We all know that many people do things with their drones that are "not allowed". All the time. Some even brag about it.
Drone may have caused B-17 and P-63 collision at Wings Over Dallas
- Thread starter The Droning Company
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There's no way to tell what that is, where it was or if it was endangering the plane from that image.
If that's a drone and it's close enough to the plane to collide, it's much bigger that any Mavic.
Compare its size to the plane's cockpit.
A Mavic at that distance wouldn't be visible at all.
There's no way to tell if the mystery spot is close to the plane at all.
It could be a couple of hundred feet closer to the camera, or it might be a full size plane a thousand feet further away from the plane.
A suggestion that this shows the cause of the crash is highly unlikely.
DARKSeifer
Well-Known Member
Three things:
I'd say it's fake.
- That spot appears from nowhere, and wasn't present on previous frames (either fake of high speed, that means, enough speed to rush through several frames).
- If that spot would be a drone it's size would be quite massive, at least like an Inspire.
- Big drones flying at high speeds? To cover that distance from out of FOV to inside the FOV, skipping frames your speed must be way over the capabilities of any commercial drone.
I'd say it's fake.
Not unless you know how far away the object is.
And it's impossible to tell if it's near the plane, closer or further away.
DARKSeifer
Well-Known Member
There are lots of ways to get that info, for example the sensor size and size of the plane, magnification is everything.
There's a whole branch of forensics through imagery, and for example, you could end up with a 3D model representation of that crash by combining all the camera data from all points of view available (cameras that got the incident).
Just get the speed and size of that dot is piece of cake for anyone with the original footage. you know the size of the sensor, the size of the plane, the focal length, the framerate of the video... you need nothing more, really.
But you cannot tell if it's a small object fairly close to the camera or a larger object near the plane or an even larger object much further away.
SmilingOgre
Well-Known Member
For that matter it could be dust on the sensor. I have had dust on a sensor that will expose itself exactly like that against a blue sky. It will seemingly come out of nowhere.
DARKSeifer
Well-Known Member
Of course you can, specially if you have the data of more than one camera, which seems to be the case.
Digital imagery allows for a ton of math to be applied and you can go as deep as you want, that's the reason why photogrammetry is quite a thing these days or astrophotography shows us the shape and composition of the universe around.
Photography is math and math is everything. If it's a spot of dust, if it's real, if it's fake, the numbers can tell.
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An examination of the camera sensor itself would very easily and quickly determine if it was a sensor issue. The NTSB hopefully has gotten the cell phone in question and done that analysis.
Horrific incident. We read about it over here and it was an awful outcome. Would there not be a no-fly ring around the airfield enforced also by dji as well as the FAA through LAANC and local ATC? I clearly don’t know enough about the circumstances but I would never have thought of launching a drone anywhere near the location.
Highly unlikely it's a drone. So much wrong forensically with the video. The spot moves quickly between frames, much faster than a drone.
Also, if by some horrible chance it was, it will be incredibly easy for the NTSB to find out.
First, there will be drone debris around the area this supposedly happened. And based on the number of videos of this horrific incident, it will be incredibly easy for the NTSB to triangulate where this happened.
Second, unless completely erased by fire, there will also be microscopic plastic residue on the prop.
Third, the "news organization" reporting this has a whopping 300 subscribers. Not exactly the bastion of the industry.
If this was an actual story, we'd see this on every new outlet in the nation.
Nonsensical at best. Highly, highly unlikely!
Also, if by some horrible chance it was, it will be incredibly easy for the NTSB to find out.
First, there will be drone debris around the area this supposedly happened. And based on the number of videos of this horrific incident, it will be incredibly easy for the NTSB to triangulate where this happened.
Second, unless completely erased by fire, there will also be microscopic plastic residue on the prop.
Third, the "news organization" reporting this has a whopping 300 subscribers. Not exactly the bastion of the industry.
If this was an actual story, we'd see this on every new outlet in the nation.
