Mavic 3 Cine Normal Prores v DLOG Prores

[collins]

So I am really interested as to whether DLOG ProRes (as opposed to normal ProRes) is really necessary on the Mavic 3 Cine. I really dont have enough experience with ProRes to test this properly myself.

I have been using normal ProRes. It does have a number of advantages.
1. Cleaner view on the Pro Controller (which doesnt have a lut emulator) (Also easier to expose correctly)
2. More flexibility with isos. The high isos of DLOG Prores means NDs which then makes shooting stills at low isos tricky.
3. I sort of consider ProRes 'raw' and nobody shoots stills in 'raw' with Log
4. There seems quite a lot of dynamic range in normal prores, colors are a good starting point.

The advantages of DLOG should be much better dynamic range (and honestly it isnt that much of a hassle to throw a lut on in post.)

So what are users thoughts on this?

 

[brett8883]

So I am really interested as to whether DLOG ProRes (as opposed to normal ProRes) is really necessary on the Mavic 3 Cine. I really dont have enough experience with ProRes to test this properly myself.

I agree with your overall message. ProRes 422 HQ rec 709 gives you plenty of latitude and exposing for the highlights will give you more than enough room in most cases.

I have been using normal ProRes. It does have a number of advantages.
1. Cleaner view on the Pro Controller (which doesnt have a lut emulator) (Also easier to expose correctly)

True. This should get fixed at some point but yea it’s a massive inconvenience.

2. More flexibility with isos. The high isos of DLOG Prores means NDs which then makes shooting stills at low isos tricky.

You don’t want to actually expose differently because of the higher ISO. The higher ISO just pulls the midtones up to a higher IRE value that you would bring down in post. Remember that ISO isn’t actually part of exposure. It’s just applying more gain to the exposure. Your log will look overexposed in camera but that’s how you want it with log.

3. I sort of consider ProRes 'raw' and nobody shoots stills in 'raw' with Log

RAW and ProRes are two totally and completely different things that aren’t mutually exclusive. ProRes just refers to the codec and compression of the image. You can have raw that uses ProRes compression and codec ie ProRes RAW. These are totally different concepts that shouldn’t be confused. Nothing about ProRes 422 HQ is raw or more like raw than h.264 other than raw tends to be less compressed like ProRes. Nobody shoots still photos in log because by definition you can’t shoot raw in log. Your line of thought doesn’t work here.

4. There seems quite a lot of dynamic range in normal prores, colors are a good starting point.

Agreed but what I am not totally clear on though is if normal color ProRes gets encoded as 8 bit or 10 bit on the Mavic 3. There would be your big difference maker. But yea I think your are right to question if D-Log is really worth it if recording ProRes on the Mavic 3

 

[collins]

Thanks for that detailed response.

I checked the codec information in VLC of one of my files. Appears to be 10 bit (see attached.)

 

[Saladshooter]

Agreed but what I am not totally clear on though is if normal color ProRes gets encoded as 8 bit or 10 bit on the Mavic 3. There would be your big difference maker. But yea I think your are right to question if D-Log is really worth it if recording ProRes on the Mavic 3

The 8-bit color Normal profile will be encoded as 10-bit ProRes on the Mavic 3. Color information can't be invented to fill in the gaps so you will get the best output that the Normal profile can provide but no more. The difference between 8-bit and 10-bit is literally a billion colors so there is a real reason to use LOG however the current reality is that most of the screens that we view on are not really capable of showing the difference. If what you are filming is worth saving for posterity then it may be worth using 10-bit color for viewing in the future as display technology catches up. LOG also gives you much more ability to maximize your dynamic range, recover detail, edit color and set a correct color temperature

 

[Dave Maine]

ProRes in it’s various flavors is a very edit friendly codec. Every frame is completely encoded, unlike h264 and h265, so even lower powered computers can play it at it’s specified frame rate in real time.

After finishing the edit, you can export it to whatever delivery codec you want h264 and h265 are both available.

The only downside is that ProRes takes up 6x + disc space.

 

[dmdomokos]

The bitrate for H264 and H265 are unclear in the specs. 200mb each? Or 120mb for H265. The other advantage to ProRes is the extremely high bit rate. 3860mb I think?

 

[Saladshooter]

The other advantage to ProRes is the extremely high bit rate. 3860mb I think?

ProRes and the SSD inside the Mavic 3 Cine are both capable of an extremely high bitrate, but the target bitrate is only 220Mbps at HD quality. This means the bitrate may go much higher for a short amount of time, particularly when there is rapid movement or complex details to encode. h264 and h265 on the other hand are capped at 200Mbps which at least on paper, limits their ability.

My guess is that in practice most folks can't see the difference between the Mavic 3's ProRes and 10-bit h264/h265. The real advantage of the ProRes is to be able to seamlessly use the Mavic 3 in a professional workflow where the format is king. Its really a creative professional's tool and overkill for most pilots.

