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Drone closes busy airport

I didn't see... did they locate the UAS Operator?
 
A drone closed Brazil's busiest airport for 2 hours sunday night, flights were diverted and cancelled:

Yet again, another absurd overreaction by airport authorities and/or air traffic control. Shutting down a major airport, canceling flights, and diverting 35 other flights probably cost the airport, airlines, and angry passengers more than $1 million for this singular incident.

This very airport won't divert a single flight for a group of 50 vultures soaring in the approach/departure path (a daily occurrence), that could cause a potentially catastrophic accident, and yet will shut down the entire airport for the sighting of a single drone by two aircraft pilots.

I'm also a bit curious about the closure time. The article says the airport was closed from 8:15 pm to 10:40 pm. Sunset last night in São Paulo was at 7:30 pm local time. Just how in the world were two pilots from arriving aircraft able to spot and identify a tiny drone in complete darkness?
 
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Yet again, another absurd overreaction by airport authorities and/or air traffic control. Shutting down a major airport, canceling flights, diverting 35 other flights probably cost the airport, airlines, and angry passengers more than $1 million for this singular incident.

This airport won't divert a single flight for a group of 50 vultures soaring in the approach/departure path (a daily occurrence), that could cause a potentially catastrophic accident, and yet will shut down the entire airport for the sighting of a single drone by two aircraft pilots.

I'm also a bit curious about the closure time. The article says the airport was closed from 8:15 pm to 10:40 pm. Sunset last night in São Paulo was at 7:30 pm local time. Just how in the world were two pilots from arriving aircraft able to spot and identify a tiny drone in complete darkness?

Um, flashing lights? we all have them.
 
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Um, flashing lights? we all have them.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. If it isn't... I'd beg to differ. Against a background of thousands of other lights and flashing objects on approach at 140 knots? I have difficulty seeing my hovering Mavic against a plain starry background 300 feet away while I'm standing still, and I know where precisely where to look.

saopaulo.jpg
(GRU at night)​

Even if they could "positively ID" the drone and giving the pilots all the benefit of doubt, this reaction by the authorities is completely unnecessary.
 
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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. If it isn't... I'd beg to differ. Against a background of thousands of other lights and flashing objects on approach at 140 knots? I have difficulty seeing my hovering Mavic against a plain starry background 300 feet away while I'm standing still, and I know where precisely where to look.

View attachment 24784
(GRU at night)​

Even if they could "positively ID" the drone and giving the pilots all the benefit of doubt, this reaction by the authorities is completely unnecessary.
It wasn't sarcasm. I do agree that the threat is an overreaction, but there are many airports that have no city lights to confuse the view on final approach -- ie Manila, Boston, Vancouver, Denver, etc. Not all final approaches look like LAX.

But yeah, even if you saw the lights, you'd have zero time to confirm what it was. Nonetheless, the few commercial pilots I know have become a paranoid bunch -- not just about drones, but the potential for weaponized drones, and also morons on the ground that think it's fun to hit them in the eyes with a handheld laser.
 
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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. If it isn't... I'd beg to differ. Against a background of thousands of other lights and flashing objects on approach at 140 knots? I have difficulty seeing my hovering Mavic against a plain starry background 300 feet away while I'm standing still, and I know where precisely where to look.

View attachment 24784
(GRU at night)​

Even if they could "positively ID" the drone and giving the pilots all the benefit of doubt, this reaction by the authorities is completely unnecessary.


And also, it wasn't the airport in your picture, but rather the smaller regional airport south of Sao Paolo . Google Maps
No doubt equally lit up though.
 
It wasn't sarcasm. I do agree that the threat is an overreaction, but there are many airports that have no city lights to confuse the view on final approach -- ie Manila, Boston, Vancouver, Denver, etc. Not all final approaches look like LAX.

If you're approaching CGH from the northwest, you're flying over one of the largest, most urbanized metropolitan areas of the world. The "city" starts at about 19 miles from the runway. If you're approaching from the southeast, it's "only" 11 miles.

And yes, you're correct - the photo was from GRU not CGH. But I couldn't find a good photo of CGH on approach at night. Here's one of the airport during the day. You get the point.

2668549083_70291aa592_z.jpg
 
If you're approaching CGH from the northwest, you're flying over one of the largest, most urbanized metropolitan areas of the world. The "city" starts at about 19 miles from the runway. If you're approaching from the southeast, it's "only" 11 miles.

And yes, you're correct - the photo was from GRU not CGH. But I couldn't find a good photo of CGH on approach at night. Here's one of the airport during the day. You get the point.

View attachment 24786

Of course I do, and I said so originally. My point was/is that though it seems unlikely in this case, it's not necessarily unlikely in every case. As a mater of fact, I consider it much more likely that a pilot would spot a drone at night than during the day. Still pretty low odds over populated areas.

This isn't an argument. We agree with each other.
 
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Another video, this one from Youtube, people wondering if this could be the one responsible for all the trouble (seems to be a Mavic):
 
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I’m here in São Paulo now with my mavic, bad press for decent drone pilots here. Word on the street is that it was an inspire 1. My amigo sent me this pic. Dude will probably go to jail for a couple years.
 

