Mini 3 Pro vanished this morning

[WilliamDaugherty]

UPDATE: DJI service responded that this would be considered a standard flyaway case, i.e., I had to pay the $235 for the replacement. I've been out-of-town and swamped so I haven't had a chance to call them and try to figure out why this wasn't considered a warranty case. No matter, I paid and will be glad to get the replacement. I will update with more info as it becomes available.

 

[Meta4]

I haven't had a chance to call them and try to figure out why this wasn't considered a warranty case.

That would be because there's no evidence of a fault that would be covered by warranty.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

All these guesses and speculation mean nothing, we need to see the flight data......

Have you seen the data I shared above? There's nothing in the raw data that shows anything that I haven't described/displayed already. With such an abrupt end to the data stream there's really no way to know with certainty what exactly happened, but it seems very likely that there was a systemic loss of power.

 

[Meta4]

Have you seen the data I shared above? There's nothing in the raw data that shows anything that I haven't described/displayed already. With such an abrupt end to the data stream there's really no way to know with certainty what exactly happened, but it seems very likely that there was a systemic loss of power.

You only posted a small snapshot of a tiny part of the recorded flight data.
But it's likely that the data just shows that the drone was flying ... and then it wasn't, without showing anything to explain why.
The cause could have been a swelling battery that gradually eased worked itself out enough to break the power connection.
It could have been a rare hardware fault.
It could have been several things, but whatever it was, there's no evidence to tell what it was.
If you had the wreckage, perhaps DJI could dig deeper to solve the mystery, but without any evidence, it's just one of those unexplained incidents.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

That would be because there's no evidence of a fault that would be covered by warranty.

That is a very interesting point. As you may have read above, the tech support rep with whom I spoke said that pilot error would result in a charge but manufacturer defect would not. In this case there's really no evidence either way, so I guess in case of a tie, the house wins. I'm not upset with that really.

My only lingering concern is that this is very strange behavior for the aircraft. I've flown about 20 DJI drones over this exact stretch of terrain probably >1k times. I know there's nothing that would cause interference (it's a rural location with no power lines, microwave towers, noisy wifi, etc.) and there was no indication of a bird strike, so I am mystified as to what could have caused this. My request for further elaboration has thus far yielded no response.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

You only posted a small snapshot of a tiny part of the recorded flight data.
But it's likely that the data just shows that the drone was flying ... and then it wasn't, without showing anything to explain why.
The cause could have been a swelling battery that gradually eased worked itself out enough to break the power connection.
It could have been a rare hardware fault.
It could have been several things, but whatever it was, there's no evidence to tell what it was.
If you had the wreckage, perhaps DJI could dig deeper to solve the mystery, but without any evidence, it's just one of those unexplained incidents.

Yes, I posted the last second or so, which was no different than the preceding 60 seconds. Your second sentence captures the gist of the entire episode. I spent at least an hour at the precise last know position because I genuinely wanted DJI to be able to learn whatever they could about this incident.

Your battery theory is interesting, except that the battery in question was from a Fly More Plus kit that I had only just received a few days before the flight in question. Also, I've been babying the batteries, i.e., very little max speed/climb loads, always let them cool down completely before recharging, never discharge them deeply, etc. I also check the batts after every flight, after every charge, and before every launch. That battery showed zero anomalies.

My main reason for posting the details of this incident was to shed some light on a troubling possibility that there may be a design or manufacturing flaw with this aircraft. I am the first to admit when I have done stupid things and caused my drones to crash. It has happened many times. But in this case where a very routine flight ended so mysteriously, I have to really question how it is possible. Perhaps this is a singular occurrence. If so, that's fine. But if it's not, we should know the data points.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

These anomolus behaviors are becoming a little concerning. I have experienced several wierd issues with this drone so far even after all the updates. I wonder if it was rushed to market too soon. Even though the Mavic 3 had some issues early on it has always been rock solid for me. I wonder if DJI pushed the limits a little too hard.with the Mini 3. Just my thoughts....

