Mini 4 Pro Plus battery and RID ?

[reedyjt]

Ok, maybe I don't understand what you mean by "built in." Obviously you've read the entire thread because it's only a bit more than a dozen posts so you know we all agree that the Mini 4 Pro activates RID to ON when you insert the extended battery. That's hardly what I would call "built in" but if that's what you are referring to....ok, fine. However, there is some [personal] doubt (from myself and a few others) as to whether RID is turned OFF when you remove the extended battery. Is that your thinking....when you switch back to the standard (sub-250g) battery? Is there some sort of indicator on the drone or the remote when RID is ON/OFF?

So when I flew the mini 4 pro without registering it with the normal battery, it flew just fine, no warnings. When I went to fly the first time with the battery+ I was grounded. It said something to the effect on the controller that I needed remote ID and to have therefore to have the drone registered. So I was forced to go home, get on FAA website and do the whole registration and all, then I could go out and fly it and see the remote ID properly working on the screen. Keep in mind this was adding NO additional hardware other than swapping normal battery for the battery+. I honestly haven't paid attention to what happens on the screen when you switch back to normal battery.

So I do stand corrected, the RID is not built into the battery itself, but is in the drone and automatically turned on when the battery+ is inserted. It is correspondingly turned off when a normal battery is inserted. My apologies for assuming it was part of the battery+, but for all intents and purposes it basically is. That is, if the battery+ is inserted it activate RID and when and normal battery is inserted it doesn't activate RID.

My apologies for adding to the confusion, it's good for everyone to have an understand of how this "edge" case RID functionality works!!

• Remote ID Activation:
  The DJI Mini 4 Pro, after a firmware update, only activates Remote ID when using the Intelligent Flight Battery Plus.
• Standard Battery:
  When using the standard Intelligent Flight Battery, the Mini 4 Pro will not broadcast Remote ID.

 

[reedyjt]

So when I flew the mini 4 pro without registering it with the normal battery, it flew just fine, no warnings. When I went to fly the first time with the battery+ I was grounded. It said something to the effect on the controller that I needed remote ID and to have therefore to have the drone registered. So I was forced to go home, get on FAA website and do the whole registration and all, then I could go out and fly it and see the remote ID properly working on the screen. Keep in mind this was adding NO additional hardware other than swapping normal battery for the battery+. I honestly haven't paid attention to what happens on the screen when you switch back to normal battery.

So I do stand corrected, the RID is not built into the battery itself, but is in the drone and automatically turned on when the battery+ is inserted. It is correspondingly turned off when a normal battery is inserted. My apologies for assuming it was part of the battery+, but for all intents and purposes it basically is. That is, if the battery+ is inserted it activate RID and when and normal battery is inserted it doesn't activate RID.

My apologies for adding to the confusion, it's good for everyone to have an understand of how this "edge" case RID functionality works!!

• Remote ID Activation:
  The DJI Mini 4 Pro, after a firmware update, only activates Remote ID when using the Intelligent Flight Battery Plus.
• Standard Battery:
  When using the standard Intelligent Flight Battery, the Mini 4 Pro will not broadcast Remote ID.

I actually found a very good explanation of how all this works that covers both part 107 and recreational users. It's somewhat relieving to know that even the professional are a bit confused on how all this works with the DJI mini series drones.

Remote ID Update for DJI Mini 3 and 4 Explained - Pilot Institute

DJI Mini 3 and 4 Remote ID update explained. This article covers battery size issues, recreational vs. commercial flying, and avoiding airspace violations.

pilotinstitute.com

 

[MS Coast]

I'm confused. I'm not sure if anyone on this thread has actually used the mini 4 pro with the extended life battery.

You can be certain that there are many of us flying Mini 4 Pro drones with the plus batteries.

The remote ID hardware is built into the bigger battery itself- there is no need to buy an extra RID kit.

The RID transmitter is in the drone, not in the battery. RID is switched on when the drone detects the plus battery and not switched on when it detects the standard battery.

