Helicopter and Drone collision.

[Robert Prior]

after speaking with the pilot, we always assumed that he could see our large M300RTK

After a collision near me between a Cessna and a police drone, I asked a friend who holds both general aviation and drone pilot certificates what the chances of spotting the drone were. He said you'd have to be lucky to spot it, and really lucky to spot it in time to assess the situation and react.

Air transportation safety investigation A21O0069 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Mid-air collision, York Regional Police, DJI Matrice M210 (remotely piloted aircraft), C-2105569275 and, Canadian Flyers International Inc., Cessna 172N, C-GKWL, Toronto/Buttonville Municipal Airport, Ontario, 1.2 NM NW, 10 August 2021

www.tsb.gc.ca

He also pointed out that the onus of avoiding manned aircraft is on the drone pilot at all times. "I didn't see it" may be an explanation, but it isn't an excuse, which is why situational awareness is so important.

 

[TonyPHX]

I really appreciate @Vic Moss and his position that speculation does not help. The facts will come out. One thing I am looking to understand is, did the RPIC have a VO. When working in any area that requires a waiver and has known airspace challenges, I always have the appropriate numbers of VO's to insure safety.

Mistakes were made for sure, as the collision proves. Now, how can all parties do better moving forward?

 

[Joemama88]

The drone pilot, unless he had successfully obtained a waiver, was flying in controlled airspace with a maximum LAANC approval of 50' AGL I can't emphasize enough the importance of checking airspace before heading out.

View attachment 171500

Oh wow I am new to drones but I have taught myself as much as I can and very confident knowing the laws. This guy is going to be in big trouble.

 

[BigAl07]

Oh wow I am new to drones but I have taught myself as much as I can and very confident knowing the laws. This guy is going to be in big trouble.

That's a LOT of speculations there especially for someone just getting started. Take a moment to read or maybe re-read the post linked below:

Helicopter and Drone collision.

Looks like a confirmed collision between an unknown Make/Model drone and a tourist helicopter. https://www.yahoo.com/news/drone-helicopter-collide-over-florida-030134683.html

mavicpilots.com

 

[CactusJackSlade]

The drone pilot, unless he had successfully obtained a waiver, was flying in controlled airspace with a maximum LAANC approval of 50' AGL I can't emphasize enough the importance of checking airspace before heading out.

View attachment 171500

This was exactly where I was going to look when I saw it was near an airport. 100% drone pilots fault, unless of course he had a waiver. I'm not gonna hold my breath on that though!

 

[Daytona500]

If you look at the post by Vic Moss he said both drone pilot and Heli pilot had a right to be were they were. So I would assume and I use that word lightly that the drone pilot had clearance to fly there.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

One wonders if the helicopter pilot was cleared to fly that low.
The drone pilot also appears to be at fault for looking at their tablet.
How could they fail to notice the appraoch of the helicopter?
If they are not deaf how could they fail to hear an appraoching helicopter.
Possibly a lucky escape for both parties but I wouldn't fancy being the drone pilot.

I was almost in a collision with a commercial helicopter about a month ago, here in Florida. IT WAS FLYING LOW (AND FAST), BECAUSE IT WAS SPRAYING FOR MOSQUITOS. It was was lower than my drone which was at or about 250ft agl.

Just so you all know, you can't hear those helicopters flying that low because of the trees and other stuff reflecting the noise. I didn't here the helicopter until it was too late to make any maneuvers to get out of its way. I was so scared after that, I was shaking and my heart was racing. I landed immediately after I saw it and am now super leery when I fly.

This happened over my house. I was on one side of my house, the helicopter approached from the other side. The house and trees blocked the helicopter's noise, until it was right over me and under the drone. Well, not under the drone, but close enough to make my heart race. I know the insect control helicopter was lower than my drone because I had my camera pointing slightly downward, and it crossed, the cameras path.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

For sure I hope this post is revisited when/if the results, reports, and conclusions are made available. Reading the comments in the article, many are hilarious. The rules and regulations might be straightforward but there is major confusion amongst the general public with sadly includes *pilots*. I would be thrilled if this ended up with the drone pilot getting a pass and not taking the fault if he didn't do anything wrong, which we don't yet know. I'm not a fan of automatically assigning the blame regardless the facts just because it is manned v. unmanned....and, maybe it isn't really that way; maybe *I* misunderstand that. FAA will set it straight. Either way, the helicopter apparently has serious damage that needs to be paid for.