Nonsensical at best. Highly, highly unlikely!
spsphotos
Well-Known Member
I agree with Vic. And the analysis from the two PROFESSIONALS seems to coincide with what I saw. The p-63 pilot was out of position, going too fast and blind to the B-17 in its path. I think in the end the report will say pilot error and no mention of a drone. Not to mention someone would almost have to have seen a drone approaching before the accident.
This was simply a loss of situational awareness by the P-63 pilot. For some reason, he went belly up to the B-17, and lost sight/situational awareness. In USAF pilot training, we were trained to NEVER go belly up to another aircraft in a rejoin. Not implying there was a rejoin going on. The closure speed of the P-63 was way too high to suggest that. But, the belly up, loss of sight/situational awareness is very evident.
Loss of situational awareness is basic to flying anything. It can happen to anyone, regardless of experience level, when task saturation occurs. The P-63 pilot was highly experienced.
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I can't find that object before during or after the same cloud pattern. It hit one second after.
If you want to have some fun, go to that YT page and engage nathanbond8165 in conversation. He's clueless. 
If you look at the video of the crash you can see that drones is very unlikely to be blamed.
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HoozierDroneDaddy
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Allowed makes no difference. There are Mom & Pop/Kids who have no ideas of the rules or dangers and just want to get a good video/photo. And there are those that don't care about the rules/dangers and want to get their views on YouTube.
I can't see this being caused by a drone. I flew formation at shows and have flown at both Oshkosh and Sun n fun over the years and there are extremely strict and tight rules when you fly at the show. Each morning there is a very early meeting with the Airboss and everything is gone over and over and over for each day's events.
Even if they are the same thing each flight session, you still have to go over them again and again. You are given a number and carry a coloured briefing card of each day's briefing sheet. The colour changes every morning. If you don't show that coloured card when you are ready to take off, with your number clearly showing, you won't be allowed to take off. That way they know all who take to the air have attended the briefing for that flight being undertaken.
When you fly in a group, you never lose sight of anyone in your group and you have a position to keep and hold during that flight, especially if joining up along the flight path. If you do happen to make a mistake and lose sight you should leave the group by travelling where you can see, such as up and/or to the side and up, that way you won't be flying into anyone. Unless you lost sight of the group above (had you been joining from a lower altitude to the group above you), then you would go down and off to the side. From there if the situation allows, and you can see everyone again, you can rejoin.
From what I saw of the video, it looked like the P-63 pilot might have been hurrying to get in position as he joined the B-17. The problem is you can't just step on the brakes to slow down if you are hurrying to catch up to a position. He might have been getting close to the plane in front of him and the only way to slow yourself down (in general) is to extend your turn somewhat to give time for the aircraft in front of you to gain some distance and get back into a safe formation.
The one place you cannot see when flying a low wing aircraft, is going to be below you and somewhat in front of and below you. Therefore, you try to keep bank angle shallow when joining and ideally you join from below and come up to a level position. That way you can see everything. At a flight briefing you go over landmarks that you are to watch for and pass over at turning points and approaches, to keep all aircraft at safe positions, because each one will have something a little different to be watching for. That keeps separation in your particular pattern being flown. There is more to it than just this, but I'm trying to keep it simple.
From looking at the video, you can see that the P-63 pilot is coming around to join on the wing of the B-17. The B-17 pilot can't really be looking over his left should and behind, to watch for joining aircraft, because he has to be sure to fly his predetermined pattern and keep his position and altitude. Therefore, a joining from the left low wing aircraft is going to have no visibility of an aircraft to his right and slightly in front, unless he is below that aircraft.
From what I could tell, it looks like the P-63 pilot joined at the same altitude and made a slightly too wide turn which took him right into the poor B-17 path, rather than just off to the left of the B-17. Had the P-63 pilot just been down 20-30ft from the B-17's altitude, he probably would have been able to see the B-17 and realized he was on a collision course and could have done something about it.
