Flying in London - help me understand the zones

[nathankw]

I'm a new DJI mini 2 owner in London - looking forward to the freedom that 1st Jan should give us!
But, of course, we'll still have to fly safe and comply with all the restricted zones so I'm trying to understand them.

Specifically I'm trying to work out if I can fly in my garden (with neighbors on side) which is in Kilburn, Zone 2 NW, London.
More generally, how do I interpret the zones on the different info sources.

So first the DJI app. It warns me I'm in Class D airspace but once I accept the warning it'll let me fly here.

Then I've checked NoFlyDrones.co.uk
That shows the restricted zone R157 which covers central London but I'm outside that.

It shows no restrictions where I am - so that looks like good news.

Then if I check the NATS Drone Assist App it shows the same R157 zone which I'm not in.
But it also shows a larger restricted area which it simply calls The Specified Area.
It says "the flight of aircraft within this area is restricted. We recommend you do not operate your drone here. If you do, please exercise extreme caution and abide by the CAA Dronecode".
It also shows the very large London CTR which again recommends extreme caution.
So that seems to be saying I can fly here but to be very careful.

Then I checked the Airmap App.
That labels the area I'm in as R160 (The Specified Area) but gives no details of what it means (or if it does I can't find it).



Lastly I check the dronescene.co.uk website.

That also has me in a restricted area and says this:

Category
Restricted Area

Summary
Red zones are regulated high-risk areas and operation of your drone may be hazardous or prohibited.

Restricted Area
The flight of aircraft within this area is restricted in accordance with certain specified conditions. Notes attached to this area provide additional information. Danger, Prohibited and Restricted Areas are defined according to ICAO International Standards. Regulations governing the flight of drones vary from country-to-country, therefore these areas are included for your information. It is your responsibility to check the applicability of any local, state and/or national laws and regulations which may permit or otherwise restrict the operation of your drone in this area. Unless regulations in your region explicitly permit the operation of your drone in this area, we recommend you do not operate your drone here.

So it's bloomin' confusing that some sources of info have me in a restricted area and others don't.
And I can't find anywhere what the actual rules for the R160 area are.

Can anyone help me out?
Will I be able to legally fly in my local area (after 1st Jan)?
And more generally, what's the simplest way to actually find out the situation in a specific area?

 

[Lastrexking]

Ignore anything other than NATS Drone app. They provide the data the CAA use as airspace regulators.
No Fly Drones has no legal jurisdiction.

 

[nathankw]

Ignore anything other than NATS Drone app. They provide the data the CAA use as airspace regulators.
No Fly Drones has no legal jurisdiction.

Good advice - but I don't find the NATS app very clear.

As above, it says I'm in a specfied area with flight restrictions - but doesn't say what those restrictions are.

The zone covering central london is clear - the NATS app says "Drone No Fly Zone".

But the larger one is much more vague which I'm hoping means drones are allowed (subject to the drone code).

 

[nathankw]

So I’ve finally got some more info on this. I sent a message to Altitude Angel (who make the official NATS Drone Assist App) asking about the London area

This is their reply:

Hi Nathan. In most cases, drones are able to operate within “The Specified Area” around London, provided they obey the drone code and no other flight restrictions are in effect. Where applicable, you may also need to seek permission from landowners. Hope this helps.

There are the 3 no fly zones (Hyde Park, City of London and Docklands) and of course zones around the airport and heliports.

But other than that looks like London flying is allowed (subject to the new drone code)

 

[phutureproof]

Good to read your findings. I too am new to this, so am soaking up as much info as I can. I'm in Oxford but will likely be visiting several places in the coming months.

 

[JayV8]

Hi all, sorry to revive an oldish thread.

I'm new to the hobby but considering a specific flight (with a DJI mini 2) at a specific location in central London. I'm doing my very best to understand the new 2021 rules and I have zero interest in breaking them, so I want to be certain before I make any decisions. Any guidance you can give will be so appreciated.

Background assumptions are as follows (please correct me if any of this is wrong). The mini 2 is sub-250g flying weight and currently sold in a "legacy" configuration without MTOM specified, so is treated as a C0 craft, I believe. I would be operating an "open" category flight - within VLOS, sub 120m altitude etc. I understand this would clear me for all sub-categories of open flight - A1, A2 and A3 - obviously the main issue will be ensuring I avoid overflying crowds, but I would be extremely vigilant about this, and it is made somewhat easier during lockdown (much as we all wish that were not the case). I will be registered - technically, for a flight on the above basis, I believe I only need the operator ID and not the flyer ID, though I am more than happy to get both.

Like you, I have checked the various sources on airspace restrictions and I find the area I want to operate in is covered by the "specified area" according to the NATS data. Based on the above, it seems the "specified area" is ok, right? I will most likely triple-check with NATS myself but this seems like the right conclusion from what you've been told, Nathan.

