Mavic mini not suitable for autonomous flight?

[BadWolf1]

Or maybe (e) DJI did something rather stupid with the Mini that's costing them a lot of sales and ill will. Nah, that's unthinkable.

Really that's "none of (a)-(d) but ... "

In product planning, you sit down and say "How many possible buyers for the product will we lose if we cut this / gain if we add this.". I have been in meetings where someone says "Customers want feature X" , and the reply comes back "Yes, but if we include X the price goes up 10%, and that costs more customers", or "Including X will delay it by a year" or "Including X means cutting Y to make some other target". At different times I have won and lost arguments , been on both add feature and omit feature sides and seen the decisions proved right and wrong.
Those who really care about a feature often see it as core to success when it isn't. Either DJI did the research to show this choice would cost few sales and little ill will, or that was decided on gut instinct. Possibly their estimate was wrong enough to label the decision a mistake, but I think that's unlikely. (But also those don't really care about a feature see it as not core to success when it is)

 

[Deleted member 114292]

Really that's "none of (a)-(d) but ... "

In product planning, you sit down and say "How many possible buyers for the product will we lose if we cut this / gain if we add this.". I have been in meetings where someone says "Customers want feature X" , and the reply comes back "Yes, but if we include X the price goes up 10%, and that costs more customers", or "Including X will delay it by a year" or "Including X means cutting Y to make some other target". At different times I have won and lost arguments , been on both add feature and omit feature sides and seen the decisions proved right and wrong.
Those who really care about a feature often see it as core to success when it isn't. Either DJI did the research to show this choice would cost few sales and little ill will, or that was decided on gut instinct. Possibly their estimate was wrong enough to label the decision a mistake, but I think that's unlikely. (But also those don't really care about a feature see it as not core to success when it is)

Again you nailed it.
I work with product managers on features as well and all those are considerations we have to take into account.
Towards the end of a release cycle even an extra week is enough to nix a feature.
I can assure you at DJI if you can't "prove" ROI on a feature it ain't gonna happen. Too often people think a software feature is "free" after you develop it, but what they forget is that there is still ongoing maintenance and QA effort involved as well.

Take for example support of Mini on SC.

How could you argue that a significant number of customers who bought the least expensive drone are gonna fork over 700.00 for an SC?
Sure a few would but not enough to get ROI, a tough one to win.

How many mini sales would be lost because it does not work with SC?
Since the mini is mostly bought by first time customers, who don't know or care about SC close to zero.
In fact if it pushes them to a higher end drone so much the better - you lost that one.

 

[RogerDH]

Really that's "none of (a)-(d) but ... "

In product planning, you sit down and say "How many possible buyers for the product will we lose if we cut this / gain if we add this.". I have been in meetings where someone says "Customers want feature X" , and the reply comes back "Yes, but if we include X the price goes up 10%, and that costs more customers", or "Including X will delay it by a year" or "Including X means cutting Y to make some other target". At different times I have won and lost arguments , been on both add feature and omit feature sides and seen the decisions proved right and wrong.
Those who really care about a feature often see it as core to success when it isn't. Either DJI did the research to show this choice would cost few sales and little ill will, or that was decided on gut instinct. Possibly their estimate was wrong enough to label the decision a mistake, but I think that's unlikely. (But also those don't really care about a feature see it as not core to success when it is)

I'm not sure if you're contradicting my explanation or expounding on it.

 

[ff22]

"Why" could be any combination of
(a) Omitting certain features allowed simpler / lighter / cheaper hardware (it might need more RAM to do X) .
(b) Omitting those features reduced the cost of testing/validation.
(c) Market research showed buyers of sub 250g / $500 drones did not attach value to those features
(d) Market research showed prospective buyers of more expensive drones would switch to the cheap one if it had those features.

From DJI's point of view including a feature might increase customer satisfaction, but I don't think they get a cut from software sales, and a mostly happy Mini owner who buys a second drone as an upgrade is the best outcome for them. I have a feeling the lack of raw photo support is in that category.

I am probably one of those that "did not attach value to that feature". I purchased my Zoom without knowing anything about Litchi or any similar product. At that time, the Zoom did not have a 'mission' feature. So it did not control my purchase. Similarly, with the Mini, it did not control my purchase. Now being oblivious might not be smart but I'm sure many folks merely want a flying camera as well as a new fun sport. Sure after the fact, some might really grouse at this missing feature. But I suspect it is not an overwhelming number but I could be wrong.

 

[maelstrom]

Or maybe (e) DJI did something rather stupid with the Mini that's costing them a lot of sales and ill will. Nah, that's unthinkable.