There was no abrupt turns or stalls etc. that have been stated and anyone who does fly a plane (sitting in it, that is) can see what was happening here. There have been many cases of aircraft converging on each other and crashing, even when flying in a straight line. The worst is when you have a high wing below and a low wing above, on approach to the same runway at slightly different approach angles. The high wing pilot can't see direct above, nor above and behind them and the low wing pilot cannot see below and in front of, nor directly below them. When these two aircraft types are flying down the same line and slowly descending on finals, they can easily fly into each other's path. This has happened on numerous occasions, in years past, at airports around the world.
I doubt if a drone or even a bird strike would have caused this terrible accident, it was simply a sad case of a low wing pilot not seeing what he was approaching while in a turn, joining up with another aircraft at the same altitude. Very tragic.
Even if they are the same thing each flight session, you still have to go over them again and again. You are given a number and carry a coloured briefing card of each day's briefing sheet. The colour changes every morning. If you don't show that coloured card when you are ready to take off, with your number clearly showing, you won't be allowed to take off. That way they know all who take to the air have attended the briefing for that flight being undertaken.
When you fly in a group, you never lose sight of anyone in your group and you have a position to keep and hold during that flight, especially if joining up along the flight path. If you do happen to make a mistake and lose sight you should leave the group by travelling where you can see, such as up and/or to the side and up, that way you won't be flying into anyone. Unless you lost sight of the group above (had you been joining from a lower altitude to the group above you), then you would go down and off to the side. From there if the situation allows, and you can see everyone again, you can rejoin.
From what I saw of the video, it looked like the P-63 pilot might have been hurrying to get in position as he joined the B-17. The problem is you can't just step on the brakes to slow down if you are hurrying to catch up to a position. He might have been getting close to the plane in front of him and the only way to slow yourself down (in general) is to extend your turn somewhat to give time for the aircraft in front of you to gain some distance and get back into a safe formation.
The one place you cannot see when flying a low wing aircraft, is going to be below you and somewhat in front of and below you. Therefore, you try to keep bank angle shallow when joining and ideally you join from below and come up to a level position. That way you can see everything. At a flight briefing you go over landmarks that you are to watch for and pass over at turning points and approaches, to keep all aircraft at safe positions, because each one will have something a little different to be watching for. That keeps separation in your particular pattern being flown. There is more to it than just this, but I'm trying to keep it simple.
From looking at the video, you can see that the P-63 pilot is coming around to join on the wing of the B-17. The B-17 pilot can't really be looking over his left should and behind, to watch for joining aircraft, because he has to be sure to fly his predetermined pattern and keep his position and altitude. Therefore, a joining from the left low wing aircraft is going to have no visibility of an aircraft to his right and slightly in front, unless he is below that aircraft.
From what I could tell, it looks like the P-63 pilot joined at the same altitude and made a slightly too wide turn which took him right into the poor B-17 path, rather than just off to the left of the B-17. Had the P-63 pilot just been down 20-30ft from the B-17's altitude, he probably would have been able to see the B-17 and realized he was on a collision course and could have done something about it.
There was no abrupt turns or stalls etc. that have been stated and anyone who does fly a plane (sitting in it, that is) can see what was happening here. There have been many cases of aircraft converging on each other and crashing, even when flying in a straight line. The worst is when you have a high wing below and a low wing above, on approach to the same runway at slightly different approach angles. The high wing pilot can't see direct above, nor above and behind them and the low wing pilot cannot see below and in front of, nor directly below them. When these two aircraft types are flying down the same line and slowly descending on finals, they can easily fly into each other's path. This has happened on numerous occasions, in years past, at airports around the world.
I doubt if a drone or even a bird strike would have caused this terrible accident, it was simply a sad case of a low wing pilot not seeing what he was approaching while in a turn, joining up with another aircraft at the same altitude. Very tragic.
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mobilehomer
Well-Known Member
Something else to remember, these are war birds, not some Cessna or Piper Cub. They were engineered to withstand damage from attack. A drone is about like a mosquito to these planes. Pilot error, plain, simple and tragic.
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