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I think my City/City Parks Dept are giving me a hard time, please advise

Duke_Mulligan

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Hi all,

New Mavic Air 2 pilot here. Wonderful piece of technology. I'm Hobbyist FAA registered, just getting that out of the way first.

I wanted to take my first flight at a large city park yesterday, so beforehand I checked the city and parks department websites, B4UFLY, as well as just some google reading, to make sure there weren't any restrictions in that spot, and found nothing holding me back. I took two 6-ish minute flights. When I was reviewing my footage later, as I landed at the end of flight 2, there was a city parks department truck parked a ways behind me, in a way that looked like he may have been watching me. On the other hand, it was lunch time, so I figured maybe he was just taking his lunch, as there were a few other cars in the lot apparently doing the same. Now, like I said, I didn't notice this until afterwards on the video, they never approached me or anything. Today I flew at a different large city park, and whaddya know, at the end of my flight, I see another parks department truck parked behind me, again like they were watching me, but no contact. Whatever, I had to get back to work, but as I left, he followed me out of the park until I had gotten back on the street.

Now, the basic info on these flights are, I believe I followed all the rules. Class G airspace, in both cases there were very few people in the park period, and I was definitely maintaining a safe distance from them, proper altitude, within visual distance of myself, etc. I did take off and land from the parking lot, but in fact, I actually took off and landed on the hard tonneau of my truck on day 1, and then proceeded directly over a frozen pond, not having to cross over any other cars, even though they were parked and either empty or drivers just sitting inside (it's cold here), and by coincidence, same thing today, parked near a pond and then took off and flew over it. When I landed, someone had parked next to me, so I landed on the other side of my truck, and there were additional open spaces past that.

So, having a funny feeling in my gut, I called the parks department to inquire, and got redirected to city hall. When I asked the rep if drones are allowed in city parks, he stated that they are not, and this is the part that really makes me question it - he said drones aren't allowed because FAA regulations state that drones can't be flown inside the limits of any city because they are a highly populated area, and also because FAA regulations prohibit flying in public parks.

Now, being a new pilot, I don't know the rules inside and out, but the pre-flight, and now post-flight, research I've done don't agree with this. I see no such language from the FAA. Additionally, I live in Michigan, and the law states that municipalities cannot create their own regulations on UAS use, pilots are only required to follow FAA guidelines.

So, my first question is, am I out of line legally, or are they either uninformed, or just trying to intimidate pilots out of flying?

And, second question, what should I do if I have the right to fly in these areas? I would prefer not to stir up a hornet's nest if they're going to watch me all the time and try to report me to the FAA for some technicality, but also wonder if I should just contact them directly and inform them of the law and see what they say. That is, if I'm even correct about it.

TIA!
 
I'm going to bed but, it looks like your local authorities again are GREATLY overstepping and feeding you nonsense. The gang will be in shortly to fill you in..I will check back tomorrow to see the new fun thread...darn east coast..past my bedtime.
 
That stuff about "FAA regulations state that drones can't be flown inside the limits of any city because they are a highly populated area, and also because FAA regulations prohibit flying in public parks" doesn't correct at all. I'm not aware of any FAA regulation that even comes close to saying something like that.
(Countries other than the US have different rules, I believe in Canada, their equivalent of the FAA does indeed say that drones should not be flown over "populated areas")

The FAA can indeed regulate when and where you can fly, but there are no such blanket bans on all cities or public parks. As you mentioned you did your due diligence and confirmed the areas you flew in were class G airspace, so as far as the FAA goes you should be OK.

Cities however can regulate where you can take off, land, and operate a drone. If they have an ordinance that says "no flying at public parks" then legally that means they can prevent you from taking off, landing, and operating a drone within city parks. However, just flying over a park in a safe, FAA-approved manner, is something that (to my knowledge) they could not legally prevent, so as long as you were operating the drone outside of a city park property. The reason they cannot do this is because this would be regulating the airspace, something that the FAA claims to have the sole authority to do within the US.