Although the Mini 4 Pro has built-in RID, it is not enabled when the standard battery is used. If you're flying commercially or have registered the drone, it is necessary to add an RID module to be compliant.

 

[Dogpilot]

It is a very confusing and somewhat seemingly random system. Lousy weather here today, I needed something to distract me from a project that is stalled. Yes, if you put a BIX140 battery, the Mini 4 lightweight, it does not send out remote ID. You kind of need to let it fly or hover for around 5 minutes to confirm this. Change to the Plus battery. It does not immediately switch to RID transmission. You must have a GPS lock and be in flight, hovering at least. It takes around 3-5 minutes to switch on. If you continue with another Plus battery, it comes on quickly then. Went back to the lightweight Mini 4 battery. Took it a flight and a shutdown to make it stop transmitting. Put a Mini 3 lightweight battery BIX160 in. It to will switch on the RID transmission, again after a GPS lock and a few minutes in the air.

I checked this with both a laptop and an iPhone. Dronescanner is utterly worthless on an iPhone. It never saw anything. The Mini 4 Pro never seemed to transmit a bluetooth signal, but it does show up on WiFi, either as a WiFi starting in RID... Sometimes it comes up as a WiFi called Mini 4 Pro.... Occasionally it will show on the iPhone's WiFi, but no consistency was found, if it transmits it does show up on the laptop's WiFi. It never showed on the laptops Bluetooth.

For a cross check, My Mavic 3 Cine shows up if I start the propellers, both on WiFi and bluetooth and even on the iPhone. Now in all this, both the laptop and the phone where around 2-3m for the hovering aircraft. Dronescanner never saw either model, bluetooth or not. Even if I connected to the Mavic 3's bluetooth (not sure what that accomplished).

I could not get any response by simply adding weight, a strobe, that put it over 250.

Both systems transmit, once they start transmitting, until you switch off the drone completely. Confusing, yes, does it make sense or work consistently when you test it, no it does not react the same all the time. If you're bored, go try it yourself.

 

[scottjo2152]

This discussion got me to thinking that I should test my Mini 4 Pro to see how the RID functioned with both batteries. First I used the plus battery which made the drone over 249 grams. With the drone and RC2 controller both on but the motors not turning, I selected the note on the RC2 screen, upper left, "Takeoff Permitted". It showed "Remote ID functionally normal (code 1B08003). Then I took the drone up a few feet and used the Android "Drone Scanner" app on my phone to search for the RID signal. It showed "1 drone around" with my drone serial number and the map location of the drone.

Next I turned everything off, including the phone, changed to the standard battery, (under 249 grams) and repeated the test. Again the Takeoff Permitted, showed Remote ID functionally normal and the Drone Scanner showed the signal with my serial number.

I repeated the tests several times in various order over a few hours and got the same results. I will not try to understand how or why I got these results, just reporting my testing.

Scott
Mini 3 Pro, Mini 4 Pro, Air 3S.

 

[mavic3usa]

^ and ^^ Ok so confirming your experience and then concluding the following:

If your Mini drone is FAA registered and you are transmitting standard RID because you use the extended battery, if for some reason, your drone not longer transmits RID (likely because you switched to the standard lightweight battery) then you have to attach a broadcast RID module to your Mini in order to legally fly a registered drone. Correct?

Your drone cannot be FAA registered yet not transmit some sort of RID, yeah?

Cancel the registration.....then you can legally fly a recreational drone less than 250g.

 

[thegoat]

PER DJI apparently adding weight to the Drone alone WILL trigger the RID to turn on.
Anyone here with a 4 care to test this for me?
The Drone has a set RPM...If the rpm exceeds the standard takeoff speeds the RID will trigger.

I have no idea and I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. DJI doesn't display the RID number in the interface unless RID is turned on, so if that was true you'd need to fly it in an out-of-compliance configuration to be able to get the info you need to register the drone to bring it into compliance. Plus DJI advises using a module for compliance and that would result in the drone sending out an unregistered RID info on top of what the module is sending, which seems like asking for anyone who is actually monitoring RID to ask what's going on.