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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. If it isn't... I'd beg to differ. Against a background of thousands of other lights and flashing objects on approach at 140 knots? I have difficulty seeing my hovering Mavic against a plain starry background 300 feet away while I'm standing still, and I know where precisely where to look.

I am guessing you have never sat in the cockpit of an airliner approaching a runway.
I think your view would be different if you had.
 
I am guessing you have never sat in the cockpit of an airliner approaching a runway. I think your view would be different if you had.

I actually have. Many times. I know that pilots think they are all-knowing, all seeing entities but they too are fallible. Pilots report seeing things all the time and are often wrong. My point was that they closed the airport 45 minutes after sunset, when it would have been completely dark. If it was still light out, there was a 30-minute delay between the sighting of the drone and the reaction to close the airport, and that in and of itself seems a little absurd.

Again, even if this was a confirmed sighting, the overreaction by the airport authorities in closing the airport, canceling flights, and diverting incoming flights necessitating the expenditure of countless reales and screwing with the lives/schedules of hundreds of people (passengers, crew, and countless other airline personnel), is a huge overreach. If the drone was an Inspire 2 as cited above, maximum flight time is 27 minutes. Why basically shut down an entire major metropolitan airport over a solitary drone? If a pilot gets "lazed" on approach at a major airport (a far more serious risk to pilots on approach), do we shut down all flights at that airdrome for hours at a time? Or do we pass on warnings to the next pilots and inform law enforcement to seek out the culprit?
 
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Your claim that you "know pilots think they are all knowing, all seeing entities" is ridiculous, so I'll leave it alone, other than to state that this has nothing to do with pilots.
Regarding the rest of your post, there is no way for local authorities to have any idea how much battery life is available. There is also know way for them to determine what intentions someone who is willingly flying that close to an airport has.
If you were the authority, you clearly would know exactly how to proceed.
The Brazilians are extremely cautious managers of their airspace, moreso since they were responsible for a midair years ago
You'd be much smarter.
Having been "lazed," including at Guarulhos,a few miles from this place, and having avoided free air balloons there, I would be more worried about hitting a drone.
Anyway, it seems you are the one who seems to be "all knowing."

By the way, its "Reals."
 
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Again, even if this was a confirmed sighting, the overreaction by the airport authorities in closing the airport, canceling flights, and diverting incoming flights necessitating the expenditure of countless reales and screwing with the lives/schedules of hundreds of people (passengers, crew, and countless other airline personnel), is a huge overreach. If the drone was an Inspire 2 as cited above, maximum flight time is 27 minutes. Why basically shut down an entire major metropolitan airport over a solitary drone? If a pilot gets "lazed" on approach at a major airport (a far more serious risk to pilots on approach), do we shut down all flights at that airdrome for hours at a time? Or do we pass on warnings to the next pilots and inform law enforcement to seek out the culprit?

I can tell you that when you're dealing with AVIATION and even more so with commercial carriers the agency will ALWAYS operate with an over abundance of caution. They don't know what DRONE was being used, it's capabilities, it's loiter time, or what the operator's intentions are. Unless the operator and drone are confiscated they have to assume the operator is still able to go up again and do "worse case" type of things.

I've seen a fairly large airport come to a screeching halt because someone "thought" they saw a deer on the grounds. The commercial aircraft that were put into a holding pattern were not happy and very vocal on how many Lbs of Av Fuel they were burning each and every minute "just in case a deer was on the field." None-the-less the airport was stopped until they were sure no furry animals were on the grounds.
 
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Your claim that you "know pilots think they are all knowing, all seeing entities" is ridiculous, so I'll leave it alone, other than to state that this has nothing to do with pilots.

It was a joke... It seems that you are a pilot of some type but are still unaware of the stereotype that pilots consider themselves "special". Heck, some of the best "pilots think they're God" jokes come from pilots themselves (the rest come from flight attendants and mechanics). Lighten up. No one is trying to offend pilots here. The point is only that they can (and do) make mistakes. And many pilots (and members of the media and public) nowadays are "drone" conscious, and every moving object in the air caught out of the corner of one's eye must be a drone. So despite the fact that the immediate reaction of anyone these days seems to be "it was a drone", I hesitate to come to that conclusion without some further evidence. And I simply posed the question about how the pilots, in those environmental conditions, could positively identify a drone. Or is that not a legitimate question?

Regarding the rest of your post, there is no way for local authorities to have any idea how much battery life is available.

Well, they do have Google don't they? If I type in "maximum flight time drone" into a Google search, the 1st result I get is this: Top 10 Drones with Longest Flight Time for 2017

which lists the top 10 drones with long flight times in 2017, showing the longest with 30 minutes and number 10 at 22 minutes. What I'm saying is that if they have a protocol in place for responding to the presence of a drone (shutting down the airfield), then they should have some information and education to back up their designated response. If they don't have a SOP in place, then this type of response is simply "on the fly" and there's no place for shutting down an entire airfield on such a whim.

There is also know way for them to determine what intentions someone who is willingly flying that close to an airport has.