However, there's what you can do that's legally right and what you can do that's practically right. Practically, if they don't want you flying there, don't fly there, unless you are willing to wage a potentially long and expensive legal battle.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.
 
That stuff about "FAA regulations state that drones can't be flown inside the limits of any city because they are a highly populated area, and also because FAA regulations prohibit flying in public parks" doesn't correct at all. I'm not aware of any FAA regulation that even comes close to saying something like that.
(Countries other than the US have different rules, I believe in Canada, their equivalent of the FAA does indeed say that drones should not be flown over "populated areas")

The FAA can indeed regulate when and where you can fly, but there are no such blanket bans on all cities or public parks. As you mentioned you did your due diligence and confirmed the areas you flew in were class G airspace, so as far as the FAA goes you should be OK.

Cities however can regulate where you can take off, land, and operate a drone. If they have an ordinance that says "no flying at public parks" then legally that means they can prevent you from taking off, landing, and operating a drone within city parks. However, just flying over a park in a safe, FAA-approved manner, is something that (to my knowledge) they could not legally prevent, so as long as you were operating the drone outside of a city park property. The reason they cannot do this is because this would be regulating the airspace, something that the FAA claims to have the sole authority to do within the US.

However, there's what you can do that's legally right and what you can do that's practically right. Practically, if they don't want you flying there, don't fly there, unless you are willing to wage a potentially long and expensive legal battle.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

Yeah, I definitely agree with not wanting to get into any legal battles, or just giving the parks department and city an undue hard time, as I believe they're good guys on the whole. I'm considering giving them the info from the FAA and state, and seeing what they say, just to get a feel for their attitude. If they back off and don't fuss as long as I'm behaving when I fly, that would be nice, but if they really try to fight it, I'm just not going there.

Regarding take-off, landing, and operation, this is what the state law says:
"Except as expressly authorized by statute, a political subdivision [city, township, etc] shall not enact or enforce an ordinance or resolution that regulates the ownership or operation of unmanned aircraft or otherwise engage in the regulation of the ownership or operation of unmanned aircraft." So I would hope that saying "no regulation in the operation of unmanned aircraft" means no restrictions on city property. Hopefully some of my fellow Michiganders can chime in with their experiences!
 
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Hi all,

New Mavic Air 2 pilot here. Wonderful piece of technology. I'm Hobbyist FAA registered, just getting that out of the way first.

I wanted to take my first flight at a large city park yesterday, so beforehand I checked the city and parks department websites, B4UFLY, as well as just some google reading, to make sure there weren't any restrictions in that spot, and found nothing
So here is how I put this into perspective. Lets say the flight is all legal like,
You find yourself flying and a Park Employee tell you that you cannot fly there. You can recite the 10 commandments to him or you can just move on , you dont move on he calls the police.

Option #2 you just fly , do your thing , maybe take a snap shot of FAA approval , and a Cop comes up and asks you not to fly , you show him your bag of tricks and he says , you need to move on. You need to go.

So letting everyone know that has no business in your world is 100% the wrong thing to do because it make no difference if someone is going to ask you leave, no one cares that your app says you have the Golden Ticket to fly because most people in charge are going to go with I would Prefer you did not fly here.

This is why you get in do your flight , dont draw a lot of attention with UFO lights , as long as you know your legal that is the only thing that matters , but when the time comes to end the flight , you simply end it ....


Less Is More always:
One other note if people come up to you and ask you why your flying a drone you simply tell them your practicing for search and rescue and to see if this is area has a good signal to be put on the List.

This has always worked for me and shuts down any other arguments that could come up.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly your Mavic in the Rain /Snow
 
So here is how I put this into perspective. Lets say the flight is all legal like,
You find yourself flying and a Park Employee tell you that you cannot fly there. You can recite the 10 commandments to him or you can just move on , you dont move on he calls the police.

Option #2 you just fly , do your thing , maybe take a snap shot of FAA approval , and a Cop comes up and asks you not to fly , you show him your bag of tricks and he says , you need to move on. You need to go.

