MM1 How much would a steady15mph sustained wind hold back the MM1

[slup]

...BUTTT.... Your answer is still wrong lol. There is no way of knowing the correct answer to this question. What you and 100% of everyone else besides myself so far fails to factor in is aerodynamics of the drone...

Jeez ... only you know & nobody else ?

 

[FlyBackOU812]

The drone has two things potentially limiting its speed.

1. Raw aerodynamics along with available power
2. Software, combined with GPS input.

If it were just the first issue, then it would be simple: the drone has a max speed through the air, and smooth air carries everything, including the moving drone, along at a fixed windspeed. Just add the wind vector to the vector describing the drone's velocity through the air.

But the software can make it more complicated.

Consider that with your hands off the sticks, the drone hovers in still air. Add a 5mph steady wind, and the drone still hovers at 0mph ground speed! It maintains that 0mph ground speed up to its limit.

When the stick is pushed just a little bit in any direction, the drone moves with a small ground speed, regardless of wind speed (until the wind is just too strong).

It's clearly not being simply carried by the wind at low wind speeds and small stick movements. The software attempts to let us ignore the wind and pretend we're flying in still air. But it can't maintain that illusion forever. With high enough wind speeds, the drone gets blown downwind, regardless of the software.

The original question could be answered if we knew exactly how hard the software attempted to maintain the illusion that we're flying through still air, and how it behaved as it approached conditions where the illusion couldn't be maintained.

I don't have the source code. I don't know the answer.

Sounds like you know exactly what you are talking about. So with that being said and understood by myself, are you saying I was inadvertently correct, that it's impossible without the "sourcecode" and ability to read it to be able to calculate the correct answer? What it sounds like what you are saying is that it's TRUE that a 10mph headwind doesn't mean it will slow a drone down 10mph?. Could be more or could be less??? In other words theres no way of figuring out the answer without the code? If that is correct then this subject matter AND this thread just got a whole lot more interesting. I will be eagerly waiting for your reply. Thanks

 

[Meta4]

Sounds like you know exactly what you are talking about. So with that being said and understood by myself, are you saying I was inadvertently correct, that it's impossible without the "sourcecode" and ability to read it to be able to calculate the correct answer? What it sounds like what you are saying is that it's TRUE that a 10mph headwind doesn't mean it will slow a drone down 10mph?. Could be more or could be less??? In other words theres no way of figuring out the answer without the code? If that is correct then this subject matter AND this thread just got a whole lot more interesting. I will be eagerly waiting for your reply. Thanks

No, no and no.
You just got distracted again.
You've been told the correct answer by several people that understand what's involved.
You've had it explained by a number of them too.

Go back to his post #28 and you'll see that he said:
The drone has two things potentially limiting its speed.

1. Raw aerodynamics along with available power
2. Software, combined with GPS input.

If it were just the first issue, then it would be simple: the drone has a max speed through the air, and smooth air carries everything, including the moving drone, along at a fixed windspeed. Just add the wind vector to the vector describing the drone's velocity through the air.

But point 2 is related to the way a hovering drone resists the wind or a drone deals with a tailwind and not relevant to your question.

You were given a complete answer and explanation in the first reply to your question.
That's all there is to it and there's no need to continue the "discussion".

 

[FlyBackOU812]

Jeez ... only you know & nobody else ?

I was referring to only the people I had discussed this with previously which was about 10 others so yes that would mean 100% of everyone I was talking about ( Mod Removed Language)Some of yall need some Jesus in your life or maybe just end it all if life is that miserable for you and it makes you so horrible to deal with in any manner than only just cussing you out and bringing ourselves to your level of miserable where you wait for any and all opportunities to pounce and TRY to make someone feel less of a human being with your arrogant comments. But that doesn't work with me, I pounce back (Mod Removed Inappropriate Remark)I don't cower down like some will so take that ( Mod Removed Language)somewhere else, it has no negitive effect on me, you're wasting your time and energy here

 

[Meta4]

But that doesn't work with me, I pounce back ( Mod removed Remark)I don't cower down like some will so take that Mod Removed Language)somewhere else, it has no negitive effect on me, you're wasting your time and energy here

It seems that anyone who's tried to explain a very, very simple principle to you has been wasting their effort.
It's just not getting through to you is it?

How can you be so sure that others are wrong when you have zero understanding of the issue?

 

[FlyBackOU812]

No, no and no.
You just got distracted again.
You've been told the correct answer by several people that understand what's involved.
You've had it explained by a number of them too.

