GPS lock.... from high-rise... after take off?

[old man mavic]

Flying anytime is a risk and even though he is a new flyer, he had the smarts to reach out and get advise beforehand. Yes, it is riskier, and whatever he decides will depend on whether he feels capable of handling that assessment. Scaremongering won't help. Remember, he chose to buy a drone mainly based that he could/would be able to conveniently fly from his balcony.

no one least of all me is scaremongering,as you said he came on here for advice, and that is what he got,
i do not intend to take any further part in this thread ,all that needs to be said on the subject ,has already been said ,happy flying OMM

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

Scaremongering won't help

I don't think anyone is scaremongering, the difficulties are real and the problems that can arise from flying from a reinforce structure are well documented.
I will add one more, OA when trying to bring the drone into the balcony.

 

[Dronecation]

I don't think anyone is scaremongering, the difficulties are real and the problems that can arise from flying from a reinforce structure are well documented.
I will add one more, OA when trying to bring the drone into the balcony.

To quote OMM- "as many others have said ,the whole scenario of flying from your balcony ,is at best foolhardy ,and you can almost guarantee .that at some point it will end up in disaster"
In my part of the world, that is scaremongering...but if most here think it isn't, then my bad, and let things carry onwards without cherry picking an argument. The chappie is a first time poster and new flyer...last thing he needs to read about is the 'Bickersons' having a go.

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

People sometimes fail to understand sugar coated warnings.
In my part of the world OMM was merely speaking plainly, without any sugar coating. Anyway I suggest it would be best to discontinue our discussion of the matter. It's not going to change what has been written and it's up to the OP whether or not they follow the advice they have received.

 

[EricJT]

There are two different issues here, risk and compliance, only risk being discussed.

What the aviation authority where @CaptinCrunch lives requires is quite important too. His profile says he's in Canada, so this article may be helpful, which includes this paragraph:

​

"So you have to make sure that the owner or whoever has an interest in the structure (whomever primarily leases the building) has granted you permission to fly within the 50 metres of the building but, but also, any and all occupants of the structure are under control of the remote pilot"​

The article does reference specific parts of the CAA regs, which should be followed-up on, I didn't bother as I'm not in Canada.

Judging by the above paragraph, it seems permission from the building owner, and every resident, would be required to operate closer to the building than 50m. Further, i interpret the rule to require this notification and permission to be obtained from the other residents (involved people) for every instance of flight operations. This my interpretation.

So, for practical purposes, a flight like this is basically prohibited in Canada.

From Transport Canada regarding drones....

• away from bystanders, at a minimum horizontal distance of 30 metres for basic operations

Seems to be impossible to assure yourself there is nobody on their balconies in this 30 story high rise when you are taking off.

 

[Dronecation]

From Transport Canada regarding drones....

• away from bystanders, at a minimum horizontal distance of 30 metres for basic operations

Seems to be impossible to assure yourself there is nobody on their balconies in this 30 story high rise when you are taking off.

Please show where it says that for a sub 250 gram drone?

 

[HoozierDroneDaddy]

In addition to all the above. No one has mentioned VLOS, legal or not, if he is flying from the 10th floor on a 30 floor building, and he is in the center or between other buildings, not withstanding the issue of wind currents, if he flies above the building he would lose sight of the drone once he passes over the roof. Now you have another issue as he cannot see any hazards from other surrounding building's.

 

[anotherlab]

....What the aviation authority where @CaptinCrunch lives requires is quite important too. His profile says he's in Canada, so this article may be helpful, which includes this paragraph:

​

"So you have to make sure that the owner or whoever has an interest in the structure (whomever primarily leases the building) has granted you permission to fly within the 50 metres of the building but, but also, any and all occupants of the structure are under control of the remote pilot"​

The article does reference specific parts of the CAA regs, which should be followed-up on, I didn't bother as I'm not in Canada....

The CAA is the Civil Aviation Authority in the UK. Transport Canada regulates drone use in Canada. With the change of jurisdiction, the OP should be aware of the Canadian Aviation Regulations SOR/96-433 "AERONAUTICS ACT". Specifically the subsection "Site Survey" 901.27.

