Flying over cars and houses

[JohnLietzke]

It appears to me the FAA left the flying over vehicles, whether moving or not ambiguous to allow operators the latitude to exercise good judgement. A manned aircraft inevitable flies over people and moving vehicles. The people in vehicles for the most part are covered with a few exceptions like convertibles and open top vehicles.

I think the reference to moving vehicles was intended to limit skulking along a freeway or road way where it is congested. I agree with dawgpilot on the safety hazard provision.

Asking for written clarification from the FAA might be counter productive as it would force them to make a finite rule that could greatly restrict flight areas and could lead to stringent enforcement of such rules. With all the drone videos online that violate FAA regulation there has been little enforcement efforts to pursue those individuals despite documented evidence. Only when an operator does something incredibly negligent does the FAA appear to take action. For instance, obstructing or interfering with airports take off or landing. It would appear that the FAA wants safe operation and only investigates serious accidents.

Let's be honest, most of us who have flow for any period of time have violated one FAA regulation or another. Especial the VLOS. Just because you can't see the tiny speck in the sky does not mean an operator is being unsafe. There is a legal concept called the "spirit of the law" and I think that all falls back to responsible operation and reasonably safety.

That being said the onus of safe operation falls back on the operator. I personally, do not want the FAA to become drone police. We already have enough self appointed.

 

[Johnwheatley11@googlemail]

I have seen a couple of videos here of flights over highways and houses. I was under the impression that flying over cars was not allowed. When I need to fly across a highway, I hover and wait until there is no traffic before crossing. Is that proper? Sort of akin to looking both ways before crossing the street, when we were kids.

Also, in my area, I often need to fly over houses to get where I am going. I am not flying low however and my lowest altitude is roughly 160-250 feet. When possible, I veer off to the tree line avoiding houses. But, at times, it is unavoidable as I live in a congested area. If anyone could elaborate on these two circumstances, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Which is fine when you are not following a steam train

 

[Vic Moss]

I have no problem doing that; I've done it before in the past. Unfortunately in my experience they take several months to send a formal reply, so I likely won't be hearing anything back from them soon.

Also noticed you didn't address my point about 107.23, which I think makes all this talk of "loopholes" fairly irrelevant.

I missed that, being busy. But I did address that very thing in one of my other posts. if there is an incident, or even a report, 107.23 can (& will be) used in any education or enforcement. But that still does not specifically forbid you from flying over cars. And the FAA is very quick to use it in many instances.

So while it's a definite hammer for the FAA to yield in any circumstance, it is irrelevant to the legality asked in the OP's question.

 

[Vic Moss]

That's unfortunate that you don't want to "name names" because I would like to get something in writing from the FAA's Chief Counsel office. They are the ultimate authority when it comes down to how a rule is being enforced.

Respectfully you shouldn't be advising people here that they can fly over moving cars via some kind of secret interpretation that goes against the plain language of the rule.

Also "legal doesn't make it safe or smart, but legal it remains for now" also isn't true, because the FAA always has the catch-all § 107.23 to fall back on, which bans any sort of flying that is deemed hazardous. There's no such thing as a "loophole" that would allow you to fly in a way that the FAA has decided is a safety hazard. Since the preamble clearly explains why flying over moving cars is dangerous, 107.23 can easily handle that situation.

And by the way, I applaud you on wanting the clarification. As Al noted, it's easy for anyone to create a profile and regurgitate bad information. Question answers, especially if you have what you think is the correct info to back up your assertions.

Also, since it seems you want to make sure people follow rules and fly safely, I encourage you to reach out to your local FSDO and see if they need any Drone Pros to join their FAA Safety Team. We are always in need to people willing to join us in order to educate people about the rules.

Feel free to reach out to me directly if you need more info about the FAASTeam: [email protected].

 

[Bop]

I'm more than happy and honored to speak as to Vic's bonafides. I understand many not accepting his interpretations (just like many doubt mine and that's fine too) because all too often we have people "regurgitating" nonsense they've merely seen on FB of a forum. It's too easy to simply create a log-in for a forum and merely "Claim" yourself to be a Subject Matter Expert. We see it every day. Vic doesn't have 10s of 1000s of posts and you don't see his name on here 24/7 tryin to answer every question coming down the pipe. Don't underestimate his true status in our community and his vast knowledge and experience in our industry as a whole. Vic is deeply embedded in our industry from many different aspects from Hobby, Commercial, and the FAA side of thins. Vic is a Clear/Level headed VOICE for our community and who is also one of the few who often goes to bat to SUPPORT our community against unfair and illegal rules/regulations. Add to that, Vic is also one of our trusted FAA Safety Team Representatives and FAA Safety Team Drone Pro.