Two other questions - firstly, does it make any difference that I would be very close to the edge of one of the stricter "no fly zones" - for me the zone in question is R158 (City of London). I would obviously be careful to keep away from it, but I worry that as I am very close I cannot be completely sure I won't go anywhere near it. Do we think that it is acceptable just to be very vigilant and avoid any risk of windy conditions leading to unintentional straying? I can't move the area I'd like to fly in, but I'm hoping it is as simple as you are either "in" or "out" of the zone, and even 1m "out" is ok.

Secondly, I also see I would be in the "Controlled Traffic Region" for City of London airport, but not anywhere near the relevant "restricted" zone - I understand this is ok, but shout if you have any thoughts. I have looked at the DJI interactive map and it seems to think I would be able to take-off where I want to.

 

[nathankw]

Hi all, sorry to revive an oldish thread.

I'm new to the hobby but considering a specific flight (with a DJI mini 2) at a specific location in central London. I'm doing my very best to understand the new 2021 rules and I have zero interest in breaking them, so I want to be certain before I make any decisions. Any guidance you can give will be so appreciated.

Background assumptions are as follows (please correct me if any of this is wrong). The mini 2 is sub-250g flying weight and currently sold in a "legacy" configuration without MTOM specified, so is treated as a C0 craft, I believe. I would be operating an "open" category flight - within VLOS, sub 120m altitude etc. I understand this would clear me for all sub-categories of open flight - A1, A2 and A3 - obviously the main issue will be ensuring I avoid overflying crowds, but I would be extremely vigilant about this, and it is made somewhat easier during lockdown (much as we all wish that were not the case). I will be registered - technically, for a flight on the above basis, I believe I only need the operator ID and not the flyer ID, though I am more than happy to get both.

Like you, I have checked the various sources on airspace restrictions and I find the area I want to operate in is covered by the "specified area" according to the NATS data. Based on the above, it seems the "specified area" is ok, right? I will most likely triple-check with NATS myself but this seems like the right conclusion from what you've been told, Nathan.

Two other questions - firstly, does it make any difference that I would be very close to the edge of one of the stricter "no fly zones" - for me the zone in question is R158 (City of London). I would obviously be careful to keep away from it, but I worry that as I am very close I cannot be completely sure I won't go anywhere near it. Do we think that it is acceptable just to be very vigilant and avoid any risk of windy conditions leading to unintentional straying? I can't move the area I'd like to fly in, but I'm hoping it is as simple as you are either "in" or "out" of the zone, and even 1m "out" is ok.

Secondly, I also see I would be in the "Controlled Traffic Region" for City of London airport, but not anywhere near the relevant "restricted" zone - I understand this is ok, but shout if you have any thoughts. I have looked at the DJI interactive map and it seems to think I would be able to take-off where I want to.

As far as I know my previous statement about the larger R160 specifies area still holds - it's legal for drones.
The same applies for the CTR.

Of course you now have the issue that going out to fly your drone is against lockdown rules (unless perhaps flying for work - though you then need insurance).

As for the R158 - my understanding is you're legal 1m outside the zone and illegal 1m inside. So if you're planning to go right up to the edge.... well that has to be your call.
Strangely, although the Hyde Park NFZ is geofanced on the DJI map - the City of London zone may not be. So you can't rely on your drone to stay out of there.

Personally I'd be very wary of flying that close to a NFZ - but if you have a good need to then that's a matter for you.
Do let me know how you get on and if you get any more official info.

 

[JayV8]

Thanks - only update I have so far is that the secondary legislation for zone R158 is pretty clear that the zone is strictly limited to straight lines between coordinates and so I think it is correct that you can go as close to the lines as you want as long as you do not cross them - link here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2004/2092/pdfs/uksi_20042092_en.pdf.

 

[nathankw]

Good find! Did you find the legislation relating to R160 (The Specified Area)?

 

[JayV8]

It took me far, far longer than it should have, but yes I found the legislative basis for the "specified area" - it is the Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Specified Area) Regulations 2005 - see The Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Specified Area) Regulations 2005.

I believe this secondary legislation is still in force, though there is some discussion on other forums about whether it has been made obsolete by a more general CAA requirement for helicopters not to fly in any highly populous area unless they can land clear in the event of engine failure.

So this all seems somewhat clear - the only issue I have is that most of the UK/EU definitions of "helicopter" are along thse lines: "‘Helicopter’ means a heavier-than-air aircraft supported in flight chiefly by the reactions of the air on one or more power-driven rotors on substantially vertical axes." So, technically, although it is clearly not the CAA's intention to treat drones as helicopters, I cannot see why they do not fall within the definition. I'll keep digging.

 

[nathankw]

It took me far, far longer than it should have, but yes I found the legislative basis for the "specified area" - it is the Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Specified Area) Regulations 2005 - see The Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Specified Area) Regulations 2005.

I believe this secondary legislation is still in force, though there is some discussion on other forums about whether it has been made obsolete by a more general CAA requirement for helicopters not to fly in any highly populous area unless they can land clear in the event of engine failure.

