Hole in FAA Remote ID Rule?

[PacificSkyDreamn]

Looking through the published rule there appears to be a glaring hole. Yes the rule requires (section 89.510) drones manufactured after Sept 16, 2022 for use in the US broadcast RID information in accordance with 47 CFR Part 15 frequencies so that smart phones, tablets or other similar commercially available devices will be able to directly receive the information. However there is nothing in the rule that compels drone manufactures or the industry to build receivers or create smart phone/device apps for receiving and displaying this information.

Sure DJI might incorporate an RID reader into their FLY app, but since it's not required by the FAA rule what's the incentive for building a free app tied to use of their product that doesn't improve the use of the drone or flight experience. AirMap or Kittyhawk might add it as a feature in their apps, but once again these are free niche apps - although I could see these two doing it for law enforcement community usage.

Some general app developer who's heard about RID might create an app but how do they monetize it to recoup their efforts? How many private citizen non-drone owners are willing to send their money (even if just a few dollars) for an app whose use is dependent upon seeing a drone in the sky. Maybe some private security firms with high profile clients.

Thoughts?

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-01-15/pdf/2020-28948.pdf

 

[Steve F]

To me, it does not seem like this mandate is completely thought out. The receivers in a commercially available smartphone or tablet are not necessarily going to have special capability for capturing RID from some random number of drones at some arbitrary distance. They may be limited to Bluetooth (too short of a range), WiFi (also not long enough range), and optionally a cell phone protocol. But that latter is engineered for specific carriers and a protocol not intended to be shared with any random drone that happens to be in its purview.

 

[Thomas B]

I think of you read the entire thing you’ll find that owners will have to ad a device to their drones in about 1.5-2 years to remain legal.

 

[PacificSkyDreamn]

I think of you read the entire thing you’ll find that owners will have to ad a device to their drones in about 1.5-2 years to remain legal.

I'm not referring to the broadcasting of a signal from the drone, but the receiving of the signal and the capability for someone to read the information contained in the signal.

There just seems to be an assumption by the FAA that "someone" is going to create smart phone apps to read the new RID signals.

 

[66427cobra]

I don't believe there is an expectation that drone pilots will read the remote ID's. This would be used by the FAA (and other authorities) to identify in-flight drones. Hopefully, it will be limited to efforts to keep the airways safe. But I guess it could be abused, too.

 

[PacificSkyDreamn]

I don't believe there is an expectation that drone pilots will read the remote ID's. This would be used by the FAA (and other authorities) to identify in-flight drones. Hopefully, it will be limited to efforts to keep the airways safe. But I guess it could be abused, too.

I was not implying at all that pilots would need to read RID signals of other drones, but that someone (drone manufacturer, app developer, etc.) is going to have to create a way to receive/read the RID signal broadcast by a drone. This could be done by building and selling a standalone device or creating an app to go on a smart phone/tablet. My point was the FAA rule doesn't require this of drone manufactures, so what's the motivation for DJI or any app developer creating the ability to actually read the RID signal/information being transmitted by our drones.

The FAA could have included in the rule's "Subpart F— Remote Identification Design and Production" something like "Any person that produces a standard remote identification unmanned aircraft under § 89.510 or § 89.515 or a remote identification broadcast module under § 89.520, shall provide 47 CFR part 15 compliant devices with the ability to process and display the received information mandated by Subpart D to be transmitted by unmanned aircraft or broadcast module attached to unmanned aircraft covered by Part 89."

 

[Vic Moss]

There are already apps being developed. This is not a hole in RID. RID signals will be captured on your smartphone w/o a dongle. Simple non-encrypted signals will be sent out. It will then be up to the app developer to provide the signal language to the smartphone's display.

 

[dixter]

the real problem is if no one comes up with an add on module for the existing drones that don't have RID the hobby and business end of Drones will be dead.. That makes a whole lot of Drones useless... I have all ready seen where drone prices are starting to drop due to the fact that non RID compliant drones are going to be worthless if that module isn't developed and sold .... who ever comes up with that module is going to be one rich company....

 

[Vic Moss]

the real problem is if no one comes up with an add on module for the existing drones that don't have RID the hobby and business end of Drones will be dead.. That makes a whole lot of Drones useless... I have all ready seen where drone prices are starting to drop due to the fact that non RID compliant drones are going to be worthless if that module isn't developed and sold .... who ever comes up with that module is going to be one rich company....

There are already those modules in development. These rules didn't just drop out of the sky. Companies have known about this for over a year. They knew it was coming and didn't waste time.

There are multiple companies waiting for ASTM RID Module standards to finish these products. Once those standards are accepted by the FAA, those companies can finish their products and get their testing data back to the FAA for approval.

Modules won't be an issue. At all.

And we have plenty of time to get everything ready and compliant. We have until September 16, 2023. Lots and lots of time still.

