Educate Me about Apple ProRes

[moldorf]

I'm curious....what advantages are there for capturing video in Apple RoRes formats? I get that the data rates are huge and probably extreme quality. But you'd still have to render them into a format that plays on TV's and monitors.

for instance, on a Mavic 3, does ProRes--->4K MP4 yield noticeably better quality video than simply recording in 4K MP4? And what video editing apps deal with Apple ProRes? Does DaVinci? And can you watch ProRes on a windows 10 PC. I think I read you can if you import a codec, but I'm not sure. Does rendering ProRes to a different format take a long time

is it only professional videographers that can benefit from ProRes and is it better than Raw? or approximately the same?

 

[TwoSticks]

The main advantage is for those that use the format with other cameras so everything is consistent. Stand alone its not going to be the difference maker. Large internal storage on that unit is nice but the format itself, like you said, will at some point in the process be converted to something else. Production groups have an easier time if everything is consistant and ProRes is something a higher end group might be using.

 

[SmilingOgre]

Production houses that use Final Cut Pro prefer prores. It is native so to speak. It's a very fast edit with little color grading involved. All of your well known NLE's will handle prores including Davinci Resolve. 4:2:2 prores has become somewhat of a standard in the broadcast industry. Regarding quality reference point is important. Compared to 8bit H.264/H.265 non prores profiles it is an upgrade to my eye. Slight upgrade but an upgrade nonetheless. When compared to dlog it's iffy to me if it is any better. When compared to raw footage it is a definite downgrade. I have not used prores 4:4:4 raw so I can't comment on that.

 

[brett8883]

I'm curious....what advantages are there for capturing video in Apple RoRes formats? I get that the data rates are huge and probably extreme quality. But you'd still have to render them into a format that plays on TV's and monitors.

for instance, on a Mavic 3, does ProRes--->4K MP4 yield noticeably better quality video than simply recording in 4K MP4? And what video editing apps deal with Apple ProRes? Does DaVinci? And can you watch ProRes on a windows 10 PC. I think I read you can if you import a codec, but I'm not sure. Does rendering ProRes to a different format take a long time

is it only professional videographers that can benefit from ProRes and is it better than Raw? or approximately the same?

TLDR: it only matters if doing intensive editing. The final product without editing will be the same.

H.254 and H.264 use both intra frame compression as well as inter frame compression. This means that not only are the pixels of each frame compressed (intra frame), entire frames or parts of frames are compressed(inter frame) as well. Particularly the inter frame compression can lead to motion artifacts because not all the individual frames are recorded. If you’ve ever seen compression artifacts from very detailed and fast moving scenes this is do to inter frame compression.

ProRes in the other hand uses only intra frame compression. Every single frame of the video is recorded and each frame is individually compressed completely independently from the other frames.

Also, generally speaking the less compression there is more you can push and pull the color grade so no visual difference before color grading but after color grading there will be. Also, even if you can’t visually notice the motion artifacts from inter frame compression, having all the frames makes visual effects work much easier to do. An extremely common vfx tool is motion tracking where the computer analyzes the footage and will track a particular object in the video as it moves through the frame. The computer is usually following just a few pixels and if artifacts appear where the object is suppose to be it can throw off the process.

ProRes isn’t per se especially different from other intra frame codecs but it is a standard that is widely used and program developers give a high priority to making sure their program is is optimized for it. Another benefit is that ProRes comes is several levels of compression that are simple to understand and consistent.

ProRes 4:4:4:4 XQ is practically lossless. HUGE files sizes! Advanced transparency support.

ProRes 4:4:4:4: Slightly more compressed (but still huge) but still holds full color information for each pixel. Ideal for vfx, green screen, color masking work, and the most extreme color grading. Comparable to raw formats

ProRes 422 HQ and ProRes 422 : Most commonly used, strike a good balance between file size, color grade ability, and vfx. Considerably smaller files than 4:4:4:4 with very little visual difference, however, colors information is lossy compressed. Comparable to lossy compressed raw formats

After your footage is finished editing you will have to output as h.264 or h.265 so unless you use the benefits of ProRes above in editing you will not see any difference in the final product.

 

[brett8883]

Just to add to my very long explanation above, the 1TB SSD on the Mavic Cine models holds about 28 minutes of ProRes footage so if that’s out of your league storage capacity wise then no need to look at the cine models

 

[moldorf]

TLDR: it only matters if doing intensive editing. The final product without editing will be the same.

H.254 and H.264 use both intra frame compression as well as inter frame compression. This means that not only are the pixels of each frame compressed (intra frame), entire frames or parts of frames are compressed(inter frame) as well. Particularly the inter frame compression can lead to motion artifacts because not all the individual frames are recorded. If you’ve ever seen compression artifacts from very detailed and fast moving scenes this is do to inter frame compression.

ProRes in the other hand uses only intra frame compression. Every single frame of the video is recorded and each frame is individually compressed completely independently from the other frames.

Also, generally speaking the less compression there is more you can push and pull the color grade so no visual difference before color grading but after color grading there will be. Also, even if you can’t visually notice the motion artifacts from inter frame compression, having all the frames makes visual effects work much easier to do. An extremely common vfx tool is motion tracking where the computer analyzes the footage and will track a particular object in the video as it moves through the frame. The computer is usually following just a few pixels and if artifacts appear where the object is suppose to be it can throw off the process.

ProRes isn’t per se especially different from other intra frame codecs but it is a standard that is widely used and program developers give a high priority to making sure their program is is optimized for it. Another benefit is that ProRes comes is several levels of compression that are simple to understand and consistent.