Insurance

 

[StevenBrodsky]

Whether negligent or not, it's undeniable that the drone pilot failed to give way to a manned aircraft. That's a basic and simple requirement in the regulations. So, he's at fault.

What regulation might the helicopter pilot have violated that led to the collision?

I posted my experience with a low flying insect control helicopter. I was flying on one side of my house and couldn't hear the insect control heli coming at all. It was suddenly in my airspace. There were only about 5 seconds from hearing the heli and seeing it. I had no chance of maneuvering out of the way or landing in time. My house blocked the choppers noise until We almost hit.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

Sorry if I made too many comments. I'm still freaked out by what almost happened to me with that insect control chopper.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

But it suggests to me that he was looking at the tablet for 'long enough', otherwise surely he would have seen the helicopter approaching?

You can't see a helicopter when it's flying just above the tree line, until it's right over you. And the sound, The sound sounds like its coming from everywhere. Lesson? You hear any helicopter noise and can't see it, land anyway.

 

[BigAl07]

You can't see a helicopter when it's flying just above the tree line, until it's right over you. And the sound, The sound sounds like its coming from everywhere. Lesson? You hear any helicopter noise and can't see it, land anyway.

First off WELCOME to the forum and thank you for sharing your experience. I had a similar one just a couple of months ago.

I will go on record stating something that is not going to "sit well" with the majority here on this forum (or in our community as a whole)....

If you're flying in such a way as to limit your visibility (trees, tall buildings etc) and unable to see/hear an approaching aircraft, then you're not flying SAFE and fully immersed in the See & Avoid concept. Keep in mind, it's our fundamental responsibility to See & Avoid at any cost.

 

[StevenBrodsky]

First off WELCOME to the forum and thank you for sharing your experience. I had a similar one just a couple of months ago.

I will go on record stating something that is not going to "sit well" with the majority here on this forum (or in our community as a whole)....

If you're flying in such a way as to limit your visibility (trees, tall buildings etc) and unable to see/hear an approaching aircraft, then you're not flying SAFE and fully immersed in the See & Avoid concept. Keep in mind, it's our fundamental responsibility to See & Avoid at any cost.

Thanks for the welcome. Your right. It may be inconvenient, but it's best to find an OPEN area that allows us to see in all directions. I made the mistake of standing near the side of my house. I only had 180 degrees of view. The other 180 was behind the house, exactly where the helicopter came from.

 

[jccvk2106]

One wonders if the helicopter pilot was cleared to fly that low.
The drone pilot also appears to be at fault for looking at their tablet.
How could they fail to notice the appraoch of the helicopter?
If they are not deaf how could they fail to hear an appraoching helicopter.
Possibly a lucky escape for both parties but I wouldn't fancy being the drone pilot.

My question if flying 107 Why use a drone without ADS-B, 2 question for the user in the know, Do Helicopter have ADS-B on board in germany few small planes fly over Air2S pickup 500+meter away could hear bit could not see, maybe different country different laws ?

 

[jccvk2106]

First off WELCOME to the forum and thank you for sharing your experience. I had a similar one just a couple of months ago.

I will go on record stating something that is not going to "sit well" with the majority here on this forum (or in our community as a whole)....

If you're flying in such a way as to limit your visibility (trees, tall buildings etc) and unable to see/hear an approaching aircraft, then you're not flying SAFE and fully immersed in the See & Avoid concept. Keep in mind, it's our fundamental responsibility to See & Avoid at any cost.

no but can hear as I work in hospital in germany we can hear over 300 meter away we have a PIS landing pad

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

My question if flying 107 Why use a drone without ADS-B, 2 question for the user in the know, Do Helicopter have ADS-B on board in germany few small planes fly over Air2S pickup 500+meter away could hear bit could not see, maybe different country different laws ?

Not all drones have ADS-B, I do not know if all aircraft have it.

 

[Real merc]

First time I have actually posted here as literally just joined but it always down to the drone pilot. It is my first post but something I have experience with. I've flown rc planes for nearly 40 years now and will admit that when I first started flying flew on some fields near my home and my as a kid of 14 didn't even think about the international airport less than half a mile away from there. Once I started doing it legally I couldn't believe the stupidity and recklessness of my actions. I don't do anything like that now but cheaper drones and kids or a dumb adult who live near airports will not be too long before we get get news on some disaster and in the UK kids are flying everywhere and your never far from airports.