 

[Repaid1]

There are already those modules in development. These rules didn't just drop out of the sky. Companies have known about this for over a year. They knew it was coming and didn't waste time.

There are multiple companies waiting for ASTM RID Module standards to finish these products. Once those standards are accepted by the FAA, those companies can finish their products and get their testing data back to the FAA for approval.

Modules won't be an issue. At all.

And we have plenty of time to get everything ready and compliant. We have until September 16, 2023. Lots and lots of time still.

And further still, it's going to be a dog eat dog on these adapter modules. There going to be "dirt cheap" as the market will bear and trust me, marketing knows this...it's best to make $1 on 10's of thousands of sales than to try and gouge a few for a higher profit. To think that any of our current "Drones" will be even slightly effected or paperweights...is well....simply not even thinking.

Case in point was when the "Russians" hacked DJI and charged exorbitant prices for their "System". A few weeks later all that tech was free, or offered in a plain idiot proof GUI for $25 bucks

If people are abandoning ship now...I will happily buy their Drones up...equip with a $25-$50 module and sell it back to them at profit when all is said and done Why worry about 2+ years down the road??? Just plain silly IMHO.

 

[66427cobra]

from the filing:

(2) The remote identification broadcast module must continuously monitor the remote identification functionality from takeoff to shutdown and must provide notification of malfunction or failure to the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system.

It appears that it will be up to the RID module manufacturer to provide notice to the operator of a malfunction. Hopefully, that notification will be integrated into the associated control app (i.e.; DJI Fly). Reasonable assumption for drones with integrated modules, when they become available.

May be more challenging for addon modules. Could the addon module pass the failure notice to the drone which would relay it to the control app? That would eliminate the need for a separate communications path, special receiver on the smartphone, and another app.

Looks like notification could simply be a flashing icon on the app alerting the operator to bring the drone home.

The only thing that is certain is that there are more questions than answers, right now.

Be careful out there...

 

[PacificSkyDreamn]

There are already those modules in development. These rules didn't just drop out of the sky. Companies have known about this for over a year. They knew it was coming and didn't waste time.

There are multiple companies waiting for ASTM RID Module standards to finish these products. Once those standards are accepted by the FAA, those companies can finish their products and get their testing data back to the FAA for approval.

Modules won't be an issue. At all.

And we have plenty of time to get everything ready and compliant. We have until September 16, 2023. Lots and lots of time still.

I'll have to take your work that app developers are already working on apps to receive and display RID transmissions. Although there's noting on the FAA website drone industry page (Remote ID for Industry and Standards Bodies) about the private sector drone manufacturing community releasing the design standards and specifications for RID that anyone creating a receiver app would need to know.

I don't see why drone manufactures would create these type of receiver apps. I do see that companies that manufacture and sell counter-drone technology and equipment would do so and include in the suite of products. Once RID is fully implemented after 2023 it would be a selling point to potential customers. Basically as a way for the end-user to document that the drone they took out of the sky was potentially hostile - if a drone in 2024 is is flying without RID its operator has gone to some length to do so and for some intentional reason (possibly nefarious) would be the logic.

For example at the Los Alamos National Lab - which is spread of 40 square miles in northern New Mexico - this whole are is a no drone zone, big Dept of Energy warning signs dot the area. I could see in the future the company that's selling the Lab millions of dollars worth of anti-drone disablement equipment providing the Lab's heavily armed Protective Force officers a "free" smart device apps for determining if a drone violating Lab airspace is squawking RID - if so, the go find the operator and have a chat... if not, they immediately can classify the drown as a threat and bring it down without hesitation and have the signal documentation captured on the smart phone to justify their actions.

 

[BigAl07]

I'll have to take your work that app developers are already working on apps to receive and display RID transmissions. Although there's noting on the FAA website drone industry page (Remote ID for Industry and Standards Bodies) about the private sector drone manufacturing community releasing the design standards and specifications for RID that anyone creating a receiver app would need to know.

Vic and I both are already testing one such application although it's very early in it's life cycle due to the "standards" not yet defined. Apps will come and range from simple "hobbyist" info all the way up to Law Enforcement type of information.


For those stating the Industry is going to fail/bust and the #'s are already declining because of potential RID requirements are wrong. The majority of UAS flying today won't be flying in 24+ months. Crashing, loss of interest, new technology, and the deep desire to have the Latest & Greatest will necitate new units being purchased. Some of us (myself included) do tend to hang onto older models but that's not really the "norm" today.

 

[Vic Moss]

It appears that it will be up to the RID module manufacturer to provide notice to the operator of a malfunction. Hopefully, that notification will be integrated into the associated control app (i.e.; DJI Fly). Reasonable assumption for drones with integrated modules, when they become available.

The module will not be integrated into the control board on the RID Module drones. There will be a simple notification if the RID module is working. It will them be up to the person controlling the drone as to whether they can lift off. Hint: they're not supposed to. The Standard RID drones will be integrated into the flight controller and prevent lift off in the case of an RID failure.