This whole thing seems like a big mess. Someone goes to Costco, buys the Mini 4 Pro package with two batteries for $750, and goes flying. Then they decide to add a strobe to catch sunset pictures and they are out of compliance and need to buy an RID module to add yet more weight. Or, worse, they buy a single large battery, and now the two batteries they already have are no longer legal to use in the US, unless they add a RID module when using the other batteries? Which you can't really do because now you have to double register your drone which seems like something the FAA would not like. Technically, an RID module is supposed to be used with only one drone.

Seems like DJI should have either not offered the larger battery and stayed firm on "we don't have RID on the mini because we intend it to be flown for recreation at under 250g, if you want to deviate from that it's up to you to figure out compliance," or they should have simply offered a toggle to turn RID on. As a one-way switch if that's what the FAA requires.

As it is, I bet there are a lot of these drones that are registered but aren't sending out RID a good part of the time because the owners have a mix of batteries, and DJI is switching RID on and off depending on which battery is installed for a particular flight. And maybe people are putting the registration numbers on the big battery and thinking that's OK because when it's not overweight it's not required to be registered, so it's no different than a second owner buying the drone and not registering it because they only fly it under 250g.

This has been bugging me because a) I'm currently waiting for my 107 certificate to process in IACRA, and b) I've been eyeing that Costco $750 Mini 4 Pro package both for flying in the US and bringing along on international trips (where RID would likely not be required because the drone is <250g).

...
Next I turned everything off, including the phone, changed to the standard battery, (under 249 grams) and repeated the test. Again the Takeoff Permitted, showed Remote ID functionally normal and the Drone Scanner showed the signal with my serial number.
...

See that would make sense as a behavior (assuming I understood you correctly). Once the drone goes RID, it stays RID, so you can register it and fly with whichever battery you want. But it sounds like most people agree that RID changes back and forth with the battery.

 

[Dogpilot]

That is what it would seem to indicate. Of course, you could switch to using the Mini 3's lightweight battery the BW160. It is 2 grams heavier putting the drone at 250 and turns on RID. Or you can use the regular BW140 battery and add it to the list of un-indicted offenses you may have done that day. Then again, if you use a Plus battery and get it to turn on the RID, it will, so it seemed for me, to persist for at least one flight when switching back to the lightweight BW140 battery. The one advantage of the lightweight battery, at least what I have found, the drone copes better with wind on the return. Especially since I am at 7000' (2130m) and the drone really does have to try harder up here.

 

[msinger]

Obviously, if you fly the mini 4 pro without the bigger battery, the remote ID hardware goes away, and it become like flying any other sub 249g drone without remote ID.

That's not allowed. Once the drone has been registered, it must always be flown with RID.

 

[thegoat]

A real irony of this is that the official "solution" for compliance when you have a mix of batteries involves the fiction that a single physical drone is two drones, each registered separately. One with RID enabled in the drone, and the other using a module for RID. For each flight you are choosing to fly one of two fictional instances of a single physical drone - each with different IDs broadcasting. To accomplish that you need buy extra hardware, muddle up the FAA database with duplicate entries, pay extra registration fees, and remember for each flight whether you need the module or battery (and if you really want to show you are in compliance, you should probably keep a record of which configuration was used for each flight).

If everyone is willing to accept that (expensive and complicated) fiction, why not accept the simpler fiction that a single physical drone is two drones, one registered and the other not registered? Either way, we are pretending that one physical object is two objects for regulatory purposes. But pretending the second drone is an unregistered drone is less expensive and less complicated. If you fly with the plus battery, you are flying the fictional instance of the physical drone that is registered. And with the regular battery you are flying the fictional instance of the physical drone that isn't registered. Just remember to always use the plus battery for 107 flying (or flying with lights/accessories attached).