Go back to his post #28 and you'll see that he said:
The drone has two things potentially limiting its speed.

1. Raw aerodynamics along with available power
2. Software, combined with GPS input.

If it were just the first issue, then it would be simple: the drone has a max speed through the air, and smooth air carries everything, including the moving drone, along at a fixed windspeed. Just add the wind vector to the vector describing the drone's velocity through the air.

But point 2 is related to the way the drone deals with a tailwind and not relevant to your question.

You were given a complete answer and explanation in the first reply to your question.
That's all there is to it and there's no need to continue the "discussion".

Maybe there's no need to continue the discussion for you or some others that know a lot about the subject at hand but for me and maybe even for some others like myself that has never learned or studied the very first 101 page on the subject matter, there maybe some need to continue the discussion its not up to you to decide when others should understand ANYTHING at all. But you sir are not only welcome to leave at anytime you like, but it's also wanted by at least me at this point with your arrogant and demeaning comments to the person that started this thread. Your input and what you feel and think is not a requirement for life. I have already stated that I was wrong in my thinking and why I thought that way and even apologized to anyone I may have inadvertently seemed rude to no point in trying to rub it in just to be an ( Mod Removed Language)I could give you many facts about certain things that I know and have learned in life that you have never learned or studied, only difference would be that I wouldn't try to make you feel bad about knowing whatever it might be. I'm sure you can't be so arrogant to believe you know everything I know and have learned thru life. We've just learned different things is all so trying to make me feel stupid is a complete waste of your time cuz thats not gonna happen the best you could do and what has already happened in this thread is that I will learn something new and be more the wiser about something that doesn't pay my bills or make me happier with life

 

[LotusFan]

He's my 2p
"I don't know!" but I would like to give my thoughts

I'm going to start with a couple of assumptions, please correct me if these assumptions are wrong
- The Mini can only measure Ground Speed (using GPS) - Not Airspeed as it does not have those sensors
- Ground Speed is electronically limited to 19M/S = 29MPH, according to the other posts on here
- The Mini could probably have a faster AIR speed, if it wasn't electronically limited

So purely as an example for this discussion, I'll pick a number and say that the Mini could have an airspeed of 35MPH if it wasn't limited

My best assumption on how it works. (using my guess of 35MPH theoretical top speed) ........
- In no wind, the Air Speed and Ground Speed are the same, max speed is 29MPH
- In a gentle head wind of less than 6MPH, Ground speed is still electronically limited to 29MPH, Air Speed would be 35MPH
- With a Head wind of 15MPH, The AIR speed would be 35MPH, but the max GROUND speed would be 20MPH (35-15)


As I say, all theoretical, but as the Mini can't measure air speed, there will always be trade off between ground speed, the model's max air speed and wind speed

In reality, I would guess that the Mini's maximum Air Speed is much closer to the max ground speed of 29MPH


One other thought, on more basic models, the different modes were often expressed as maximum bank angle, the steeper the angle allowing greater speeds, it's possible that the Mini uses this too?

 

[FlyBackOU812]

It seems that anyone who's tried to explain a very, very simple principle to you has been wasting their effort.
It's just not getting through to you is it?

How can you be so sure that others are wrong when you have zero understanding of the issue?

I've already explained to you and others why I thought I was correct with the aerodynamics and that is why I thought for sure everyone had to be wrong. Seems you are lacking a bit of ability of understanding certain things yourself considering this latest comment of yours to me. Im ok with learning something new and humbling myself when wrong, are you? Doesn't appear that you are to me

 

[FlyBackOU812]

He's my 2p
"I don't know!" but I would like to give my thoughts

I'm going to start with a couple of assumptions, please correct me if these assumptions are wrong
- The Mini can only measure Ground Speed (using GPS) - Not Airspeed as it does not have those sensors
- Ground Speed is electronically limited to 19M/S = 29MPH, according to the other posts on here
- The Mini could probably have a faster AIR speed, if it wasn't electronically limited

So purely as an example for this discussion, I'll pick a number and say that the Mini could have an airspeed of 35MPH if it wasn't limited

My best assumption on how it works. (using my guess of 35MPH theoretical top speed) ........
- In no wind, the Air Speed and Ground Speed are the same, max speed is 29MPH
- In a gentle head wind of less than 6MPH, Ground speed is still electronically limited to 29MPH, Air Speed would be 35MPH
- With a Head wind of 15MPH, The AIR speed would be 35MPH, but the max GROUND speed would be 20MPH (35-15)


As I say, all theoretical, but as the Mini can't measure air speed, there will always be trade off between ground speed, the model's max air speed and wind speed

In reality, I would guess that the Mini's maximum Air Speed is much closer to the max ground speed of 29MPH


One other thought, on more basic models, the different modes were often expressed as maximum bank angle, the steeper the angle allowing greater speeds, it's possible that the Mini uses this too?