I'd agree. But why would one automatically assume that the operator had ill intentions? Isn't it more likely that it's some idiot or novice that decided to fly somewhere they shouldn't? Operating a drone (even in the wrong place) without intentionally attacking a plane (the stories didn't mention that behavior) is far different than intentionally "lazing" an aircraft. Even then I wouldn't consider it terrorism, as you're suggesting. But either way, my point is still valid. People "lazing" an aircraft are intentionally doing it (we know this because it would be bizarre to accidentally shine a laser pointer at an aircraft on approach at night) and yet, even with this intentional "attack" on an aircraft, we don't shut down the airfield and divert flights for 2 hours. Why would we do it for a drone?

If you were the authority, you clearly would know exactly how to proceed. The Brazilians are extremely cautious managers of their airspace, moreso since they were responsible for a midair years ago
You'd be much smarter.

I didn't say I'm smarter. But rational risk analysis and risk mitigation in aviation is important. If this response to the mere sighting of a drone (confirmed or otherwise) was enacted each time any pilot saw a drone, civil aviation would come to a screeching halt. I'm suggesting that this reaction was way overblown and maybe we should think about this before doing the same thing the next time a drone is spotted anywhere near an airfield.

I admire the Brasilians and their risk mitigation efforts. I routinely work with the folks from CENIPA and ANAC and have even helped them during the past several years in their risk mitigation analysis and rule-making. But though they are ahead of the game in some areas, they are far behind in others. And this reaction was not a national protocol enacted by any aviation authority. It was simply a knee-jerk reaction by airport officials.

Having been "lazed," including at Guarulhos,a few miles from this place, and having avoided free air balloons there, I would be more worried about hitting a drone.

Do you believe that lasers and hot air balloons pose less of a risk to aviation than drones do? If so, I'd like to see your data. Risk mitigation should be determined by scientifically-based safety data, not public opinion or perceived threats. I've made this argument in another long-winded thread on this forum, but instead of restating it, I'll simply link to it and you can read for yourself:
Professional investigator concludes - "what's the fuss about?"
Professional investigator concludes - "what's the fuss about?"

The bottom line is that the data currently shows that drones pose almost no risk to aviation and even if the potential risk is assumed, the actions taken should still be proportionate to the actual risk to aviation (not some perceived threat coming from entities that haven't carefully examined the facts).

Anyway, it seems you are the one who seems to be "all knowing."

Again, I never claimed to be. But I do know more than nothing. And I have an opinion. And data. And like you, I am simply trying to express my opinion (and based on the facts as I know them). Aviation safety is my profession and I spend a lot of my time working through these very types of issues. Engaging in dialog is a good thing and I endeavor to avoid the reactionary steps taken by airport officials in just such circumstances. Shutting down airports after the sighting of a singular drone does no one any good. It doesn't make the public/passengers appreciate such efforts. They may tolerate it once or twice but if it was routine, the outrage would be palpable. It doesn't do well for drone operators either. It also doesn't help pilots or even airport officials address the real aviation risks in an appropriate manner.

By the way, its "Reals."

By the way, it's "no way" for them to determine, not "know way" for them to determine. :D
 
I can tell you that when you're dealing with AVIATION and even more so with commercial carriers the agency will ALWAYS operate with an over abundance of caution.

Oh... if that were true. I dream of this happening one day but until then, I will find myself faced off against airport, airline, and aviation officials on a routine basis. If this were true, aviation safety people like myself would be loved and adored by people in the aviation community. (We're not). We get eye rolls and groans every time we enter a room and though they do eventually accede to us at times, they often do so begrudgingly. Airlines have very different motivations, and safety is only one of them (and usually lower on the totem pole than several others).

I've seen a fairly large airport come to a screeching halt because someone "thought" they saw a deer on the grounds.

If you want to get anecdotal, then I can recount dozens of times that I've seen airfields with herds of deer on the airfield continue to operate normally, despite the fact that some may have already crossed a runway just several minutes earlier... or pilots land through enormous flocks of geese or other birds with only words of caution from the tower, if that... or airlines refuse to alter their flight schedules into/out of an airfield with a known wildlife threat that crosses the airport's flight paths on a routine and predictable schedule. Or... etc.

Does it happen? Sure. Is it the norm? I'm sorry to say that it is not.

The commercial aircraft that were put into a holding pattern were not happy and very vocal on how many Lbs of Av Fuel they were burning each and every minute "just in case a deer was on the field." None-the-less the airport was stopped until they were sure no furry animals were on the grounds.

That's exactly right. And just how long do you think they would tolerate this type of risk mitigation if it happened each time a "furry animal" was potentially spotted? Not very long I would surmise. And the same goes for a drone. I wonder how many complaints the airport received after this incident - from irate passengers that had to overnight in the area (and without compensation, as the news stories noted). Or the airline officials that had to reroute and reschedule their planes and crews. And re-accommodate their customers. And the pilots and flight crews that went illegal or had to deal with landing at a different airfield than they were scheduled for, or were delayed in getting home. And the rampers that had to stay late into the night to deal with the returning flights that had been diverted or cancelled. The knock-on effects of this were surely enormous.
 
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