May be more challenging for addon modules. Could the addon module pass the failure notice to the drone which would relay it to the control app? That would eliminate the need for a separate communications path, special receiver on the smartphone, and another app.

As above, the module will not have that option. If that was required, it would make them essentially impossible to produce and keep the dost down and the installation easy. Especially when it comes to moving the module between aircraft.

The reason for the smartphone app only approach is to keep the costs down as well. LEO and Security Agencies are the ones that are driving this, and they want to make sure there aren't any additional costs or dongles necessary to receive the RID output.

Looks like notification could simply be a flashing icon on the app alerting the operator to bring the drone home.

For the Modules, that will be the likely notification.

 

[Vic Moss]

For those stating the Industry is going to fail/bust and the #'s are already declining because of potential RID requirements are wrong.

100% agree. There will be some hesitancy, but once all of the pieces come together, it will work itself out. Those who are doom and gloom don't understand the process.

If anything, the publication of the new rules last month have created a slight bump in sales, because they put to rest the uncertainty and fear of the unknown because we didn't know what was coming down the pike.

Now we know, and we don't have to worry. If I had to replace a drone of mine right now, I wouldn't hesitate in the slightest.

 

[PacificSkyDreamn]

Vic and I both are already testing one such application although it's very early in it's life cycle due to the "standards" not yet defined. Apps will come and range from simple "hobbyist" info all the way up to Law Enforcement type of information.

Thanks for the update, it's good to hear some facts. As you can probably tell from my posts, I'm not very concerned about RID. I'm new to the hobby having bought my first drone - MA2 - last August, and fly for 20 minutes or so at least once a week as practice. I suspect if I'm still flying in 2 years I'll be ready to buy a new drone with RID - even if RID had not been implemented I probably would be looking to get a new drone just assuming there'll be more technological improvements to the Mavic Air line by then.

 

[Vic Moss]

Thanks for the update, it's good to hear some facts. As you can probably tell from my posts, I'm not very concerned about RID. I'm new to the hobby having bought my first drone - MA2 - last August, and fly for 20 minutes or so at least once a week as practice. I suspect if I'm still flying in 2 years I'll be ready to buy a new drone with RID - even if RID had not been implemented I probably would be looking to get a new drone just assuming there'll be more technological improvements to the Mavic Air line by then.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. I'm here to help.

 

[Vic Moss]

I don't see why drone manufactures would create these type of receiver apps. I do see that companies that manufacture and sell counter-drone technology and equipment would do so and include in the suite of products. Once RID is fully implemented after 2023 it would be a selling point to potential customers. Basically as a way for the end-user to document that the drone they took out of the sky was potentially hostile - if a drone in 2024 is is flying without RID its operator has gone to some length to do so and for some intentional reason (possibly nefarious) would be the logic.

RID will not make it legal for people to take our drones out of the sky. That legal ability will remain with a very select group of Federal Alphabet agencies. The use of such devices will still be a violation of USC18-32.

If anyone uses lack of and RID signature to justify taking a drone out of the sky (above agencies excluded), they will find themselves on the wrong side of a very unpleasant visit from men and women who travel in unmarked black SUVs and carry badges.

 

[PacificSkyDreamn]

RID will not make it legal for people to take our drones out of the sky. That legal ability will remain with a very select group of Federal Alphabet agencies. The use of such devices will still be a violation of USC18-32.

If anyone uses lack of and RID signature to justify taking a drone out of the sky (above agencies excluded), they will find themselves on the wrong side of a very unpleasant visit from men and women who travel in unmarked black SUVs and carry badges.

Hi Vic, my point was that it will be law enforcement or private security at federally recognized critical infrastructure facilities (e.g., Los Alamos Lab, Y-12, Pantex Plant, NASA/JPL, one of the 100+ nuclear power plants in the US, etc) that would be taking drown a non-RID drone violating their airspace and justifying their actions based on potential hostile intent of the drone operator who intentionally modified their aircraft to not transmit RID. I would agree that if a member of the general public shot down a non-RID drone they would be violating federal law. Nor do I think that local law enforcement (police officer, sheriff deputy, park ranger, etc) would be authorized or justified taking doing a non-RID drone that is no where near a critical infrastructure facility - say just in a park or beach... but you never know.

 

[BigAl07]

.....Nor do I think that local law enforcement (police officer, sheriff deputy, park ranger, etc) would be authorized or justified taking doing a non-RID drone that is no where near a critical infrastructure facility - say just in a park or beach... but you never know.

Keep in mind that all Law Enforcement are being trained in what they can and CAN'T do in terms of UAS operations etc. Unless the UAS poses a real threat to person etc it will not be considered hostile etc. It's not a perfect world and there are "Bad actors" in every industry but I can assure you the FAA is going to great lengths to help educate Law Enforcement and John Q. Public across the country.