So this all seems somewhat clear - the only issue I have is that most of the UK/EU definitions of "helicopter" are along thse lines: "‘Helicopter’ means a heavier-than-air aircraft supported in flight chiefly by the reactions of the air on one or more power-driven rotors on substantially vertical axes." So, technically, although it is clearly not the CAA's intention to treat drones as helicopters, I cannot see why they do not fall within the definition. I'll keep digging.

Interesting. Good work.

It would be great to get a definitive ruling on whether UAVs can fly in the Specified Area if only to have something to wave at anyone who stops us.

As I mentioned, I did tweet the CAA asking this and they passed the buck, and NATS haven't replied to me.

If anyone else fancies asking either the CAA or NATS - maybe you'll have more luck?

 

[JayV8]

I have tried an enquiry with the CAA but I'm not hugely optimistic about getting a helpful response any time soon.

What contact did you use for NATS / Altitude Angel?

 

[nathankw]

I have tried an enquiry with the CAA but I'm not hugely optimistic about getting a helpful response any time soon.

What contact did you use for NATS / Altitude Angel?

Just via twitter. Altitude Angel replies saying you can email them on [email protected]

 

[JayV8]

I have now had a somewhat helpful response from Altitude Angel, which includes in relevant part the following:

"Our interpretation from the information available (note: that the CAA is the primary authority on the subject) is that R160 defines specific restrictions on single engine helicopter operations, such that they “shall not fly over this area below such a height as would enable it, in event of an engine failure, to land clear of the area”.

The definition of a helicopter, like all aircraft, is made by the International Civil Aviation Organisation, (reference Annex 7 to the International Convention on Civil Aviation), as “A heavier-than-air aircraft supported in flight chiefly by the reactions of the air on one or more power-driven rotors on substantially vertical axes”. However, the applicability of this to unmanned aircraft as variously defined in CAP 722D “ Unmanned Aircraft System Operations in UK Airspace – Master Glossary and Abbreviations” is something that would need to be clarified by the CAA.

Regardless of the interpretation, please also note that from the map, there are specific ‘no drone’ areas within R160 such as R157, R158, R159 as well as airport FRZ’s which specify additional restrictions for certain areas and where permission is again explicitly required. Over and above these, of course, there is still the requirement to fly safely and legally as stipulated in the Air Navigation Order (reference CAA CAP393) and explained in the range of guidance documents published by CAA."​

Obviously this is not as conclusive as I would like, but it is broadly supportive of the conclusions we reached earlier. The best thing now would be to have something from the CAA supporting this conclusion, but I have had no luck with them yet.

 

[nathankw]

Thanks for this. I just did the UAVHUB A2CofC course (which includes a section on use the apps to work out where you can fly). I asked about the London Specified Area and they were stumped too.

It seems insane that even highly experienced professionals are confused about the rules. And it's not like we're talking about some obscure area that no one ever goes to. This is London!!

They said they'd come back to me once they'd got to the bottom of it. Will let you know what they say.

They did say that in their view, if the restrictions only cover helicopters then that doesn't include UAVs.

 

[JayV8]

I have (finally!) received the following from the CAA's "UAV Enquiries" email address. Good enough for me - as I'm only flying sub-250g I think the initial statement, combined with the statement in parentheses at the end of the first paragraph gives me everything I need.

R 160 does not restrict flights carried out with UAS ,however, you must follow the Drone Code. Please note that R160 is within 150 metres of a congested area and the Drone Code states that flights cannot be carried out within 150 metres of a congested area unless holding an Operational Authorisation issued by the CAA for such operations (unless your drone is less than 250g in flying weight/weight at take-off and you can operate A1 Open sub-category operations).

If you would like to operate in congested areas please contact one of the CAA Recognised RAE (Recognised Assessment entities) in order to book a course for a GVC (General Visual line of sight certificate). Once in possession of the GVC you will be able to submit an application for an Operational Authorisation.

 

[nathankw]

I have (finally!) received the following from the CAA's "UAV Enquiries" email address. Good enough for me - as I'm only flying sub-250g I think the initial statement, combined with the statement in parentheses at the end of the first paragraph gives me everything I need.

That's great!!
Well done for getting a straight answer out of them at last.

Another win for the Mini 2!

 

[roshee]

Hi Guys, thank you for this tread I just need to ask I am wanting to use my Drone in Perogola Gardens that also shows it is a R160 Specified area. Is it ok to fly there? any help will be great!

 

[nathankw]

As stated above the R160 specified area isn't an issue for drones.
However if you mean the Pergola Gardens in hampstead heath you have a different issue - that the park authorities say drone use isn't allowed. That said - there doesn't seem to be any actual bye-law against it - so you may be able to risk it.

 

[artix03]

Can i still fly in richmond park if i have a mavic pro or do a A2CofC license?