901.27 No pilot shall operate a remotely piloted aircraft system unless, before commencing operations, they determine that the site for take-off, launch, landing or recovery is suitable for the proposed operation by conducting a site survey that takes into account the following factors:

• (a) the boundaries of the area of operation;
• (b) the type of airspace and the applicable regulatory requirements;
• (c) the altitudes and routes to be used on the approach to and departure from the area of operation;
• (d) the proximity of manned aircraft operations;
• (e) the proximity of aerodromes, airports and heliports;
• (f) the location and height of obstacles, including wires, masts, buildings, cell phone towers and wind turbines;
• (g) the predominant weather and environmental conditions for the area of operation; and
• (h) the horizontal distances from persons not involved in the operation.

While 901.27 (f) does not ban the launch from buildings, it could give LE a reason to interrupt your activities. If you plan on launching from your balcony but landing elsewhere, make sure that you are compliant with 901.33, (a) and (b).

Regarding...

That applies to drones 250grams and above...
CC is using a sub 250 gram drone. Rules are different.

I don't think that is correct. In Canada, sub-250g drones do not need to be registered, but they need to follow the same rules as larger drones.

 

[Dronecation]

The CAA is the Civil Aviation Authority in the UK. Transport Canada regulates drone use in Canada. With the change of jurisdiction, the OP should be aware of the Canadian Aviation Regulations SOR/96-433 "AERONAUTICS ACT". Specifically the subsection "Site Survey" 901.27.


While 901.27 (f) does not ban the launch from buildings, it could give LE a reason to interrupt your activities. If you plan on launching from your balcony but landing elsewhere, make sure that you are compliant with 901.33, (a) and (b).

Regarding...

I don't think that is correct. In Canada, sub-250g drones do not need to be registered, but they need to follow the same rules as larger drones.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Sub 250 gram drones have only one regulation in Canada. CAR 900.06
Yes, there are other rules to follow, but basically, it is a common sense regulation to behave and not fly stupidly or hazardously. Micro droning in Canada is different than in the USA.

 

[EricJT]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Sub 250 gram drones have only one regulation in Canada. CAR 900.06
Yes, there are other rules to follow, but basically, it is a common sense regulation to behave and not fly stupidly or hazardously. Micro droning in Canada is different than in the USA.

I agree....the only thing I found is....
If you are flying a drone that is less than 250 grams, you do not need to register the drone or get a drone pilot certificate.

I would hazard a guess that you need to still follow the rules regarding people and buildings, otherwise we might see sub 250 grammers flying over sporting events and interesting buildings.

I fly an M2P so I am licenced and obey the rules covering my drone.

 

[Dronecation]

I agree....the only thing I found is....
If you are flying a drone that is less than 250 grams, you do not need to register the drone or get a drone pilot certificate.

I would hazard a guess that you need to still follow the rules regarding people and buildings, otherwise we might see sub 250 grammers flying over sporting events and interesting buildings.

I fly an M2P so I am licenced and obey the rules covering my drone.

You have a licence so you should not be guessing whether micro drones could fly over people and buildings. Read carefully and you'd be surprised what micro drones are allowed to do, and what regular drones above 250 grams can't do.

 

[finity]

In reading this thread I think the obvious question that seems to be missing is "why can't you take off from the ground?"

if it's a "legality" issue (even if just a rule) then why is it "legal" to take off from your balcony and not just 10 feet to the side and then you are on the ground?

it seems it could eliminate the question of fixing the RTH problem. Along with all of the other associated issues.

 

[Dronecation]

In reading this thread I think the obvious question that seems to be missing is "why can't you take off from the ground?"

if it's a "legality" issue (even if just a rule) then why is it "legal" to take off from your balcony and not just 10 feet to the side and then you are on the ground?

it seems it could eliminate the question of fixing the RTH problem. Along with all of the other associated issues.

Read what the OP said in the beginning. Of course he could take off from the ground, but he has stated otherwise. It is not a legality issue. Read what has been said here beforehand.