I really like the aircraft, especially with the RC controller. This was the first and only problem I experienced. Frankly, if nobody else has this issue I would say it's just the inevitable rare failure and that's the end of it. But, if it's not so rare, we have a different situation.

 

[Meta4]

Yes, I posted the last second or so

You posted a snapshot of a small part of the data.
The actual recorded flight data is a spreadsheet with 168 columns of data and a row for each 1/10th of a second of flight.
It shows far more than the very brief summary you looked at.
But because of the nature of the incident, it probably won't show anything except that data recording stopped with the drone

I spent at least an hour at the precise last know position because I genuinely wanted DJI to be able to learn whatever they could about this incident.

Because the drone was flying east at 27 mph when signal was lost, the wreckage wouldn't have ended up there.
If it fell from that point, it might have ended up approximately 100 metres further along the direction of flight.
But looking at the aerial, it's likely to have been caught up in a tree and impossible to find.

Your battery theory is interesting, except that

It wasn't my theory of what happened.
I simply added a few examples of possible explanations for an incident like yours.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

Latest update: The analyst who sent the terse message yesterday was kind enough to elaborate this morning. After reiterating the circumstances of the final reported moments of the flight (which have been shared above) he says this:

"The record ended without any sign of abnormality, so we could not verify what happened afterward. According to the Google map, there were many obstacles, and the aircraft could not avoid obstacles and its braking distance increased significantly in Sport mode, there was a possibility that the aircraft crashed to the obstacles and was unable to proceed with the RTH process."

He then continued to say I could use the flyaway coverage to get a replacement, which I already did early yesterday.

Given my certainty as to the aircraft's relative distance to any possible obstacles, I determined I would help them understand more precisely what we know. This morning I recreated the flight using a Mini 2, took video throughout, and sent them the flight log plus a link to the video, which clearly shows It is simply impossible at 422' AGL for the aircraft to touch anything other than air. Let's see what they have to say if/when they review this new information.

As I've said before, I really like the Mini 3 Pro and I don't really care about the money. My concern first and foremost: is there something systemically wrong with the aircraft? Maybe so, maybe not, but it is important to know.

 

[Meta4]

he says this: According to the Google map, there were many obstacles, and the aircraft could not avoid obstacles and its braking distance increased significantly in Sport mode, there was a possibility that the aircraft crashed to the obstacles and was unable to proceed with the RTH process.

Sounds like whoever did the analysis wasn't DJI's best.
It would only take a minute to calculate how high the drone was above the ground below it.
It sounds like the data person didn't check that and was imagining things that are unlikely (or not relevant at all).
If you want to know that height, post your flight data.

But even with their best data analyst, the cause of the incident would still remain unknown.

My concern first and foremost: is there something systemically wrong with the aircraft? Maybe so, maybe not, but it is important to know.

No ..there isn't something systematically wrong with the Mini 3.
There are several hundred thousand of them out there, flying safely.
There's no way to know if the cause of the issue was a fault in the drone, or the battery or something else.
But even if it was a rare fault in that particular aircraft, a very small number of faukts out of a production run of hundreds of thousands isn't something to worry about.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

But even with their best data analyst, the cause of the incident would still remain unknown.

No ..there isn't something systematically wrong with the Mini 3.
There are several hundred thousand of them out there, flying safely.
There's no way to know if the cause of the issue was a fault in the drone, or the battery or something else.
But even if it was a rare fault in that particular aircraft, a very small number of faukts out of a production run of hundreds of thousands isn't something to worry about.

The specific question in this instance is: if there is no known cause, how can DJI attribute the fault to the pilot? In my earlier comment I likened it to a tie at the Blackjack table: the house wins. If that's their position, I'm fine with that, although I suspect with better data they may come around.