ProRes 4:4:4:4 XQ is practically lossless. HUGE files sizes! Advanced transparency support.

ProRes 4:4:4:4: Slightly more compressed (but still huge) but still holds full color information for each pixel. Ideal for vfx, green screen, color masking work, and the most extreme color grading. Comparable to raw formats

ProRes 422 HQ and ProRes 422 : Most commonly used, strike a good balance between file size, color grade ability, and vfx. Considerably smaller files than 4:4:4:4 with very little visual difference, however, colors information is lossy compressed. Comparable to lossy compressed raw formats

After your footage is finished editing you will have to output as h.264 or h.265 so unless you use the benefits of ProRes above in editing you will not see any difference in the final product.

thanks for the explanation...even though I was lost a few times...

I don't intend to record in ProRes as it would be just another layer of stuff I'd have to learn. I spend enough time processing my H-264 and H-265 4K MP4 drone video. I can end up with a finished 5 minute video of a drone flight that I spent 90 minutes working on. Yeah...I don't really know what I'm doing

 

[brett8883]

thanks for the explanation...even though I was lost a few times...

I don't intend to record in ProRes as it would be just another layer of stuff I'd have to learn. I spend enough time processing my H-264 and H-265 4K MP4 drone video. I can end up with a finished 5 minute video of a drone flight that I spent 90 minutes working on. Yeah...I don't really know what I'm doing

The downside to ProRes is really just the storage requirements. You need lots of fast storage for it. It makes editing easier not harder

 

[rhberg]

Raw photo files allow me to bring out the best. .likewise, the ProRes files coming out of my m3p Cine produce much better imagery in post (I use FCPX) than I have ever gotten with other codecs. I love it!

 

[brett8883]

Raw photo files allow me to bring out the best. .likewise, the ProRes files coming out of my m3p Cine produce much better imagery in post (I use FCPX) than I have ever gotten with other codecs. I love it!

Just for the record ProRes is more akin to Tiff files than Raw files if using a still photo files as a comparison. There are raw video formats including ProRes Raw but not on the Mavic Series.

ProRes has already been “baked” from the raw image data just like h.264 or h.265 so it’s not like a raw file. However, ProRes retains enough image data that you can still make large adjustments to it without it falling apart. Not as much as raw typically but much more than h264 or h265.

 

[LoneHermit]

Hi, I am debating which drone to purchase, the Mavic PRO 3, or the PRO 3 Cine. At roughly a $1000 difference in price I'm trying to find out if it's worth the extra expense. I'd appreciate laymen responses as I'm a complete novice. Technical jargon would be useless to me at this point.

I have a use in mind but don't want to state that use here. I can say its main purpose will be in creating content for social media, whether Youtube, Rumble, Instagram, TikTok, etc. and will include a lot of low light footage and potentially night footage.

I may eventually offer photographs from the footage, is there any benefit at all for that purpose? Concerning video or still images, will viewers notice a difference, or is most of the benefit on the back end for processing?

I see cine will capture up to one billion colors, but humans can only perceive around one million. Is that just marketing hype?

Thanks in advance!

 

[rhberg]

Video files acquired using the Apple ProRes codec sample much more data than conventional codecs, so they are very large in size. This may not be needed in those apps you list. Nevertheless I use PreRes that is stock in iPhone 13 (and others) and in my M3PC because the color is fantastic and the imagery looks great. It doesn't offer an advantage in low light captures but post processing likely will be enhanced for bringing out shadow detail. Any advantages in post relate to what is improved in post processing rather than in the initial capture. The improved color depends on post processing to bring out those colors from the plethora of those in the original capture.

 

[SmilingOgre]

I'm curious....what advantages are there for capturing video in Apple RoRes formats? I get that the data rates are huge and probably extreme quality. But you'd still have to render them into a format that plays on TV's and monitors.

for instance, on a Mavic 3, does ProRes--->4K MP4 yield noticeably better quality video than simply recording in 4K MP4? And what video editing apps deal with Apple ProRes? Does DaVinci? And can you watch ProRes on a windows 10 PC. I think I read you can if you import a codec, but I'm not sure. Does rendering ProRes to a different format take a long time

is it only professional videographers that can benefit from ProRes and is it better than Raw? or approximately the same?

My experience with ProRes is meh. Many production houses use Final Cut Pro and ProRes is native to that NLE. ProRes does come in a number of different flavors. ProRes 4:4:4 is a form of raw that many cinematographers do like. I don't believe the Mavic provides this codec. I believe the Mavic provides 4:2:2 10bit. This is a decent codec but I prefer DJI D-log. ProRes 4:2:2 in Final Cut Pro requires little color grading providing a fast turn around time for a production house. Davinci Resolve will handle either ProRes or D-log as a native file. At the end of the day if your delivery destination is a form of social media nothing will be gained by using ProRes. Social media mangles files to maintain a low bitrate for streaming. I often cut d-log from the Mavic Pro Classic with Blackmagic B-raw and Canon Raw light with great results and both the B-raw and Canon Raw light far exceed the quality produced by ProRes with the exception of possibly 4:4:4 ProRes which is a form of Cinema DNG Raw.

 

[Meta4]

At roughly a $1000 difference in price I'm trying to find out if it's worth the extra expense.
......
its main purpose will be in creating content for social media, whether Youtube, Rumble, Instagram, TikTok, etc. and will include a lot of low light footage and potentially night footage.

For your purposes (and most other users here), it's not worth the expense.
It would be more than overkill.