 

[Grandpa]

Flying without GPS lock, atti mode, takes practice..it's a totally different animal. Blows with the wind and won't stop when sticks released, unless commanded. It's lost, has no idea where it is so all on the pilot..you. Without gps hand launch and land get very tricky..but doable with practice in an open area. Good luck

OP is going to have a terrible time unless he gets really good on the sticks in atti mode. That is the mode I would use for balcony takeoffs/landings to eliminate sensor errors. That, in and of itself, will take a lot of practice. Let alone hand catching.

 

[Ty Pilot]

Question:

• As I can manual launch by hand
• can I launch, and fly 20 - 30 feet away from building (from 10th floor)
• Hover
• and wait for the GPS to lock, similar to how it is capable of doing so at the ground level?

In your scenario, you're supposing that the drone will fly as usual without GPS and that you can just hover till the lock is acquired - it doesn't work this way. Without GPS, the drone will hover, but it won't hold position or heading, and will act like a hockey puck on ice. Even slight winds will set it moving like a balloon in a breeze. Also, if a slight spin starts; now you have determine heading and arrest the yaw and motion by hand.

This is called Atti (attitude) mode, and if you've never done it, your chances in even a slight wind of holding the drone in position for even a few seconds are not going to be favorable. Some drones can use vison positioning by the bottom sensors to help hold without a GPS lock but you will not have this ability at that altitude.

For this reason your success or failure will depend on how fast GPS lock occurs.

Edit* I was writing when the above was posted

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

Just to clarify something some folks are mentioning, ATTI mode. The drone will likely switch to ATTI mode when two conditions are met,
1) insufficient GPS and
2) the VPS being unable to work.
Condition 1) is likely to be met when the drone is over the balcony and when it first flies out from the balcony.
VPS requires that the surface below the drone is well lit and close enough for the sensors to see it. OVER the balcony I suspect that the balcony will be well enough lit and close enough for VPS to work so the drone will NOT be in ATTI mode.
However, as soon as the drone is out in 'open air space' the surface beneath the drone, the ground, will, from a tenth storey balcony, be out of VPS range and then the drone will probably switch to ATTI mode, then the fun begins.
Add OA into the mixture and I wouldn't fancy trying it.

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

One other point just came to mind, height.
Remember all height settings in the App are relative to the motor start or launch site, I can never remember which.
So an RTH height of 100m would be relative to the your hand on the 10th floor balcony and probably more than 130m AGL and probably illegal. Ditto the maximum height which must be at least RTH height.

 

[EricJT]

You have a licence so you should not be guessing whether micro drones could fly over people and buildings. Read carefully and you'd be surprised what micro drones are allowed to do, and what regular drones above 250 grams can't do.

Okay, I possibly stand corrected, if you can link me to TC's specific rules for operating sub 250 gram drones in Canada. What I read recently is somewhat mute on those rules, but very specific about not requiring to be licensed in Canada.

 

[finity]

Read what the OP said in the beginning.

Sorry, it wasn't clear that "practiced from the ground" was directly related to flying right beside the building where he wanted to take off from the 10th floor. I assumed it was at some further way location.

If they can fly from the ground then why take all of the risks of launching from a covered balcony?

At least that's the way I think.

 

[Grandpa]

Just to clarify something some folks are mentioning, ATTI mode. The drone will likely switch to ATTI mode when two conditions are met,
1) insufficient GPS and
2) the VPS being unable to work.
Condition 1) is likely to be met when the drone is over the balcony and when it first flies out from the balcony.
VPS requires that the surface below the drone is well lit and close enough for the sensors to see it. OVER the balcony I suspect that the balcony will be well enough lit and close enough for VPS to work so the drone will NOT be in ATTI mode.
However, as soon as the drone is out in 'open air space' the surface beneath the drone, the ground, will, from a tenth storey balcony, be out of VPS range and then the drone will probably switch to ATTI mode, then the fun begins.
Add OA into the mixture and I wouldn't fancy trying it.

Precisely why I would put it in atti mode. Don’t want it going in and out of atti mode.