 

[BigAl07]

First time I have actually posted here as literally just joined but it always down to the drone pilot. It is my first post but something I have experience with. I've flown rc planes for nearly 40 years now and will admit that when I first started flying flew on some fields near my home and my as a kid of 14 didn't even think about the international airport less than half a mile away from there. Once I started doing it legally I couldn't believe the stupidity and recklessness of my actions. I don't do anything like that now but cheaper drones and kids or a dumb adult who live near airports will not be too long before we get get news on some disaster and in the UK kids are flying everywhere and your never far from airports.

While your "Thought process" is correct we need to quantify some points. Back when you started flying R/C at 14 (roughly 1984) several key points were different:

• 1) you had to actually fly the aircraft. If, at any point you stopped flying the aircraft it became a Yard Dart.
• 2) We had a very finite range between the aircraft and the R/C and it was MUCH less than VLOS usually. Until FailSafe came around (roughly 2005 or so) if you lost connection to the aircraft it "Glitched" and would crash shortly there after.
• 3) We had no GPS Coordinated Flight. The moment you lost sight of it you were "flying blind" and it was usually a matter of moments until it crashed unless you got lucky and turned it around to regain sight.
• 4) We spent weeks or even months building and tweaking our aircraft and knew it's workings inside and out deeply.
• 5) We learned to FLY the aircraft. Even if we knew nothing about aerodynamics we knew how to keep the wings level, nose up, land smooth and then repair the damage from our mistakes.

That's a WORLD of difference from today's Pay & Fly, GPS Guided, Flight Controller Flown, no skin in the game UAS. The R/C planes and helicopters didn't fly so far, so high, or autonomously like today's "Flying Robots" do. Night and Day difference.

 

[Real merc]

While your "Thought process" is correct we need to quantify some points. Back when you started flying R/C at 14 (roughly 1984) several key points were different:

• 1) you had to actually fly the aircraft. If, at any point you stopped flying the aircraft it became a Yard Dart.
• 2) We had a very finite range between the aircraft and the R/C and it was MUCH less than VLOS usually. Until FailSafe came around (roughly 2005 or so) if you lost connection to the aircraft it "Glitched" and would crash shortly there after.
• 3) We had no GPS Coordinated Flight. The moment you lost sight of it you were "flying blind" and it was usually a matter of moments until it crashed unless you got lucky and turned it around to regain sight.
• 4) We spent weeks or even months building and tweaking our aircraft and knew it's workings inside and out deeply.
• 5) We learned to FLY the aircraft. Even if we knew nothing about aerodynamics we knew how to keep the wings level, nose up, land smooth and then repair the damage from our mistakes.

That's a WORLD of difference from today's Pay & Fly, GPS Guided, Flight Controller Flown, no skin in the game UAS. The R/C planes and helicopters didn't fly so far, so high, or autonomously like today's "Flying Robots" do. Night and Day difference.

You made good points and I agree with you but I shouldn't have been flying with Birmingham Airport that close. My smallest plane was about 6ft wingspan and I did lose control of it in higher winds than it was able to handle and I chased it cross-country towards Packington flying (luckily) away from the flight path. I will also add I tried crashing it to get it down but it was too lightweight for the wind and blown away like a plastic bag. But I agree with your comments. My problem is you can buy something for less than £60 with 1km range and someone can fly anywhere with no experience. I believe Gatwick got shutdown a few years ago because of a drone flight. I think its a problem that will continue for a while.

 

[BigAl07]

My question if flying 107 Why use a drone without ADS-B, 2 question for the user in the know, Do Helicopter have ADS-B on board in germany few small planes fly over Air2S pickup 500+meter away could hear bit could not see, maybe different country different laws ?

If you'll dig into ADS-B you'll see the massive short comings it has. Last time I researched it, unless you're in an area no geographical issues (hills, mountains, valleys) close to an airport with controlled Airspace then ADS-B has significant delays and lapse of coverage. IIRC the "100% Coverage" rate was just under 30% in the USA.

Some Helicopters have ADS-B but depending on the area and type of flight it may or may NO be broadcasting. I don't know about Germany's laws but they are probably very similar to the US FAA and it's only require in some certain instances.

You'd be shocked at the amount of aircraft you are NOT seeing on your ADS-B and other flight apps unless you're next to a fairly large airport.

Trusting ADS-B is like installing a Car Avoidance System in your car that only detects RED cars... then putting the car on Auto Pilot and not paying any attention to the road ahead. That's what relying on ADS-B to alert you to every aircraft is going to do.