Crop dusters below 500' AGL

[tdowler]

It's after the flying season for farms in the U.S. (today is December 1st) but a conversation earlier in the year with a farmer made me realize how things could go sour quickly. I introduced myself and asked if it was ok if I flew nearby and took video of his tractors working in the field. He told me it sounded fun and I was welcome to video but I might want to hurry because the crop duster working the next field would be back shortly and would be passing overhead. I chose not to take any chances and didn't put my drone in the air.

Full-scale aircraft pilots that perform farming operations (crop dusting, planting, fertilizing, defoliation, etc.) will regularly drop down near the ground and don't have to follow the fixed wing aircraft rule of 500' AGL floor. I won't pretend to know all the rules involved there. They stay relatively low when they bank around for the next pass.

Even through they're below 500' AGL, I'm pretty sure I know where the blame would fall following a collision with a drone even if it occurred in Class E airspace at 50' AGL. As fast as they fly, we might not be able to get out of the way if they appeared unexpectedly. The bigger issue is possibility of catastrophic results for the airplane pilot.

Just food for thought.

 

[akdrone]

I'm not sure that 500' rule is an absolute at all. I don't know the details but I believe the crop dusters are flying legally within FAA rules and regs.

 

[BSauce955]

It's after the flying season for farms in the U.S. (today is December 1st) but a conversation earlier in the year with a farmer made me realize how things could go sour quickly. I introduced myself and asked if it was ok if I flew nearby and took video of his tractors working in the field. He told me it sounded fun and I was welcome to video but I might want to hurry because the crop duster working the next field would be back shortly and would be passing overhead. I chose not to take any chances and didn't put my drone in the air.

Full-scale aircraft pilots that perform farming operations (crop dusting, planting, fertilizing, defoliation, etc.) will regularly drop down near the ground and don't have to follow the fixed wing aircraft rule of 500' AGL floor. I won't pretend to know all the rules involved there. They stay relatively low when they bank around for the next pass.

Even through they're below 500' AGL, I'm pretty sure I know where the blame would fall following a collision with a drone even if it occurred in Class E airspace at 50' AGL. As fast as they fly, we might not be able to get out of the way if they appeared unexpectedly. The bigger issue is possibility of catastrophic results for the airplane pilot.

Just food for thought.

Surely, a drone pilot couldn't be prosecuted following all the applicable rules if he couldn't take evasive action soon enough. However, I do agree with your judgment of not taking the risk. I believe it should be avoided at all costs, but let's imagine that you weren't informed of the duster coming in. If you truly couldn't take evasive action soon enough, I do not believe that you could be fined for flying your drone below 400 feet. However, I do believe that your flight would be placed under the most stringent scrutiny and any small error MIGHT be overinflated, and thus they might pin the incident on you.

 

[BigAl07]

Surely, a drone pilot couldn't be prosecuted following all the applicable rules if he couldn't take evasive action soon enough. However, I do agree with your judgment of not taking the risk. I believe it should be avoided at all costs, but let's imagine that you weren't informed of the duster coming in. If you truly couldn't take evasive action soon enough, I do not believe that you could be fined for flying your drone below 400 feet. However, I do believe that your flight would be placed under the most stringent scrutiny and any small error might be overinflated and thus they might pin the mishap on you

It's is the RESPONSIBIGLITY of every UAS Operator to never interfere with manned aircraft. If there is an incident between manned and unmanned aircraft the UAS operator will be at fault. The rule doesn't say, "Avoid as long as it's convenient to you".....


There is a LOT of misconception about the "Minimum Altitude set for by the FAA"
We should ALL be intimately familiar with Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 91.119 of the General Operating and Flight Rules especially if we want to go online and try to assist others in regards to regulations etc.

Over other than congested areas – An altitude of 500 feet above the surface except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In that case, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

Also keep in mind that airplanes can get WAIVERS to deviate to existing rules very similar to how we can with Part 107.

 

[BigAl07]

Part 107

Certificated Remote Pilots including Commercial Operators

www.faa.gov

• §107.37(a) Yielding the right of way

~44809

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title49-section44809&num=0&edition=prelim

(4) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft.

 

[BigAl07]

It's after the flying season for farms in the U.S. (today is December 1st) but a conversation earlier in the year with a farmer made me realize how things could go sour quickly. I introduced myself and asked if it was ok if I flew nearby and took video of his tractors working in the field. He told me it sounded fun and I was welcome to video but I might want to hurry because the crop duster working the next field would be back shortly and would be passing overhead. I chose not to take any chances and didn't put my drone in the air.

Full-scale aircraft pilots that perform farming operations (crop dusting, planting, fertilizing, defoliation, etc.) will regularly drop down near the ground and don't have to follow the fixed wing aircraft rule of 500' AGL floor. I won't pretend to know all the rules involved there. They stay relatively low when they bank around for the next pass.

Even through they're below 500' AGL, I'm pretty sure I know where the blame would fall following a collision with a drone even if it occurred in Class E airspace at 50' AGL. As fast as they fly, we might not be able to get out of the way if they appeared unexpectedly. The bigger issue is possibility of catastrophic results for the airplane pilot.