But, like everyone else, you bought your MM knowing that it didn’t support things like waypoints or follow me. At no point did DJI ever say they would add these features later. Why did you buy it if these missing features were so important to you? I bought my Mini knowing its limitations and I’m very pleased with my purchase. I wanted a capable, ultra-portable drone with a decent camera and that’s what I got. No one else offers a drone this small with a comparable feature set and DJI’s reputation.

 

[RogerDH]

But, like everyone else, you bought your MM knowing that it didn’t support things like waypoints or follow me. At no point did DJI ever say they would add these features later. Why did you buy it if these missing features were so important to you? I bought my Mini knowing its limitations and I’m very pleased with my purchase. I wanted a capable, ultra-portable drone with a decent camera and that’s what I got. No one else offers a drone this small with a comparable feature set and DJI’s reputation.

I knew it didn't have ActiveTrack because nearly every review on YouTube mentioned that, and I don't care about that at all. But not a single review that I saw mentioned that it didn't have waypoints, and never did it occur to me that it wouldn't - I thought return to home and waypoints are the two fundamental functions that all GPS drones have, as they're both based on the same autonomous navigation ability. People keep explaining to me why the Mini doesn't have obstacle avoidance or OcuSync, as if I'm stupid, but nobody has given me what I consider a reasonable answer for why DJI left out the fairly modest amount of code it would take on top of the abilities that the Mini obviously does have.

Anyway, you're missing my point here, which was that not supporting waypoints is costing them sales, except of course to dumb people like me who didn't check first. ActiveTrack is the biggie, and I absolutely guarantee you that DJI is losing a lot of sales because all the Mini's competitors (and even most of the much cheaper drones) have some sort of Follow. Most people may not care, but those who know how useful waypoints are for a lot of things are not buying the Mini if they know it doesn't support them. It could well be that 90% of buyers don't care, but the business question should be why should you let those other 10% walk away -- or deprive at least some of the other 90% the pleasant surprise of discovering the ability. Despite the imaginary accounts of extensive marketing research, I simply do not believe that supporting waypoints would have cost them more than it would be worth in extra sales, or that it would cost them many sales of high-end drones that actually do have premium features the Mini can never have.

 

[BadWolf1]

I knew it didn't have ActiveTrack because nearly every review ...

But not a single review that I saw mentioned that it didn't have waypoints, and never did it occur to me that it wouldn't - I thought return to home and waypoints are the two fundamental functions that all GPS drones have, as they're both based on the same autonomous navigation ability. ... nobody has given me what I consider a reasonable answer for why DJI left out the fairly modest amount of code it would take on top of the abilities that the Mini obviously does have.

ActiveTrack is the biggie, and I absolutely guarantee you that DJI is losing a lot of sales because all the Mini's competitors (and even most of the much cheaper drones) have some sort of Follow.

those who know how useful waypoints are for a lot of things are not buying the Mini... It could well be that 90% of buyers don't care, but the business question should be why should you let those other 10% walk away -- or deprive at least some of the other 90% the pleasant surprise ...

Despite the imaginary accounts of extensive marketing research, I simply do not believe that supporting waypoints would have cost them more than it would be worth in extra sales, or that it would cost them many sales of high-end drones that actually do have premium features the Mini can never have.

Reviews told you about the lack of active track - presumably because reviewers thought that it was an important feature, they mentioned the lack of raw images (which matters to me) but they didn't consider the lack of on-board waypoints worth mentioning. As you say the mini know where it is and where has to fly to for RTH, and the controller can update the home point during flight. What happened during the product planning stage which made DJI leave this feature out - none of us know.

All the mini's competitors ? For me the USP of the mini was I didn't have to register it, take any tests to use it or any of that stuff, just buy, stick to some simple (and obvious) rules and fly it. What sub-250g drone has comparable flight time, video or stills ?

Is it even 10% who use Litchi with other drones ? I don't know and I doubt if you do. But DJI won't have said to themselves "Hey we could make make $X more profit over the same time if we did this - but let's not do it". They will have said (a) "It will reduce margins which we won't get back from extra volume" or (b) "It will increase development / validation costs, which we won't get back from extra sales" (c) "It needs extra hardware which we will take us over the 250g limit or consumes more power which reduces flight time" or (d) Regulators don't like unregistered drones which can make autonomous flight decisions, so no follow or uploaded waypoints in the sub 250g class, or we will see the rules changed to require registration. (e.g. change the weight from 250g flying weight to maximum take off weight of 250g).

Usually there is a some argument within a product team about whether a feature can be omitted, and it's often resolved is by asking some real customers. You can be sarcastic about "imaginary accounts of extensive marketing research". Sometimes it's a quick call or email an influential end user. "We're thinking about a future product and whether it should have X in it... what do you think nice to have? Vital? No-one will notice?"
You also ask the question "If we put this from the premium product on the base product are we competing with ourselves ?"