So letting everyone know that has no business in your world is 100% the wrong thing to do because it make no difference if someone is going to ask you leave, no one cares that your app says you have the Golden Ticket to fly because most people in charge are going to go with I would Prefer you did not fly here.

This is why you get in do your flight , dont draw a lot of attention with UFO lights , as long as you know your legal that is the only thing that matters , but when the time comes to end the flight , you simply end it ....


Less Is More always:
One other note if people come up to you and ask you why your flying a drone you simply tell them your practicing for search and rescue and to see if this is area has a good signal to be put on the List.

This has always worked for me and shuts down any other arguments that could come up.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly your Mavic in the Rain /Snow
Yes, I should clarify, when I say “see what they say,” thinking more so along the lines of sending an email to the parks department, not pushing my luck when someone shows up and asks me to leave. A “win” for me in this scenario would be, parks department reviews FAA/state regulations and states I am allowed to fly, and then if a park employee or police officer shows up and asks me to leave, no problem, but if necessary, a copy of that permission is my safety net against getting my drone confiscated, should they think I shouldn’t even have been there in the first place.
 
Your going to find that your Get out of Jail free card, is only going to apply when something bad happens with your drone and if you had the right to fly , your looking at trouble but if you did not have the right to fly a possible lawsuit.

Your going to find that No one is going to take your drone even if you did not have the right to fly. There just going to ask you to cease and desist.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly your Mavic in the Rain /Snow
 
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The problem you encountered was not talking to the right person when you called. You got an off the cuff defensive opinion, the person you spoke to was ‘never’ going to say, ‘no problem, crack on and fly where you like was he?

You should ask “who is it that knows drone regulations,” and don’t stop until you get a yes and then you cannot be sure!
 
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Sadly I can't give you anything more concrete than what others have posted but after having lived in GR for almost a decade I know all too well how messed up things are. They want to be a big city but have a small town mind on a lot of subjects and it sounds like this is one of them. If the state says the municipalities can't enforce stricter laws but City hall is doing just that it will be an uphill fight that will cost you loads of time and money you'll never get back. Best to know the actual law and then 'fly in ignorance' of what they are interpreting it to be. What I mean is that if you know, without a shadow of a doubt, that they can't enforce any No Fly beyond what's around GRF airport then keep flying until asked to stop. When they do want to stop you just apologize, tell them you looked everywhere on the GR and MI websites, used the FAA B4uFly app, Yada Yada Yada and didn't see anything so you thought you were OK. Pack up and go home or somewhere else. This only works for so long though if you keep flying in the same locations and or they take down your name. Best of luck to you.
 
If your city bans drones in the park - they should have signs posted in easily seen entrances and such. If they don't, then go fly. Their responsibility to properly sign places they don't want drones to fly if there is even an ordinance against it.

I've been to a few state parks that do not allow drone flight (take off / landing inside the park), but they do have very visible signage.

Unless the city (cities) provide info to the "fly apps" - then the app won't know - so that is not a 100% failsafe on flying. I'd also bet had there been an real ordinance, the city workers there in the park would know and should have spoken to you to clarify the rules. Since they did not - then there may not be such a rule.

As stated - don't be confrontational with anyone if they inform you of no drones allowed. Simply thank them for the info and be on your way. Follow up afterwards to be sure.
 
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This is great. Thanks for finding this.

However I still agree with others: Don't draw attention to yourself and don't look to make this a legal case (even if you are ultimately right) unless you are willing to spend the time and effort to win a legal battle.

Even this case, which it seems a clear case of the county violating state law (how could this county just claim they were exempt from state law?) took one year to resolve completely in the courts, and the drone operator was "handcuffed, detained, and had his drone and other accessories confiscated".

That is not a pleasant experience to go through, and so I commend this operator and MCDO for putting in the effort and cost to fight this legal battle.
 
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If your city bans drones in the park - they should have signs posted in easily seen entrances and such. If they don't, then go fly. Their responsibility to properly sign places they don't want drones to fly if there is even an ordinance against it.

