Grounded!

[westwind77]

So the POTUS decided to spend the Holiday week on Nantucket......great for him.....however there is a 30 mile radius NFZ set up around the island which encompasses most of Cape Cod, a huge vacation destination. So, I have all this time off work where I can go fly.....but can't. Very frustrating. I think 30 miles it a bit extreme. This is the largest NFZ ring I can remember around a POTUS. I know other locals pilots are very upset about this as well, oh well, nothing you can do about it though. Thanks for letting me vent!

 

[sar104]

That TFR is completely normal - an inner 10 NM ring that basically prohibits all flights other than scheduled commercial and emergency operations, and an outer ring to 30 NM that allows flights with an active flight plan.

30 NM is a reasonable controlled radius for manned aircraft, but obviously overkill for sUAS operations. Unfortunately TFRs are indiscriminate.

 

[westwind77]

30 NM is a reasonable controlled radius for manned aircraft, but obviously overkill for sUAS operations. Unfortunately TFRs are indiscriminate.

Exactly! I can understand manned flights but drones 30 miles out, that is a bit much.

 

[AVLJMA]

30 miles!?!
It may be possible with occusync 4

 

[Vic Moss]

I’d love to be able to work with DHS and get the UAS ring shortened. I think 2SM is fine for UAS.

 

[DoomMeister]

So the POTUS decided to spend the Holiday week on Nantucket......great for him.....however there is a 30 mile radius NFZ set up around the island which encompasses most of Cape Cod, a huge vacation destination. So, I have all this time off work where I can go fly.....but can't. Very frustrating. I think 30 miles it a bit extreme. This is the largest NFZ ring I can remember around a POTUS. I know other locals pilots are very upset about this as well, oh well, nothing you can do about it though. Thanks for letting me vent!

The VIP TFR has been 30nm in most instances since it’s inception so nothing new this time around. Never heard complaints in New England when Palm Beach and surrounding areas were under the TFR.

I’d love to be able to work with DHS and get the UAS ring shortened. I think 2SM is fine for UAS.

That would be great Vic, but you might have better luck just relaxing the outer ring for sUAS operations.

 

[Smooth Rhythm]

Exactly! I can understand manned flights but drones 30 miles out, that is a bit much.

Keep in mind that commercial off-the-shelf drones are one thing, we pretty much know their capabilities. But who knows what hacked and modified drones can do and how far and how fast they can go. Hence, I think 30 miles is reasonable (But for a flyer within a 30 mile circle, man, I feel your pain). Happy flying whenever you get a chance, and have a happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Vic Moss]

Keep in mind that commercial off-the-shelf drones are one thing, we pretty much know their capabilities. But who knows what hacked and modified drones can do and how far and how fast they can go. Hence, I think 30 miles is reasonable (But for a flyer within a 30 mile circle, man, I feel your pain). Happy flying whenever you get a chance, and have a happy Thanksgiving!

Those who hack and modify aren't going to be following the rules anyway (if they are bad actors). Having the 30SM radius include UAS is astronomical overkill. It literally shuts down an industry whenever there is a VIP TFR. And if the POTUS or VPOTUS are vacationing for an extended period of time, or if you live near their weekend home, you're screwed.

This needs to be taken care of ASAP.

 

[sar104]

Those who hack and modify aren't going to be following the rules anyway (if they are bad actors). Having the 30SM radius include UAS is astronomical overkill. It literally shuts down an industry whenever there is a VIP TFR. And if the POTUS or VPOTUS are vacationing for an extended period of time, or if you live near their weekend home, you're screwed.

This needs to be taken care of ASAP.

Is there already an initiative to address this, or are you proposing to start one?

 

[Vic Moss]

Is there already an initiative to address this, or are you proposing to start one?

We haven't been able to get in front of the right people yet. The issue is that this is a DHS thing, and getting them to change their minds about something to do with SCOTUS (regardless of party) is darn near impossible. We may end up trying to get this added to the 2023 FAA Reauthorization Act. Hopefully it won't take that long, but we'll see.

I'm wanting to concentrate on it once DC is back in session in January. We need FAA, DHS, and SS all on the same page.

"Herding cats" comes to mind...

 

[sar104]

We haven't been able to get in front of the right people yet. The issue is that this is a DHS thing, and getting them to change their minds about something to do with SCOTUS (regardless of party) is darn near impossible. We may end up trying to get this added to the 2023 FAA Reauthorization Act. Hopefully it won't take that long, but we'll see.

I'm wanting to concentrate on it once DC is back in session in January. We need FAA, DHS, and SS all on the same page.

"Herding cats" comes to mind...

In principle there is no problem creating a TFR that only applies to certain classes of aircraft, so presumably a reasonable approach might be simply to remove sUAS from the outer TFR. Since the identified threat has always been strictly from manned aircraft, I wonder if they have even given any thought to the sUAS aspect. If it is just a collateral casualty then it may be less of a problem to get agreement.

 

[RadioFlyerMan]

Happened to me when Mr. President was holding a rally in Traverse City, MI. And I live 30 miles west of Traverse City. The TRF extended past my house and into Lake Michigan.