Just food for thought.

Well done and VERY well stated! KUDOS to you for using your head and doing the right thing.

 

[BSauce955]

It's is the RESPONSIBIGLITY of every UAS Operator to never interfere with manned aircraft. If there is an incident between manned and unmanned aircraft the UAS operator will be at fault. The rule doesn't say, "Avoid as long as it's convenient to you".....

I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say. If there was no means of warning the UAS operator, how can they be punished for what was not communicated to them? If they indeed get waivers as you said, then there should be a warning SOMEWHERE for the drone pilot to know that there will be low flying aircraft in the vicinity and to take precautions. Nowhere did I say that the pilot should only move if it's convenient. I specifically stated, "if you CANNOT take evasive measures." That's also stated in PilotInstitute's course that you must try to take evasive measures. If you cannot, what can you do? Nothing, you weren't warned and you couldn't act in time. No way such a flimsy argument could stand up in a court of law.

 

[Ty Pilot]

. . . If there was no means of warning the UAS operator, how can they be punished for what was not communicated to them?

This is why we have to fly VLOS, it is our job to assure the following:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

Ultimately, the rules framework for the NAS here in the US may be said to have flaws when viewed from a UAV pilot's perspective (as you have noted) but never the less, they (the FAA), have put the burden of identifying and avoiding manned aviation on US whether we think it is logical or not.

As far as this subject goes, perhaps as drone pilots, when we see a giant field of crops, the possibility of a crop duster should be included in our preflight.

 

[BSauce955]

This is why we have to fly VLOS, it is our job to assure the following:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

Ultimately, the rules framework for the NAS here in the US may be said to have flaws when viewed from a UAV pilot's perspective (as you have noted) but never the less, they (the FAA), have put the burden of identifying and avoiding manned aviation on US whether we think it is logical or not.

As far as logic goes, perhaps as drone pilots, when we see a giant field of crops, the possibility of a crop duster should be included in our preflight.

I agree completely. However, often, fields (at least fields around my area) are surrounded by dense forest. Therefore, unless it's a noisy aircraft, you're not going to be seeing the low flying airplane until it passes the trees. At that point, you just have to hope that you're either not in the way or you can move in time. That's just my reasoning and if there's a flaw someone please point it out to me.

 

[BigAl07]

I agree completely. However, often, fields (at least fields around my area) are surrounded by dense forest. Therefore, unless it's a noisy aircraft, you're not going to be seeing the low flying airplane until it passes the trees. At that point, you just have to hope that you're either not in the way or you can move in time. That's just my reasoning and if there's a flaw someone please point it out to me.

If you are about to walk across the road and you have no way to see/hear if traffic is coming, do you just chance it anyway or do you wait and cross somewhere that you CAN see/hear? When it's your life on the line hopefully you'll find a way to do it safely and when you're flying in the NAS it's just a toy UAS but those others up there have actual living and breathing human beings who have families and loved ones counting on them coming back home at the end of the day.

There is no excuse for flying in a way that you can't avoid a collision. If it's so quick/close you can't descend quick enough you have CSC and pray that's enough. Otherwise you are at fault.

We don't have the option of anything except See & Avoid. If you can't ensure that then you need to not fly or fly somewhere else exactly like the OP did.

 

[BSauce955]

If you are about to walk across the road and you have no way to see/hear if traffic is coming, do you just chance it anyway or do you wait and cross somewhere that you CAN see/hear? When it's your life on the line hopefully you'll find a way to do it safely and when you're flying in the NAS it's just a toy UAS but those others up there have actual living and breathing human beings who have families and loved ones counting on them coming back home at the end of the day.

There is no excuse for flying in a way that you can't avoid a collision. If it's so quick/close you can't descend quick enough you have CSC and pray that's enough. Otherwise you are at fault.

We don't have the option of anything except See & Avoid. If you can't ensure that then you need to not fly or fly somewhere else exactly like the OP did.

Fair enough.

 

[old man mavic]

@BSauce955 with regards to your post #9 then the only safe way to fly in those fields you mentioned,that are surrounded by trees would be to stay below the tree line at all times ,and be in constant VLOS
or better still avoid flying in the area completely ,

 

[Ty Pilot]

I agree completely. However, often, fields (at least fields around my area) are surrounded by dense forest. Therefore, unless it's a noisy aircraft, you're not going to be seeing the low flying airplane until it passes the trees. At that point, you just have to hope that you're either not in the way or you can move in time. That's just my reasoning and if there's a flaw someone please point it out to me.

I've been caught off-guard and had a Sheriff's helicopter pass close to me on an occasion so I know it can happen. The only thing I am saying that is flawed is; we as drone pilot's are the ONLY responsible party to avoid manned aviation. To think that there is a scenario where this is not true is only fooling ourselves.

In your example you lay out a scenario where a low flying aircraft is flying very low over the trees and suddenly appears. Okay - lets say you ARE flying a drone and this happens and there IS a collision and the aircraft's front windshield is damaged and the pilot has some injuries, but manages to successfully perform a gear-up landing in the field where you are flying.

