pilot starts taking out photographers for money to take pictures - he then becomes a pilot for hire.
And if the FAA ever does decided to enforce this I can't imagine any other reasonable interpretation.

I should have been more clear I am the financial analyst for my firm. They pay me for my financial work and not to do drone operations. If I decided tomorrow I won’t do drone operations anymore. I would still make the same amount of money. I essentially donate the drone work to my firm.

If I worked and got paid as a social worker for a charity could I donate drone work to that charity without needing a 107 certificate? If you still say I need a 107 to donate drone work to my firm but not to donate drone work to the charity then why? What’s the difference?

If I did the same work for another company but didn’t get paid for it would you say that is a recreational operation because I didn’t get anything in return even though it is for a for-profit company?

If a friend asks me to take photos of a property he is selling to use in promotional materials and I do it for free is that not non-recreational even though I’m not getting paid?

For the record I think all examples above are non-recreational but I want to find out where you draw the line.

If a private pilot takes pictures out of his windows and sells them does he suddenly need a commercial pilots certificate?

Ah but if a UAV pilot takes photos to sell this would be an obvious case of needing a part 107 certificate. Even if the photos are not ultimately sold because it is the intent of the flight that matters. Another case of where money doesn’t need to change hands to make an operation non-recreational.

The way I understand the word “recreational” is the intent to go out flying around for personal enjoyment and maybe taking photos and sharing them with my family and friends. Nobody benefits economically from this or at least at the time of the flight I don’t intend for anybody to benefit economically from it. I would need to see some guidance (I’d even take non-official guidance) from the FAA to consider interpreting the law differently than from how the plain English of the law reads.

 

[brett8883]

This is a great thread. I thought I could not fly my M2P at night period unless I had a waiver. Glad to hear under that under recreational rules, I can. Now for my question, I have a M2P, what additional lights do I need on it to fly at night?

You don’t need additional lighting to adhere to the rules but using at least two bright strobe lights would be advisable and would allow you to fly further away because you could see it further and thus be able to avoid manned aircraft from a greater distance than without them.

 

[Magilla Gorilla]

Depends what country.
Here in Thailand ,flying in the dark is not allowed ,regardless of lights or lasers.
P.s. You also need a license (2) for the mini, because it has a camera.

Interesting that you need a license because of the camera!
And the no flying at night rule doesn’t allow for mis-interpretation.

 

[BigAl07]

Not sure if the regulation you quoted has any relevance to the question at hand.
After numerous talks with FAA the deciding factor is remuneration and really nothing else.
If you did a mission for the charity and accepted nothing in return the FAA would accept that as a recreational flight......

I'd love to know what FAA representative/Office you got this information from as they are incorrect regardless how many times they've told you this. If you have that information I've love to get it and set some things straight. Just like any/every other human we all make mistakes and if they don't know they are saying it incorrectly we need to let them know. Feel free to PM me that information but we need to get this addressed as it's WRONG and needs to be corrected immediately. This isn't the first time we've seen someone giving out incorrect UAS information within the FAA but it is something we can address and correct. We had one whole FAA office giving wrong information early 2019 and all it took was one phone call and one video conference call and everyone was on the same page and CORRECT.

We can not HOBBY/RECREATE for any other person/entity. Even volunteer work can't be Hobby/Recreation because it benefits someone else ($$ is but ONE factor and not the only factor). Someone can't "ask you to fly for them" and it still be Hobby/Recreational regardless of $$, beer, concert tickets, ett etc. It's all about INTENT of the flight.

I repeat you can not HOBBY/RECREATE for someone else. The very moment you are "doing it FOR someone else" you have pierced the protective bubble of Hobby/Recreation and you're now liable for all of Part 107 Rules & Regulations.

 

[Deleted member 114292]

I'd love to know what FAA representative/Office you got this information from as they are incorrect regardless how many times they've told you this. If you have that information I've love to get it and set some things straight. Just like any/every other human we all make mistakes and if they don't know they are saying it incorrectly we need to let them know. Feel free to PM me that information but we need to get this addressed as it's WRONG and needs to be corrected immediately. This isn't the first time we've seen someone giving out incorrect UAS information within the FAA but it is something we can address and correct. We had one whole FAA office giving wrong information early 2019 and all it took was one phone call and one video conference call and everyone was on the same page and CORRECT.