Of course DJI could fix this whole thing with the flip of a switch - a software switch to allow people to broadcast RID regardless of the battery installed. They could even make installing the plus battery automatically flip that switch. It seems like that's what should happen. That would also solve for people who add weight to their drone with accessories, too - a win all around.

 

[mavic3usa]

A real irony of this is that the official "solution" for compliance when you have a mix of batteries involves the fiction that a single physical drone is two drones, each registered separately. One with RID enabled in the drone, and the other using a module for RID. For each flight you are choosing to fly one of two fictional instances of a single physical drone - each with different IDs broadcasting. To accomplish that you need buy extra hardware, muddle up the FAA database with duplicate entries, pay extra registration fees, and remember for each flight whether you need the module or battery (and if you really want to show you are in compliance, you should probably keep a record of which configuration was used for each flight).

If everyone is willing to accept that (expensive and complicated) fiction, why not accept the simpler fiction that a single physical drone is two drones, one registered and the other not registered? Either way, we are pretending that one physical object is two objects for regulatory purposes. But pretending the second drone is an unregistered drone is less expensive and less complicated. If you fly with the plus battery, you are flying the fictional instance of the physical drone that is registered. And with the regular battery you are flying the fictional instance of the physical drone that isn't registered. Just remember to always use the plus battery for 107 flying (or flying with lights/accessories attached).

Of course DJI could fix this whole thing with the flip of a switch - a software switch to allow people to broadcast RID regardless of the battery installed. They could even make installing the plus battery automatically flip that switch. It seems like that's what should happen. That would also solve for people who add weight to their drone with accessories, too - a win all around.

DJI has always leaned towards the Mini drone being primarily for recreational flyers and since under 250, requires no FAA registration; this is their most effective marketing for the Mini series. Therefore the drone is suitable for 90%+ of the flyers. If RID is enabled, it should be the bare minimum. Unfortunately the FAA compliance does not permit a manual "switch" to control RID so DJI has few options. They really screwed up the Mini 3 and it appears they tried to repair this with the Mini 4 but it's never going to be perfect for everyone/everything.

 

[thegoat]

DJI has always leaned towards the Mini drone being primarily for recreational flyers and since under 250, requires no FAA registration; this is their most effective marketing for the Mini series. Therefore the drone is suitable for 90%+ of the flyers. If RID is enabled, it should be the bare minimum. Unfortunately the FAA compliance does not permit a manual "switch" to control RID so DJI has few options. They really screwed up the Mini 3 and it appears they tried to repair this with the Mini 4 but it's never going to be perfect for everyone/everything.

Yeah I get that DJI views this as a way to push 107 pilots to more expensive drones. That's why I said they would be better off just saying "It's <250g and we don't support heavier weights or RID on the Mini 4, if you want to operate outside our supported modes that's on you."

That said, I've worked with federal agencies regarding regulatory compliance. Not the FAA, but I understand in broad terms the sorts of things they do. And they are generally really happy if you have a solution that fits within their framework, but they generally won't specify the exact technical approach as long as it fits their framework. There are limits to that, of course, but the FAA has a framework for RID Modules. I suspect they would be perfectly happy to approve a DJI "RID module" that was designed specifically for the Mini 4 drones, for example. It fits exactly into the framework of RID Modules adding RID to non-RID drones. And they probably wouldn't care how that module was implemented as long as it met the requirements.

So... what's to stop DJI from selling selling a module that is entirely software? I don't know, but unless you've tried, or they've tried, you don't know either. I know that in broad terms it's exactly the sort of solution federal agencies like because it's easy to classify.

DJI could "Include it" with the plus batteries, cellular modem, and other accessories that take the drone weight above 249g. Installing any of those permanently adds an RID module to the drone. They could also sell it, providing a means of compliance for 107 pilots and others who need RID.

That would seem to make everyone happy.