 

[brett8883]

The 8-bit color Normal profile will be encoded as 10-bit ProRes on the Mavic 3. Color information can't be invented to fill in the gaps so you will get the best output that the Normal profile can provide but no more. The difference between 8-bit and 10-bit is literally a billion colors so there is a real reason to use LOG however the current reality is that most of the screens that we view on are not really capable of showing the difference. If what you are filming is worth saving for posterity then it may be worth using 10-bit color for viewing in the future as display technology catches up. LOG also gives you much more ability to maximize your dynamic range, recover detail, edit color and set a correct color temperature

Yea the 10 bit makes a big difference. Does the M3 have 10-bit HLG color like the M2 Pro? That would be my preference. The biggest issue with D-log is DJI hasn’t done a good job of making D log consistent and their LUT is only good for rec 709 transforms so if you are using an HDR workflow it’s more difficult than it should be.

If you have HLG on the other hand, that is ACES compliant, natively works in an HDR environment, and the display color in the live view would be acceptable for judging exposure.

 

[Saladshooter]

Does the M3 have 10-bit HLG color like the M2 Pro?

No HLG yet.... I think its coming in a January update.

 

[brett8883]

No HLG yet.... I think its coming in a January update.

Then I would probably use D-Log for now and then HLG when it comes available. @christangey uses HLG and he has the best drone videos I know of and he doesn’t have the benefit of ProRes recording on his M2Pro.

Hope he doesn’t mind me sharing one of his videos

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[collins]

Phillip Bloom makes some interesting observations on Normal v D-Log Prores from the Mavic 3 cine.

1. The Normal Prores is genuine 10 bit (as opposed to 8 bit packaged in 10 bit as one poster suggested.) This is different from the 'normal' on the Mavic 3 which is 8 bit 4.2.0. So good news.

2. However, he makes the point that the 'Normal ProRes' is overly sharpened (and sharpening is difficult to get rid of.) Obviously we dont have the ability to reduce the sharpening in the app as we did with the Mavic 2 Pro. Looking at my footage I can definitely see his point.

So I will probably move to D-Log when DJI introduces the lut emulator in a future firmware update. On this subject Phillip said the lut emulator was on the first Mavic 3 Cine that he received but then taken away at final release - which means we should get it once they have ironed out the kinks,

 

[Saladshooter]

1. The Normal Prores is genuine 10 bit (as opposed to 8 bit packaged in 10 bit as one poster suggested.) This is different from the 'normal' on the Mavic 3 which is 8 bit 4.2.0.

Bloom is referencing the ProRes encode which will always be 10-bit, 422 color no matter what its fed. Someone needs to use a scope to look at the ProRes output from the Mavic 3 Cine to see if it has the required 1024 shades per primary or if it is just stretching the Normal profile out as I suggested earlier. I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

 

[christangey]

Then I would probably use D-Log for now and then HLG when it comes available. @christangey uses HLG and he has the best drone videos I know of and he doesn’t have the benefit of ProRes recording on his M2Pro.

Hope he doesn’t mind me sharing one of his videos

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That's ok Brett, Just back from holidays where I bought a Mavic 3. A quick look at the footage and d-log is quite the disappointment so far. Way too "loggy" on the shoot end making it dangerous to come close to objects and on the edit end a weird color space that I just don't like, as the "Star-trekkin" song would say "it's 10-bit Jim, but not as we know it". I am really hoping HLG does turn up on January 22 and is as it is configured in the M2P.

 

[christangey]

Yea the 10 bit makes a big difference. Does the M3 have 10-bit HLG color like the M2 Pro? That would be my preference. The biggest issue with D-log is DJI hasn’t done a good job of making D log consistent and their LUT is only good for rec 709 transforms so if you are using an HDR workflow it’s more difficult than it should be.

If you have HLG on the other hand, that is ACES compliant, natively works in an HDR environment, and the display color in the live view would be acceptable for judging exposure.

the other thing for pros Brett is that many broadcasters want HDR compatible footage

 

[christangey]

ProRes in it’s various flavors is a very edit friendly codec. Every frame is completely encoded, unlike h264 and h265, so even lower powered computers can play it at it’s specified frame rate in real time.

After finishing the edit, you can export it to whatever delivery codec you want h264 and h265 are both available.

The only downside is that ProRes takes up 6x + disc space.

and that is a huge downside

 

[brett8883]

the other thing for pros Brett is that many broadcasters want HDR compatible footage

Yep exactly

 

[brett8883]

That's ok Brett, Just back from holidays where I bought a Mavic 3. A quick look at the footage and d-log is quite the disappointment so far. Way too "loggy" on the shoot end making it dangerous to come close to objects and on the edit end a weird color space that I just don't like, as the "Star-trekkin" song would say "it's 10-bit Jim, but not as we know it". I am really hoping HLG does turn up on January 22 and is as it is configured in the M2P.

What made you break down and get one? I thought you were gung ho on not getting one

 

[christangey]

What made you break down and get one? I thought you were gung ho on not getting one

No, I have never said that, I said I was not going to buy the Cine version ...and I didn't.

 

[brett8883]

No, I have never said that, I said I was not going to buy the Cine version ...and I didn't.

Oh gotcha. How do you like it so far minus the dlog?

 

[christangey]

Oh gotcha. How do you like it so far minus the dlog?

I have quite a few thoughts Brett but not the time to go through all the nuances right now, and I would rather go the whole way than post something half-baked. Plus I have to dwell on it all and go through the footage properly. I might post something separately when I get all that together, but thanks for asking!