Now that was a great explanation to someone that knew absolutely nothing on the matter to begin with and was just going off of what I thought at the time was logical common sense to someone like myself that has never learned the basic subject matter in the least bit. Thank you for that explanation and also for not trying to make me look or feel stupid that many others have tried to do without ANY success because I know my worth in my world and can't be made to feel that way because I know I have much knowledge in the things that matter to me that might not be the case for others in different fields that I Excell in and make a great living doing. You sir are a top notch human being with class and I have and will give you much respect for that ?

 

[slup]

Adding below for members that arrive to this confused thread later on ...

So ... theorizing in all it's glory (in this case pretty straight forward though), the flight logs rarely lie.

So throwing in this live example from a flight where my MA1 was fighting a straight headwind in Sport mode ... it only contain 3 graphs so it shouldn't be particular puzzling.

AC parameters to be aware of ...

Max air speed in Sport = 19m/s
Max tilt angle in Sport 35 degrees

The chart ...

The Blue = headwind in m/s (unfortunately quite low frequent from the DAT log)
The Black = the achieved AC ground speed in m/s
The Red = the used tilt angle in degrees

Conclusion : In each & every moment the sum of the headwind (Blue) & the AC ground speed (Black) makes very close to 19m/s ... which is the max airspeed the MA1 can achieve.

(just click on the chart to make it larger)


*EDIT*

... also adding in a chart displaying the sum between the headwind & the AC ground velocities to make it easier to see how close it is to those max 19m/s.

 

[LotusFan]

Adding below for members that arrive to this confused thread later on ...

So ... theorizing in all it's glory (in this case pretty straight forward though), the flight logs rarely lie.

So throwing in this live example from a flight where my MA1 was fighting a straight headwind in Sport mode ... it only contain 3 graphs so it shouldn't be particular puzzling.

AC parameters to be aware of ...

Max air speed in Sport = 19m/s
Max tilt angle in Sport 35 degrees

The chart ...

The Blue = headwind in m/s (unfortunately quite low frequent measurement from the DAT log)
The Black = the achieved AC ground speed in m/s
The Red = the used tilt angle in degrees

Conclusion : In each & every moment the sum of the headwind (Blue) & the AC ground speed (Black) makes very close to 19m/s ... which is the max airspeed the MA1 can achieve.

(just click on the chart to make it larger)
View attachment 123914

Slup. great info thanks
Is the headwind value calculated?
It must be as the Mini doesn't have airspeed sensors

I wonder how airspeed would be measured on a drone,? planes have pitot tubes, but they always fly in the direction of the tubes (side slip given!)

 

[Meta4]

Now that was a great explanation to someone that knew absolutely nothing on the matter to begin with and was just going off of what I thought at the time was logical common sense to someone like myself that has never learned the basic subject matter in the least bit.

A really great explanation, except that it's wrong!!
If you look closely you'll notice he used words like guess, assumption, I don't know etc.
It's just wrong.

So why is such a simple thing so impossible for you to understand?
Why do you refuse to believe people that do understand and insist they are wrong like some loopy conspiracy theory supporter?

 

[LotusFan]

A really great explanation, except that it's wrong!!
If you look closely you'll notice he used words like guess, assumption, I don't know etc.
It's just wrong.

So why is such a simple thing so impossible for you to understand?
Why do you refuse to believe people that do understand and insist they are wrong like some loopy conspiracy theory supporter?

Hi Meta4
I'm not going to get involved with your argument with someone else, just keen to know which bits are wrong?
I choose my words carefully and stressed that they were assumptions

 

[Meta4]

Hi Meta4
I'm not going to get involved with your argument with someone else, just keen to know which bits are wrong?
I choose my words carefully and stressed that they were assumptions

It's very confused and based on a misunderstanding of how the drone works.
When you started by saying:
.. my guess of 35MPH theoretical top speed .... everything after that was going to be wrong.

The Mini's top speed is 29 mph and that's the place to start.
There's no limiting or calculations based on airspeed or unknown coding.
If the drone is flying it's hardest (which would give it 29 mph in still air) but the air mass is moving at 10 mph in the opposite direction, the result is that the drone flies at 19 mph relative to the ground.