And, if they did that, they could also have a "removal tool" to remove the RID from the drone. It would be no different than physically removing a hardware module from a drone. You can see the use case of a 107 pilot who sells their drone. If they used a physical module they would de-register the drone, remove the module from the drone, and the next owner of the drone could then choose to install their own module if needed. That would give DJI the ability to sell modules to each owner of the drone, so that's even more money DJI could make. And, again, from a regulatory/oversight perspective it would behave for the FAA exactly the way physical modules behave so I suspect the FAA would be happy.

Of course I don't know if regulators would actually go along with it, and DJI has to comply with a lot more than just the FAA, but it seems like a solution that would be a lot less hassle, a lot less confusion, and accomplish more goals than the current mess. But if the FAA insisted on hardware, they could probably do a very simple socket with a single ROM containing the RID number. Maybe repurpose a SIM card from the cellular phone world. It would add a fraction of a gram, and would behave exactly like any other physical RID module. It can physically be removed, but when installed the drone broadcasts the RID from the module.. DJI could sell that that $0.10 circuit board for $10 and again still make everyone happier than the current approach.

Edit: Out of morbid curiosity, I dug up the regulations. The requirements are listed here: Federal Register :: Request Access

A lot of requirements, but nowhere does it say that the module needs to be hardware, or completely self contained. Maybe this has been tried and shot down, but if I was a drone maker I'd take that as a green light to make a completely software module, and work with the FAA to get it approved as a RID Broadcast Module. If that didn't fly, I'd come back with a hardware component to physically complete a circuit enabling RID Broadcasting, get it approved as a RID module for that drone, and if the FAA didn't go along with it I'd push them for why. Again, I've never done that with the FAA, but I have with other federal agencies and stranger things get approved every day.

 

[mavic3usa]

Yeah I get that DJI views this as a way to push 107 pilots to more expensive drones. That's why I said they would be better off just saying "It's <250g and we don't support heavier weights or RID on the Mini 4, if you want to operate outside our supported modes that's on you."

That said, I've worked with federal agencies regarding regulatory compliance. Not the FAA, but I understand in broad terms the sorts of things they do. And they are generally really happy if you have a solution that fits within their framework, but they generally won't specify the exact technical approach as long as it fits their framework. There are limits to that, of course, but the FAA has a framework for RID Modules. I suspect they would be perfectly happy to approve a DJI "RID module" that was designed specifically for the Mini 4 drones, for example. It fits exactly into the framework of RID Modules adding RID to non-RID drones. And they probably wouldn't care how that module was implemented as long as it met the requirements.

So... what's to stop DJI from selling selling a module that is entirely software? I don't know, but unless you've tried, or they've tried, you don't know either. I know that in broad terms it's exactly the sort of solution federal agencies like because it's easy to classify.

DJI could "Include it" with the plus batteries, cellular modem, and other accessories that take the drone weight above 249g. Installing any of those permanently adds an RID module to the drone. They could also sell it, providing a means of compliance for 107 pilots and others who need RID.

That would seem to make everyone happy.

And, if they did that, they could also have a "removal tool" to remove the RID from the drone. It would be no different than physically removing a hardware module from a drone. You can see the use case of a 107 pilot who sells their drone. If they used a physical module they would de-register the drone, remove the module from the drone, and the next owner of the drone could then choose to install their own module if needed. That would give DJI the ability to sell modules to each owner of the drone, so that's even more money DJI could make. And, again, from a regulatory/oversight perspective it would behave for the FAA exactly the way physical modules behave so I suspect the FAA would be happy.

Of course I don't know if regulators would actually go along with it, and DJI has to comply with a lot more than just the FAA, but it seems like a solution that would be a lot less hassle, a lot less confusion, and accomplish more goals than the current mess. But if the FAA insisted on hardware, they could probably do a very simple socket with a single ROM containing the RID number. Maybe repurpose a SIM card from the cellular phone world. It would add a fraction of a gram, and would behave exactly like any other physical RID module. It can physically be removed, but when installed the drone broadcasts the RID from the module.. DJI could sell that that $0.10 circuit board for $10 and again still make everyone happier than the current approach.