I'll go as far to say as Vic is a good friend of mine, a VERY trusted source of CREDIBLE information and he is a Go-To point for me when we have FAA questions/concerns. Vic and I have had many UAS discussions and his input is 2nd to none. Actually, Vic's advice has been BETTER than some we've gotten from other sources within the FAA because not everyone in the FAA is "Drone Savvy" and something speak incorrectly.

To say Vic has some "credible" details and information is putting it mildly LOL!!

I am very new to this site and am glad I found it. There are some very qualified members with sound advise to help me correctly learn from. Thank you.
For me, i will continue to stay away from moving cars.

 

[Vic Moss]

I am very new to this site and am glad I found it. There are some very qualified members with sound advise to help me correctly learn from. Thank you.
For me, i will continue to stay away from moving cars.

Never a bad idea to stay away from moving cars if it's at all avoidable.

 

[BigAl07]

I am very new to this site and am glad I found it. There are some very qualified members with sound advise to help me correctly learn from. Thank you.
For me, i will continue to stay away from moving cars.

Here's how I look at it.. Flying over Moving Cars could be opening yourself up to tons of problems IF something goes wrong. Keep in mind when the UAS has a catastrophic failure it could maintain some degree of forward motion (especially in total power failure situ) and you're going to be responsible for whatever happens regardless of your intent.

Can you realistically NEVER fly over vehicles? Not easily.
Can we take extra precautions to help PREVENT accidents? Absolutely!!

 

[Texbow]

Right or wrong I tend to lean into common sense when interpretations are gray. If my flight requires me to fly over a two lane road with random traffic I would not take any special measures to avoid it. If it was necessary to fly over rush hour traffic on the freeway I personally would adjust my flight plan or decline the mission. The fact is that you could be flying over a lonely farm road and everything go wrong and crash into grandma going to church without another car in sight opening yourself to violations under part 107.23. There will always be the remote possibility of something in your flight going really wrong and being subject to 107.23. regardless of what your flying over (farm animals to Daisy Duke fishing in the farm pond). We are operating in a time when emerging technology is moving at a rapid pace in the drone / regulatory environment and rules, laws are bound to change over time. Be smart, use common sense and do the right thing and I suspect serious problems can be avoided.

 

[Thomas B]

Right or wrong I tend to lean into common sense when interpretations are gray. If my flight requires me to fly over a two lane road with random traffic I would not take any special measures to avoid it. If it was necessary to fly over rush hour traffic on the freeway I personally would adjust my flight plan or decline the mission. The fact is that you could be flying over a lonely farm road and everything go wrong and crash into grandma going to church without another car in sight opening yourself to violations under part 107.23. There will always be the remote possibility of something in your flight going really wrong and being subject to 107.23. regardless of what your flying over (farm animals to Daisy Duke fishing in the farm pond). We are operating in a time when emerging technology is moving at a rapid pace in the drone / regulatory environment and rules, laws are bound to change over time. Be smart, use common sense and do the right thing and I suspect serious problems can be avoided.

Agree... err on the side of caution and safety.

 

[Vic Moss]

Be smart, use common sense and do the right thing and I suspect serious problems can be avoided.

Words to live (fly) by.

 

[BuckeyeRay]

I can certainly appreciate that there are people with far more knowledge and experience than my noob self, so please bear with me here. I'm not doubting Vic, I just don't understand and I want to learn.

The language does not say specifically that we may not fly over moving vehicles, I get that, but it does say that we may only fly over humans not involved in the mission if the vehicle they're in is stationary. I'm generally a huge fan of splitting hairs and finding language issues that open opportunities, but I find it hard to believe that the FAA will be ok with me flying over a freeway full of 70MPH cars?

 

[Vic Moss]

I can certainly appreciate that there are people with far more knowledge and experience than my noob self, so please bear with me here. I'm not doubting Vic, I just don't understand and I want to learn.

The language does not say specifically that we may not fly over moving vehicles, I get that, but it does say that we may only fly over humans not involved in the mission if the vehicle they're in is stationary. I'm generally a huge fan of splitting hairs and finding language issues that open opportunities, but I find it hard to believe that the FAA will be ok with me flying over a freeway full of 70MPH cars?