The specific terrain in question can be viewed on the USGS quadrant maps but that does not account for trees, which are the only obstructions in the area. The flight I ran this morning will give them very precise geolocation data (the flight log) and very specific visual data in the video, including the gimbal tilt, AGL, etc. Matching the two should be very simple and if they want to know the facts, it won't be difficult. All this is to say that that flight did not end because of a crash due to pilot error as the rep suggested this morning. If they stonewall me, so be it, but if I luck into a curious, conscientious person, they might come around.

"Systemic" does not equal "systematic". I never suggested this was a broad problem, only that it could be a design or production flaw. Even if such a problem is limited to a relatively small number of customers, don't those folks deserve to be treated appropriately rather than as the cause of the lost aircraft? I think so. You say "not to worry" but if you are on the receiving end, it's a legitimate concern.

I understand that we live in an imperfect world, but I still think it's important to be fair and equitable in assigning responsibility for a system failure.

 

[Meta4]

The specific question in this instance is: if there is no known cause, how can DJI attribute the fault to the pilot?

It's not a binary choice of your fault or DJI's.
The third option is an unknown cause, one for which thefre is no evidence.
And your incident is one of those.

I suspect with better data they may come around.

WIthout the drone, there won't be any more data.

The specific terrain in question can be viewed on the USGS quadrant maps but that does not account for trees, which are the only obstructions in the area .. All this is to say that that flight did not end because of a crash due to pilot error as the rep suggested this morning. If they stonewall me, so be it, but if I luck into a curious, conscientious person, they might come around.

If you post your data, I can quickly tell how high the drone was above terrain and since you've been there, you can add the tree height.
But all that will do is to point out that their analyst was on the wrong track with comments about hitting trees and obstacle avoidance.
But it still won't change the incident status from unknown cause.

Even if such a problem is limited to a relatively small number of customers, don't those folks deserve to be treated appropriately rather than as the cause of the lost aircraft?

If there is evidence that a drone was lost due to a DJI fault, they are good at replacing them.
But without evidence to show that, nothing can be done.

I understand that we live in an imperfect world, but I still think it's important to be fair and equitable in assigning responsibility for a system failure.

You would have to have evidence to show "system failure", but so far there is none, and it's unlikely there will be.

 

[fiberdude]

All this is to say that that flight did not end because of a crash due to pilot error as the rep suggested this morning. If they stonewall me, so be it, but if I luck into a curious, conscientious person, they might come around.

DJI, as an established brand name in the amateur drone business, has more to gain by acknowledging failure of their hardware and/or flightcontrol software if there is indeed evidence to support such failure. $235 is very little money in comparison.

I have to say DJI has been quite honest in handling cases of drone crashes from my dealings with them in Asia in the last 5-6 years. I don't see why it is different in North America.

You would have to have evidence to show "system failure", but so far there is none, and it's unlikely there will be.

I am in full agreement with Meta4 that there is absolutely no evidence to support such a conjecture.

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

DJI, as an established brand name in the amateur drone business, has more to gain by acknowledging failure of their hardware and/or flightcontrol software if there is indeed evidence to support such failure. $235 is very little money in comparison.

I have to say DJI has been quite honest in handling cases of drone crashes from my dealings with them in Asia in the last 5-6 years. I don't see why it is different in North America.



I am in full agreement with Meta4 that there is absolutely no evidence to support such a conjecture.

As I have said repeatedly, DJI has always been wonderful to me. I've had many pilot error crashes, but I've had quite a few hardware failures as well. They have always taken responsibility for the latter. This is of course a different situation given the lack of wreckage, assuming it dropped out of the sky.

My reference to "new data" is specific to my response to the rep's claims that there were obstructions that the drone likely struck in the vicinity of the last known position. This is simply not possible, so I flew the same mission this morning and provided them with both the flight data and a continuous video shot from the drone. If they simply match the video to the flight data they can readily see there's absolutely nothing high enough to obstruct the aircraft. The highest treetops are 100' below. This negates the reps multiple suggestions that it was pilot error. Data is data.