We can not HOBBY/RECREATE for any other person/entity. Even volunteer work can't be Hobby/Recreation because it benefits someone else ($$ is but ONE factor and not the only factor). Someone can't "ask you to fly for them" and it still be Hobby/Recreational regardless of $$, beer, concert tickets, ett etc. It's all about INTENT of the flight.

I repeat you can not HOBBY/RECREATE for someone else. The very moment you are "doing it FOR someone else" you have pierced the protective bubble of Hobby/Recreation and you're now liable for all of Part 107 Rules & Regulations.

Having said that since the FAA has no INTENT of enforcing any of that, it will be interesting to see what happens if they do.
While they can say you need part 107 to get hired to fly I think they will have trouble saying you can't sell the pictures you took for yourself, regardless. The big problem with intent is proving it.

 

[eaglesurfing]

Well look at that.
Look at number 6.

 

[BigAl07]

Having said that since the FAA has no INTENT of enforcing any of that, it will be interesting to see what happens if they do.
While they can say you need part 107 to get hired to fly I think they will have trouble saying you can't sell the pictures you took for yourself, regardless. The big problem with intent is proving it.

You don't know what actions are being taken each and every day. There have been numerous individuals contacted and "Educated" by the FAA for "Part 107 Operations w/o Part 107".

I'm still waiting on that FAA Contact information from you so we can get them on the right path and not spewing incorrect information which then gets re-spewed on the forums.

 

[Deleted member 114292]

You don't know what actions are being taken each and every day. There have been numerous individuals contacted and "Educated" by the FAA for "Part 107 Operations w/o Part 107".

I'm still waiting on that FAA Contact information from you so we can get them on the right path and not spewing incorrect information which then gets re-spewed on the forums.

I've posted it several times. But as been pointed out it is just one persons opinion, FAA employee or not, and from my understanding the FAA re-education program has not been about taking photos but about unsafe missions. Since they don't have the resources to enforce all but the most egregious safety violations I can't image they will really care what you do with your photographs at this point.

Worse case you might get a warning, and since it is not a matter of safety and the FAA will not make a clear statement I don't care anymore. Further the FAA has ignored congresses mandate to have a knowledge test for recreational pilots - they are responsible for the current situation.

If we could just get members to understand controlled airspace it would be a win. Recent posts once again confirm that many pilots don't.

My only contact information si [email protected] and 844-359-6982 both from dronezone. You can call or write and they will answer. I am sure they will say if sell it they you need a 107. But check for yourself.

I wish Vic would weigh in and confirm the subject matter of his work with FAA.

 

[BigAl07]

Worse case you might get a warning, and since it is not a matter of safety and the FAA will not make a clear statement I don't care anymore. Further the FAA has ignored congresses mandate to have a knowledge test for recreational pilots - they are responsible for the current situation.

They have not ignored the testing mandate in the least. You've got to understand that it's more than "just creating a simple test and posting it online". Yes the test has to be created but first the curriculum, study materials, practice materials etc etc have to be created to SUPPORT the required test. All of the above is being created and hopefully it will be released sooner than later but NOTHING has been ignored. The FAA can't simply wink twice and click their heels together and a complete program pop into existence.

My only contact information si [email protected] and 844-359-6982 both from dronezone. You can call or write and they will answer. I am sure they will say if sell it they you need a 107. But check for yourself.

I wish Vic would weigh in and confirm the subject matter of his work with FAA.

You do realize that I'm also an FAA Safety Team Representative (Manned Aviation) and an FAA Safety Team Drone Professional? I'm not speaking from 2nd hand information or hearsay but first hand FAA information along with years of sUAS experience and education.

 

[Deleted member 114292]

You do realize that I'm also an FAA Safety Team Representative (Manned Aviation) and an FAA Safety Team Drone Professional? I'm not speaking from 2nd hand information or hearsay but first hand FAA information along with years of sUAS experience and education.

Did not know that.
In regards to the test "perfect is the enemy of done" even if they just had a test that reviewed the 11 recreational rules at least more pilots would have read them.
Sometimes a test is more about making you aware of information than becoming a knowledge expert. Just knowing about controlled airspace would be better than being totally unaware.

I get that they are overloaded and underfunded and I appreciate the time they have spent working with me on my auths - but you can feel that way and still criticize other things without condemning the organization as a whole.