Edit: Out of morbid curiosity, I dug up the regulations. The requirements are listed here: Federal Register :: Request Access

A lot of requirements, but nowhere does it say that the module needs to be hardware, or completely self contained. Maybe this has been tried and shot down, but if I was a drone maker I'd take that as a green light to make a completely software module, and work with the FAA to get it approved as a RID Broadcast Module. If that didn't fly, I'd come back with a hardware component to physically complete a circuit enabling RID Broadcasting, get it approved as a RID module for that drone, and if the FAA didn't go along with it I'd push them for why. Again, I've never done that with the FAA, but I have with other federal agencies and stranger things get approved every day.

I appreciate the thought you've put into this and for the most part, I agree; however, I'm only going to say that I really wish it was this way but...I don't think so and I'll keep it short. [my opinion follows]. The Mini 4 is the next (but close) version of the Mini 3 and there's no way to substantially make it that much different from 3 to 4; seems to me they tweak the Mini 3 RID solution by a tiny bit and release it.

DJI is not as sophisticated as you wrote. They don't understand a lot about RID and they probably don't care that much about it to make it anything more than a simple government requirement that you meet and get approved. They have no super-expertise in grand solutions and in monetizing RID and they barely have people in-house to know how to implement it effectively (I'm surprised some of their solutions actually gained compliance). We know their RID plans are not always timely and we know it's not always accurate; I would be shocked to know there was an RID expert at DJI on top of this. Seems to be a USA thing and the rest of the world doesn't quite care (for now) so if I were DJI, I wouldn't let it impact me and my operations. My airframe, my firmware, my batteries, the labeling....it's gotta be bare minimum, for now. Costs.

The US passed a law that said all [Chinese] drones built and sold to America after a certain period of time must have RID with a narrow exception. Ultimately it's not cool if DJI just continued to build millions of drones in the narrow category and told Americans to figure out your own [RID] solution. That's what they did with Mini 3 and it stung. Honestly, I don't believe there's a legal way for DJI to sell the extended battery in the US (which take it over the weight) without some sort of a standard RID solution...just ask Europe. It fails the marketing test for sure.

You're way ahead of us and the drone community on your points. We are not ready for sim-cards, for specialized drone models (that work significantly from previous models), for complex registration schemes (that are not integrated), and pretty much any type of payment system besides POS. Good stuff but none of that would "fly: today; my guess is it would all be completely ignored by the consumer (due to confusion) and we would end up all over the board. Resellers and retailers would be zero help. Remember, this equipment has to sustain in the market and the aftermarket for a decade or longer, imagine the confusion and the complex support structure that you setup with all of this from the very beginning, Remote ID wasn't quite "a thing" to start with few years ago.....we really didn't even know if we would get viable and affordable external broadcast modules. None of this was planned properly with is why the process is not perfect.....but maybe one day.

 

[thegoat]

You make good points.

I will say that DJI has some experience with the sort of thing they would need to do to implement this, in that they have a fairly pushy integrated experience for selling their drone insurance to new drone owners. I'm sure they could figure out how to make it work if they wanted to.

But I think your fundamental point, that DJI doesn't know and care enough about the ins and outs of RID, beyond what they need to do to keep selling their product, is probably exactly right. As someone with a Mavic Air 2 who was sweating DJI actually getting their solution approved while RID rolled out, I had a front row seat to seeing how they handled that.

As a consumer, it's frustrating to be trapped in the middle of it. Fortunately this doesn't have a huge impact on me, but it bugs me that it's done this badly. I actually did buy that Costco Mini 4 bundle I mentioned earlier in the thread (took it flying for the first time earlier today), and I'm waiting for my 107 application to process, so I'm kinda in the middle of it, but I don't have the cert yet so all my flying is for fun, and a month ago someone gifted me an RID module so I have a zero-cost way of being in compliance once it matters. I just wish everyone involved did a better job with this.