I think it would be very safe to say the the FAA would not be okay with anyone flying over a freeway full of cars going 70MPH. But it's a pretty safe bet you'd be flying over people in those vehicle. And I don't know of any responsible drone owner who would. At least not in line with the cars.

But transitioning that highway would be another matter.

It's safe enough to do. And I even argue it's safer transitioning across a highway at 250 feet than someone flying next to a highway at 50'. You (general "you", not you specifically) could even say flying perfectly legal right next to the highway would create such a distraction to drivers that would be much more dangerous than flying over them at 250'.

But as with all things UAS related, it's all about risk mitigation and pilot responsibly.

 

[CaptSheffield]

I'll be blunt here. This is assuming you're flying under 107 rules.

There is no rule that says we can't fly over vehicles, moving or otherwise. I'm not saying it's smart, just not illegal. If there was a rule about this, then the FAA would not have put out a ANPRM on the subject in early 2019 proposing adding a rule about making it illegal to fly over moving vehicles and establishing a waiver process for it. As of now, that is not developed or part of any law.

So, for now, you can legally fly over moving vehicles, as long as you don't fly over the people in them. The next question is how can you tell if you're over people in the vehicles you're flying over. Basic answer is you can't.

So this boils down to being safe and responsible. I'd strongly advise anyone to not fly down a long line of cars as the travel on the highway. That's just asking for trouble. But as far as flying over moving vehicles safely, that can easily be done. And honestly, if anyone has flown in urban environments at all for any length of time, they'd be lying if they said they're 100% positive they've never flown over any moving vehicles. I have no doubt I have.

But again, this can be done very safely. It's up to you as the pilot in command (under 107), or as the drone operator (under recreational rules) to decide if it's safe and weigh the mitigations against the possible hazard.

Having said all of that, I'll end on this.

If there is an accident, or if you cause an accident by distracting the driver of a moving vehicle (whether you were over them or not), then your are going to get in trouble because you violated 107.23, Hazardous Operations.

So make sure you can do it safely, and if the worse happens, be prepared to face the consequences.

As far as flying over homes, just do it. But don't be annoying about it. I fly over homes all the time. If people have an issue with it, I tell them to call the cops.

So if I'm flying in my yard and a driver looks at my drone and gets in an accident I'm responsible? That's ridiculous.

 

[BigAl07]

Welcome to the forum

 

[CaptSheffield]

Welcome to the forum

I know, but because there seems to be such nit picking(well looking for info), could you be responsible if someone claimed he/she was distracted? I know common sense says no, you're used to seeing ppl mow the lawn. But a flying drone?

 

[BigAl07]

I know, but because there seems to be such nit picking(well looking for info), could you be responsible if someone claimed he/she was distracted? I know common sense says no, you're used to seeing ppl mow the lawn. But a flying drone?

I would only see that a problem if you were flying in such a manner that is reckless etc. Flying in your yard shouldn't be of the concern for anyone merely driving by no more than flying a kite or something else in your yard.

 

[Thomas B]

So if I'm flying in my yard and a driver looks at my drone and gets in an accident I'm responsible? That's ridiculous.

Not what he said... read the post again.

 

[Thomas B]

Welcome to the forum from the deserts of Arizona! Enjoy.

 

[StuckInTree]

I think it would be very safe to say the the FAA would not be okay with anyone flying over a freeway full of cars going 70MPH. But it's a pretty safe bet you'd be flying over people in those vehicle. And I don't know of any responsible drone owner who would. At least not in line with the cars.

But transitioning that highway would be another matter.

It's safe enough to do. And I even argue it's safer transitioning across a highway at 250 feet than someone flying next to a highway at 50'. You (general "you", not you specifically) could even say flying perfectly legal right next to the highway would create such a distraction to drivers that would be much more dangerous than flying over them at 250'.

But as with all things UAS related, it's all about risk mitigation and pilot responsibly.

I agree with this point, but still think it is unwise to traverse a well traveled road or highway. Even if you are a careful pilot, look both ways before crossing, etc. there should also be a consideration of what could happen in an emergency situation. What happens if a battery, ESC or prop fails, or it decides to execute a RTH or critical battery landing on it's own, right on top of the highway? Just not worth it to me.

 

[BuckeyeRay]

But transitioning that highway would be another matter...

...But as with all things UAS related, it's all about risk mitigation and pilot responsibly.

Isn't crossing the freeway also flying over cars with people in them going 70MPH? I guess I'm confused about what you're saying regarding how the FAA interprets 107.39.

I agree with your safety assessment, by the way. The cautious/safe pilot gets to keep flying.