I know it's a burden, but I can understand it. You don't need a hacked drone to fly far and cause a problem. There is an West to East flight path right over my house (again 30 + miles away from the runway) that could easily be entered with your standard Mavic Pro when launched from a Class G and rising to 1600 ft, It is rare, but I've observed commercial airlines passing right over my house easily less than 1600 ft AGL.

 

[Vic Moss]

In principle there is no problem creating a TFR that only applies to certain classes of aircraft, so presumably a reasonable approach might be simply to remove sUAS from the outer TFR. Since the identified threat has always been strictly from manned aircraft, I wonder if they have even given any thought to the sUAS aspect. If it is just a collateral casualty then it may be less of a problem to get agreement.

UAS were just lumped in with manned aviation when UAS became so prevalent. So hopefully you're right, and it won't be a huge fight. To my knowledge, no one has really taken this by the horn yet. DSPA will be after the Holidays.

 

[DoomMeister]

In principle there is no problem creating a TFR that only applies to certain classes of aircraft, so presumably a reasonable approach might be simply to remove sUAS from the outer TFR. Since the identified threat has always been strictly from manned aircraft, I wonder if they have even given any thought to the sUAS aspect. If it is just a collateral casualty then it may be less of a problem to get agreement.

You and I are on the same wavelength on this subject.
@Vic Moss go for more and accept the lesser if offered.

 

[Smooth Rhythm]

Those who hack and modify aren't going to be following the rules anyway (if they are bad actors). Having the 30SM radius include UAS is astronomical overkill. It literally shuts down an industry whenever there is a VIP TFR. And if the POTUS or VPOTUS are vacationing for an extended period of time, or if you live near their weekend home, you're screwed.

This needs to be taken care of ASAP.

I fully understand and agree with your assessment of “bad actors.” Absolutely. And it would be foolhardy for me to argue with someone with your knowledge and experience. I can only say this: those of us who live in the Washington DC area permanently live with a 30 mile rule. Granted, flying a UAS within the 15-mile radius inner ring is prohibited without specific FAA authorization, but flying a between 15 and 30 miles from D.C. is allowed under specific operating conditions. Possibly a similar rule could be used for POTUS and VPOTUS travel. Bottom line, I don’t know what the government knows, so I’m not in a position to second-guess it. Nevertheless, good luck in your efforts to “get in front of the right people” and “herding cats." . Happy flying and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Vic Moss]

And it would be foolhardy for me to argue with someone with your knowledge and experience.

Please do argue with me, I'm not the end all be all by any stretch. We're all in this to learn, and I'm alway open to learning from others.

can only say this: those of us who live in the Washington DC area permanently live with a 30 mile rule. Granted, flying a UAS within the 15-mile radius inner ring is prohibited without specific FAA authorization, but flying a between 15 and 30 miles from D.C. is allowed under specific operating conditions. Possibly a similar rule could be used for POTUS and VPOTUS travel.

Cutting the UAS aspect to that outer ring would be a good start. And may be the only way to do it. But I'll always fight to the best option for this industry, and accept less if that's all we get.

Never let perfect be the enemy of good.

Bottom line, I don’t know what the government knows, so I’m not in a position to second-guess it. Nevertheless, good luck in your efforts to “get in front of the right people” and “herding cats." . Happy flying and Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy T-day to you and yours as well.

 

[tlswift58]

So the POTUS decided to spend the Holiday week on Nantucket......great for him.....however there is a 30 mile radius NFZ set up around the island which encompasses most of Cape Cod, a huge vacation destination. So, I have all this time off work where I can go fly.....but can't. Very frustrating. I think 30 miles it a bit extreme. This is the largest NFZ ring I can remember around a POTUS. I know other locals pilots are very upset about this as well, oh well, nothing you can do about it though. Thanks for letting me vent!

Venture a bit further north and west. Should be lots of great flying in MA west of Boston. Yeah, a bit of a drive, but most of us do that anyway for new drone locations.

 

[tlswift58]

In principle there is no problem creating a TFR that only applies to certain classes of aircraft, so presumably a reasonable approach might be simply to remove sUAS from the outer TFR. Since the identified threat has always been strictly from manned aircraft, I wonder if they have even given any thought to the sUAS aspect. If it is just a collateral casualty then it may be less of a problem to get agreement.

Simply getting "authorization" to fly and maybe under a 200-300 ft AGL window might be acceptable to all in the outer ring. Not many drones could fly from Cape Cod to Nantucket in the first place, so folks on Cape Cod should be able to get some type of authorization and everyone who needs to know will know.

 

[360 Guy]

Mr. westwind77, you keep him up there please.​

I had him down here four weeks ago and couldn't fly the whole weekend.
It's more blessed to give then to receive.

 

[ackdrone]

So the POTUS decided to spend the Holiday week on Nantucket......great for him.....however there is a 30 mile radius NFZ set up around the island which encompasses most of Cape Cod, a huge vacation destination. So, I have all this time off work where I can go fly.....but can't. Very frustrating. I think 30 miles it a bit extreme. This is the largest NFZ ring I can remember around a POTUS. I know other locals pilots are very upset about this as well, oh well, nothing you can do about it though. Thanks for letting me vent!

Yes we are locked down and the wind was nice and light today to make it even tougher not to be able to fly