The NTSB and FAA begin an investigation and you comply for an interview - which of the following (very general) responses would YOU give?

1] I have a trust certificate, the drone is registered and I was flying in class E non restricted airspace then all of a sudden this guy flew into MY airspace and hit my drone.

OR

2] I have a trust certificate, the drone is registered and I was flying in class E non restricted airspace. I checked the airspace for traffic before flight and saw no aircraft at that time. When the aircraft appeared, I had very little time to react to get out of their way but did everything I could to avoid a collision and yield to this aircraft but could not get out of the way in time.

Do you see the difference? This is why some of us respond to these threads like we do because pilot attitude is a major contributing factor to a lot of crashes. There is a whole section in fact, on how to recognize and avoid hazardous attitudes.

In the above scenario, the UAV pilot's attitude during the time of their flight could be the difference between being at fault or a contributing factor to the event.

 

[Daytona500]

exactly, Its your responsibility to know whats around you at all times. There is no excuse to be in the way of manned aircraft. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it could be an electric airplane that sneaks in over the trees, no sound at 200 feet he hits your drone its your fault period. Sorry but thats the way it is.

 

[old man mavic]

@Ty Pilot that post #13 was spot on the money
you hit the nail right on the head (attitude) ,if we as drone pilots can show that we understand the rules around risk management, and demonstrate that we did everything in our power to minimise the risks involved , then that goes a very long way with regards to any of the findings of the enquiry into the incident

 

[Deleted member 93449]

Your "I'm pretty sure I know where the blame would fall" is spot on.

 

[Aerial Edge]

I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say. If there was no means of warning the UAS operator, how can they be punished for what was not communicated to them? If they indeed get waivers as you said, then there should be a warning SOMEWHERE for the drone pilot to know that there will be low flying aircraft in the vicinity and to take precautions. Nowhere did I say that the pilot should only move if it's convenient. I specifically stated, "if you CANNOT take evasive measures." That's also stated in PilotInstitute's course that you must try to take evasive measures. If you cannot, what can you do? Nothing, you weren't warned and you couldn't act in time. No way such a flimsy argument could stand up in a court of law.

Hypothetically if there was a situation where you believed that you could not yield to a manned aircraft, it is the responsibility of the RPIC to terminate the flight immediately. This would be done by doing a CSC to shut the motors down in flight or Disarm command or emergency stop on a pixhawk based controller. If for instance there was a fly away and the aircraft was headed towards a school or airport, this would be another scenario for me to also terminate mid flight.

Inevitably you made the correct call of cancelling all flight operations right then and yielding to the aircraft by not being in the air. Crop dusters come in fast and low, but you will usually hear them coming. I have flown so many hours in some of the busiest airspace around, and tons of very active municipal airports flying near the approaches. I have never had a close call. Remember the drone descent is much quicker than other methods. It's easy to just descend when in doubt.

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

I'll just echo that crewed aircraft of all kinds are usually pretty noisy. I live close to an airport with an active class D, and not far from a highway. That means there are frequently aircraft (including business jets) nearby approaching or departing the airport, and helicopters monitoring traffic on the highway (not to mention sometimes the nearby high power lines). I am aware of the traffic patterns, and pay attention to the AirSense when flying my Air 2S (with the appropriate LAANC clearance). But I pretty much always hear the crewed aircraft approaching in plenty of time to descend or otherwise stay well clear before the AirSense tells me anything. I'm particularly at a loss as to how a helicopter can sneak up; those things, even the smallest ones, make a racket! I suppose a military jet might come by fast enough that I wouldn't have time to react, but I haven't seen one of those below 400 feet anywhere near me.

 

[spamgnome]

I agree completely. However, often, fields (at least fields around my area) are surrounded by dense forest. Therefore, unless it's a noisy aircraft, you're not going to be seeing the low flying airplane until it passes the trees. At that point, you just have to hope that you're either not in the way or you can move in time. That's just my reasoning and if there's a flaw someone please point it out to me.

The flaw in your argument is that manned aircraft ALWAYS have the right of way. If you see farmland, trees, etc..., then it's reasonable to assume that dusters might be around. Can you fly? Yes. Is it absolutely your fault if a manned plane hits your drone? Yes. One other related thing to keep in mind. Out in the open country it's also not safe to assume that the dusters will be ADS-B equipped. Should they be? Yes, definitely, but that's not reality.

 

[Trackerputnam]

I have had two F-16s fly below my mavic. I was flying a waterfall and transiting to the falls. There are no restrictions, or moa warnings in the area. This is on a mountain pass, where the lake makes a 1000’ drop. I was over the waterfall at 400’ when they came up the steep canyon, flying nap of the earth, at an angle a rocket would be proud of. They passed by below the drone, the turbulence nearly sending the drone down into the rocks below. I had no warning other than a few seconds. I could not hear them. I in fact was so surprised, I made no adjustments to the drone till they had passed, trying to stop the drone from crashing. Don’t fly there anymore.