Given the size of DJI I think you can assume a decent number of people spend a lot of time on the spec for each model. The spec for the mini isn't the first thing an intern scribbled on the back of an envelope.

 

[Deleted member 114292]

Reviews told you about the lack of active track - presumably because reviewers thought that it was an important feature, they mentioned the lack of raw images (which matters to me) but they didn't consider the lack of on-board waypoints worth mentioning. As you say the mini know where it is and where has to fly to for RTH, and the controller can update the home point during flight. What happened during the product planning stage which made DJI leave this feature out - none of us know.

All the mini's competitors ? For me the USP of the mini was I didn't have to register it, take any tests to use it or any of that stuff, just buy, stick to some simple (and obvious) rules and fly it. What sub-250g drone has comparable flight time, video or stills ?

Is it even 10% who use Litchi with other drones ? I don't know and I doubt if you do. But DJI won't have said to themselves "Hey we could make make $X more profit over the same time if we did this - but let's not do it". They will have said (a) "It will reduce margins which we won't get back from extra volume" or (b) "It will increase development / validation costs, which we won't get back from extra sales" (c) "It needs extra hardware which we will take us over the 250g limit or consumes more power which reduces flight time" or (d) Regulators don't like unregistered drones which can make autonomous flight decisions, so no follow or uploaded waypoints in the sub 250g class, or we will see the rules changed to require registration. (e.g. change the weight from 250g flying weight to maximum take off weight of 250g).

Usually there is a some argument within a product team about whether a feature can be omitted, and it's often resolved is by asking some real customers. You can be sarcastic about "imaginary accounts of extensive marketing research". Sometimes it's a quick call or email an influential end user. "We're thinking about a future product and whether it should have X in it... what do you think nice to have? Vital? No-one will notice?"
You also ask the question "If we put this from the premium product on the base product are we competing with ourselves ?"

Given the size of DJI I think you can assume a decent number of people spend a lot of time on the spec for each model. The spec for the mini isn't the first thing an intern scribbled on the back of an envelope.

Your right they are not going to buy a mini if they know about on board waypoints and think they need them.
Of course that's going to be a tiny percentage.
So then they will buy an MP2 (we still don't for sure about MA2) - exactly to DJIs plan.
That's how you stay in business.

 

[ajkm]

I used to use the litchi app to send my p3 on autonomous flights to check areas of my land (it’s legal in my country to operate drones beyond line of sight).

Terminology is important in this discussion - what Litchi and other apps provide is “automated” or “automatic” flight options. They are not “autonomous”, which is illegal in most jurisdictions.
“Autonomous” means that there is no possibility for the pilot to step in and take immediate control of the aircraft and that, during flight, the app or aircraft itself makes its own decisions to respond to changes in environmental or flight system conditions.

 

[Deleted member 114292]

Terminology is important in this discussion - what Litchi and other apps provide is “automated” or “automatic” flight options. They are not “autonomous”, which is illegal in most jurisdictions.
“Autonomous” means that there is no possibility for the pilot to step in and take immediate control of the aircraft and that, during flight, the app or aircraft itself makes its own decisions to respond to changes in environmental or flight system conditions.

I suppose we can debate the meaning of autonomous but I don’t think having the ability for the pilot to step in disqualifies it.
If the way points are loaded into the drone and it can fly without the pilot then it is autonomous.

And for now the mini cannot do that.

 

[Hreemnamashivaya]

For the present moment no autonomous missions are possible with the mini.
Not with any software.
That’s because right now DJI does not support loading waypoints to the ac.
And right now DJI has not said it will ever support them.

IT IS POSSIBLE WITH REDWAYPOINT APPLICATION PRESENT IN THE ANDROID PLAY STORE.

 

[bobzdar]

IT IS POSSIBLE WITH REDWAYPOINT APPLICATION PRESENT IN THE ANDROID PLAY STORE.

Nope, from their website:

1. If the Remote Controller looses connection with the aircraft, will the aircraft keep following the waypoints or will it return home?
By security issues, the aircraft will not continue the mission. By default it will RTH (Return To Home). But the aircraft action when loosing signal can be changed in the Advanced Configuration, changing the Fail Safe Mode to this different options: Return To Home, Land or Hover in place. We always recommend to use the Return To Home mode setting when loosing RC signal.

Either the Mini can't store waypoints onboard or DJI hasn't exposed that ability, but it does not appear that's possible on the Mini at this point (possibly ever). Not a big deal imo as in most places it's not legal to let the drone fly out of line of sight, and the range of the controller extends well beyond where you can actually see the drone, at least in my experience.