 

[FlyBackOU812]

A really great explanation, except that it's wrong!!
If you look closely you'll notice he used words like guess, assumption, I don't know etc.
It's just wrong.

So why is such a simple thing so impossible for you to understand?
Why do you refuse to believe people that do understand and insist they are wrong like some loopy conspiracy theory supporter?

Maybe it's the way some of yall word things and how demeaning you try to make look or feel. I hear nothing except "blah blah blah" and also "( Mod Removed Remark)and and your so far beneath my greatness blah blah blah. Noone wants to hear that (Mod Removed Language)and I wont give any respect or listen to or believe a thing you have to say or offer after that. Maybe that's something you have have learned today. Hopefully so

 

[slup]

Slup. great info thanks
Is the headwind value calculated?
It must be as the Mini doesn't have airspeed sensors

I wonder how airspeed would be measured on a drone,? planes have pitot tubes, but they always fly in the direction of the tubes (side slip given!)

Yes, correct, it's calculated & you find it in the mobile device DAT log and if I remember correctly they are in the DAT's for the Mini also. The values are very close to those shown in the payed subscriptions at Airdata.com so I find them useful ... also they correspond to the wind warnings I get from My MA1. This DAT signal was extensively discussed ... like a year ago with the CsvView creator.

 

[Meta4]

Maybe it's the way some of yall word things and how demeaning you try to make look or feel. I hear nothing except "blah blah blah" and also "( Mod Removed Remark)and and your so far beneath my greatness blah blah blah. Noone wants to hear that Mod Removed Language)

I made an effort to give you a perfect answer and an explanation that anyone could understand way back in post #2.
Several others also tried.
Despite having no understanding at all, you smugly told us all that we are wrong wrong and have continued to since then.

and I wont give any respect or listen to or believe a thing you have to say or offer after that. Maybe that's something you have have learned today. Hopefully so

You haven't given any respect or listened to or believed anything I said since the start of this sorry thread.
I definitely learned something, but unsurprisingly, not what you guessed.

 

[slup]

Maybe it's the way some of yall word things and how demeaning you try to make look or feel...

Well ... from post #14 you started up to dismiss all well founded answers to your OP (which, by mistake? only had alternatives for the AC to gain speed) by wrongly tell us that we didn't understand aerodynamics ... then fierce fully resisting all efforts to explain.

So yeah ... before writing away successive posts, it could be good to stop & ask yourself who's misunderstanding thing's.

 

[LotusFan]

It's very confused and based on a misunderstanding of how the drone works.
When you started by saying:
.. my guess of 35MPH theoretical top speed .... everything after that was going to be wrong.

The Mini's top speed is 29 mph and that's the place to start.
There's no limiting or calculations based on airspeed or unknown coding.
If the drone is flying it's hardest (which would give it 29 mph in still air) but the air mass is moving at 10 mph in the opposite direction, the result is that the drone flies at 19 mph relative to the ground.

Clearly there is the capability of electronic speed limiting, as Slup has shown, if there is light tail wind, then the tilt angle is reduced to maintain ground speed
My assumption was based on the likelihood that there would be similar control at all speeds, until the point that the wind overcomes the model's capability

Looking at slup's graph on post#5, albeit which is for a MA1 in P mode, The ground speed is being electronically limited by the aircraft
Are you 100% sure that at max allowable tilt in sport mode and at max power, the mini wouldn't exceed 29MPH?
or are the electronics controlling the tilt and power to ensure the ground speed does not exceed 29MPH?
Said another way. At full control stick deflection, would the aircraft go to maximum tilt, or would it tilt enough to achieve the required speed?

I've been flying model planes for years and very much have a feel for how fast the model can fly upwind or downwind. On full throttle, level flight, they have pretty much fixed airspeed and behave exactly as you have described (as I would expect too). This is also true for non GPS FPV quads which I fly

The mini does not strike me as being the same, when it's not too windy, the upwind and downwind performance appears to be similar - obviously to a point where it can't overcome the wind

 

[FlyBackOU812]

I made an effort to give you a perfect answer and an explanation that anyone could understand way back in post #2.
Several others also tried.
Despite having no understanding at all, you smugly told us all that we are wrong wrong and have continued to since then.

You haven't given any respect or listened to or believed anything I said since the start of this sorry thread.
I definitely learned something, but unsurprisingly, not what you guessed.

• (Mod Removed Inappropriate Post)