It's one thing to say "we simply don't know, therefore you must invoke your flyaway coverage", versus "you probably crashed the drone into the trees/terrain". I'm OK with the former, but have a problem with the latter.

 

[tlyons]

As I have said repeatedly, DJI has always been wonderful to me. I've had many pilot error crashes, but I've had quite a few hardware failures as well. They have always taken responsibility for the latter. This is of course a different situation given the lack of wreckage, assuming it dropped out of the sky.

My reference to "new data" is specific to my response to the rep's claims that there were obstructions that the drone likely struck in the vicinity of the last known position. This is simply not possible, so I flew the same mission this morning and provided them with both the flight data and a continuous video shot from the drone. If they simply match the video to the flight data they can readily see there's absolutely nothing high enough to obstruct the aircraft. The highest treetops are 100' below. This negates the reps multiple suggestions that it was pilot error. Data is data.

It's one thing to say "we simply don't know, therefore you must invoke your flyaway coverage", versus "you probably crashed the drone into the trees/terrain". I'm OK with the former, but have a problem with the latter.

Two thoughts:
1. Go out a after the next breezy day. High chance it will fall. Further, go out again when the leaves come off the trees.
2. If DJI agrees it's not pilot error, then what kind of unknown cause (other than drone failure) could make a drone fall out of the clear blue sky with no obstacles near by? Not knowing which kind of drone failure doesn't change anything. DJI should step up. I would keep politely pushing them.

 

[fiberdude]

If DJI agrees it's not pilot error, then what kind of unknown cause (other than drone failure) could make a drone fall out of the clear blue sky with no obstacles near by?

Here is one possibility: a low-flying helicopter just above the treetops can hit the drone from behind or sides. The drone pilot would have no idea what happened to the drone before power is out.

A few years ago, a small Kyiv copter almost destroyed my Mavic 2 Pro over a tiny island in the middle of Dnieper River. The pilot obviously didn't see the drone:

Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com

 

[AnzacJack]

If you have had many pilot error crashes and quite a few hardware failures, Id be giving up on drone flying. it sounds like you have some major issues keeping thses things in the air, or you are conducting a lot of risky flights

 

[WilliamDaugherty]

If you have had many pilot error crashes and quite a few hardware failures, Id be giving up on drone flying. it sounds like you have some major issues keeping thses things in the air, or you are conducting a lot of risky flights

I have never missed a job due to lack of aircraft, so I think I'm doing OK. I don't count the hardware failures as a negative against me and since DJI has been so good about warranty repairs, it's worked out well. As for the pilot errors, yes, many are attributable to high-risk flights, but that's just the nature of the business. I do a fair amount of public safety/SAR work and sometimes things go sideways. I have some interesting stories. I also have had a number of stupid mistakes that I made for no good reason. Most resulted in minor mishaps, but several were catastrophic. Given that I was in the top 1% of DJI flight hours last year, I can't complain. Stuff happens when you fly a lot.

 

[AnzacJack]

If your happy with that, that’s all that matters.
It looks like you have been flying for about 5 years so it still seems like a lot of crashing to me

 

[retiredNH]

I have never missed a job due to lack of aircraft, so I think I'm doing OK. I don't count the hardware failures as a negative against me and since DJI has been so good about warranty repairs, it's worked out well. As for the pilot errors, yes, many are attributable to high-risk flights, but that's just the nature of the business. I do a fair amount of public safety/SAR work and sometimes things go sideways. I have some interesting stories. I also have had a number of stupid mistakes that I made for no good reason. Most resulted in minor mishaps, but several were catastrophic. Given that I was in the top 1% of DJI flight hours last year, I can't complain. Stuff happens when you fly a lot.

Hope you get your new drone soon.
Just wanted to say hello from down the road a bit, live in Dublin NH. Yes, I think it hard for flat landers to understand how steep our terrain is and how tall and thick our forest canopy is.