I've been to a few state parks that do not allow drone flight (take off / landing inside the park), but they do have very visible signage.

Unless the city (cities) provide info to the "fly apps" - then the app won't know - so that is not a 100% failsafe on flying. I'd also bet had there been an real ordinance, the city workers there in the park would know and should have spoken to you to clarify the rules. Since they did not - then there may not be such a rule.

As stated - don't be confrontational with anyone if they inform you of no drones allowed. Simply thank them for the info and be on your way. Follow up afterwards to be sure.

Solid advice, thank you!
 
This is great. Thanks for finding this.

However I still agree with others: Don't draw attention to yourself and don't look to make this a legal case (even if you are ultimately right) unless you are willing to spend the time and effort to win a legal battle.

Even this case, which it seems a clear case of the county violating state law (how could this county just claim they were exempt from state law?) took one year to resolve completely in the courts, and the drone operator was "handcuffed, detained, and had his drone and other accessories confiscated".

That is not a pleasant experience to go through, and so I commend this operator and MCDO for putting in the effort and cost to fight this legal battle.

Yeah, I’m definitely not looking to take this fight to city hall and press the matter. Just want to be sure they don’t try to rain down a bunch of fines or FAA case against me for doing what’s within my rights!
 
Yeah, I’m definitely not looking to take this fight to city hall and press the matter. Just want to be sure they don’t try to rain down a bunch of fines or FAA case against me for doing what’s within my rights!
I use this document as a “ice breaker” tool. After someone has read it, I can tell if they have a confrontational anti drone mentality or they are just curious. Then I can make a decision to walk or talk. ➰

42F71816-489B-42DD-A3B5-D25E8610A445.jpeg
 
One question for Duke. While you saw a park's truck (in a park) did anyone actually approach you? If not, it could be a coincidence or a misinformed park employee who thought you were up to no good and was watching you. People sometimes react weirdly to drones.
 
One question for Duke. While you saw a park's truck (in a park) did anyone actually approach you? If not, it could be a coincidence or a misinformed park employee who thought you were up to no good and was watching you. People sometimes react weirdly to drones.

No, the employee didn’t approach me either time. Since they didn’t the first time, I assumed it was a coincidence, but the second time they were definitely keeping an eye on me, because they didn’t park in an actual parking spot, just kind of hovered behind me in the lot, and then stayed right on my bumper all the way out.
 
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City/county/state park managers have to deal with different groups of people and their hobbies. What they respond to is public interactions in their jurisdictions. Some of these managers only want the public to play nice together however (like many of the general public), some don't actually know about FAA flight rules. Many simply respond to complaints and that is when the signs come out...legal or not. They also have to deal with out of compliance flights. We have a lot of small parks that the city has no drone restrictions at but common sense says suggests taking a drone to one of the dedicated dog parks would be a poor move even if you can. There is a very large county park north of my city that allows UAV flights. The fixed wing, racing drone, and FPV crowd seem to cooperate together most of the time and most respect the parks main rule... do not bother others. It seems to work. The first time I flew there I called and asked if there were any specific rules and the manager was very thankful I asked. His main concern with any UAV operation was not to bug folks using the park, staying within VLOS, not flying over roads, cars, or people, and if there is one tractor mowing the grass or any workers in the field, we have to find a vacant field to fly over. And although I had to ask about the specific flight rules not mentioned, they had other rules posted we have to follow:



  • No outside food or drink allowed. Just water allowed.
  • No pets allowed.
  • NO SEEDS or shells allowed -Strictly Enforced.
  • No bikes, skateboards, or anything like it allowed.
  • No Metal Cleats on the mounds. This is for all ages!
  • No smoking.
  • No vandalizing the facilities or plants and trees.
  • No overnight RVs.

I'm one to avoid conflict with park workers or the public, but if the park is large enough to play together, perhaps you can find a different park that does allow UAV operations to show it as an example to what might be able to work at your park. Asking as a club or group might help convince them to allow some type of hobby flight. Just a thought.
 
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