Obeying 30 metre rule - Is it possible?

[TerryToast]

This is a genuine question for the law abiding drone operators in our forum. Are you certain you are obeying the 30 metre rule at all times? Is that even possible?

CASA: “You must keep your drone at least 30 metres away from other people.”

Example 1: I am flying over a forest. Unknown to me, a group of hikers is hiking through the forest. If I fly over the hikers (eg at a heigh of 80 metres - above the tree line) without ever seeing them, then I have still broken the 30 metre rule. I FAIL

Example 2. I am flying over a low density residential suburb, taking commercial pics of a house for a real estate agency. Someone walks out their front door as my drone flies overhead (eg at a height of 50 metres above their house). I have broken the 30 metre rule. I FAIL

These are two simple examples, but clearly there are many more.

So I put it to you, that even if you believe you are obeying all drone laws, you are probably breaking the 30 metres rule at times, without even knowing it.

 

[vindibona1]

We don't have a 30 meter rule in the US but in general are instructed not to fly over people. The rules here recently changed that we can fly over people "when transitioning". But if we did have such a regulation I don't know how one could possibly comply 100% of the time. It's not as if people are always stationary, but move in unpredictable ways and you can't always be looking out for people, especially if the camera is pointed straight ahead.

I think authorities overlook the psychological effects of creating unreasonable rules which cause the normally law abiding citizen to break the rules for reasonable reasons. Another rule that I have to guess that everyone on this forum has broken at least once is the VLOS rule. If you are standing anywhere near trees you know your drone doesn't have to fly more than a few feet away before the trees obscure any sight of it, yet you might still even hear it.

 

[Meta4]

FAA: “You must keep your drone at least 30 metres away from other people.”

It sounds like you are confusing the FAA with CASA
Different countries .. different rules.

 

[TerryToast]

It sounds like you are confusing the FAA with CASA
Different countries .. different rules.

I was, thanks! I’ll update my original post, so as not to confuse people.

 

[TerryToast]

We don't have a 30 meter rule in the US but in general are instructed not to fly over people. The rules here recently changed that we can fly over people "when transitioning". But if we did have such a regulation I don't know how one could possibly comply 100% of the time. It's not as if people are always stationary, but move in unpredictable ways and you can't always be looking out for people, especially if the camera is pointed straight ahead.

I think authorities overlook the psychological effects of creating unreasonable rules which cause the normally law abiding citizen to break the rules for reasonable reasons. Another rule that I have to guess that everyone on this forum has broken at least once is the VLOS rule. If you are standing anywhere near trees you know your drone doesn't have to fly more than a few feet away before the trees obscure any sight of it, yet you might still even hear it.

The new FAA rules make more sense than the CASA “30 metre” rule.

I totally agree that the authorities overlook the psychological effects of creating unreasonable rules. Most people follow the rules where they can. However when you create rules which are impossible to obey, such as the “30 metre rule”, then people are forced to make a decision
1. Obey the rules and never fly my drone again: OR
2. Ignore the rules and fly my drone using common sense.

Once people cross that psychological bridge/line from “following all the rules” to “these rules are wrong so I’ll use common sense instead”, then all the rules become guidelines only.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

I agree, it's near impossible to be entirely sure you are always 30m lateral from any other person (recreational flight).
We should be grateful it's not 50m like the UK !

I have flown along a rocky beach for example, and when reviewing footage later, found a person walking a dog waaay below to one side slightly in the vision, can't see that on the mini 4 screen at the time.

The best one can do is be aware of what's happening around you, and treat it like manned aircraft coming into the airspace you're flying in . . . if you become aware of people below, move away to the approx 30m lateral distance.

Intent is probably something our authority would take into account should there ever be a report made, or heaven forbid an incident.
There's a big difference in the example above and say flying over a concert crowd.

 

[TerryToast]

I agree, it's near impossible to be entirely sure you are always 30m lateral from any other person (recreational flight).
We should be grateful it's not 50m like the UK !

I have flown along a rocky beach for example, and when reviewing footage later, found a person walking a dog waaay below to one side slightly in the vision, can't see that on the mini 4 screen at the time.

The best one can do is be aware of what's happening around you, and treat it like manned aircraft coming into the airspace you're flying in . . . if you become aware of people below, move away to the approx 30m lateral distance.

Intent is probably something our authority would take into account should there ever be a report made, or heaven forbid an incident.
There's a big difference in the example above and say flying over a concert crowd.

Flying over a concert crowd like this? It think it would be amazing to see and I hope it continues, but there are certainly risks involved.


Pic credit: Australian Army

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Flying over a concert crowd like this? It think it would be amazing to see and I hope it continues, but there are certainly risks involved.

View attachment 132414
Pic credit: Australian Army

Sort of, more like this . . .



Phantom wild flight over Warped concert, video easily found on YT using that title search in photo.
So many other examples out there.

The Blackhawk photo, yeah not without it's dangers, saw this video below last night on my feed, the rotor power knocking over street lighting posts . . .

 

[TerryToast]

Sort of, more like this . . .

View attachment 132415

Phantom wild flight over Warped concert, video easily found on YT using that title search in photo.
So many other examples out there.

The Blackhawk photo, yeah not without it's dangers, saw this video below last night on my feed, the rotor power knocking over street lighting posts . . .

Cars, motorbikes, helicopters, planes, drones, etc all have the potential to injure innocent people. Some of those risks are unavoidable, such as the Blackhawk being forced into an emergency landing. However those risks also increase exponentially if they are operated recklessly.

Drones are only relatively new creations, so I think the drone regulations that currently exist, error on the side of extreme caution.

Hopefully the drone laws will be relaxed soon. The sooner the better for everyone, because right now there is an entire generation of drone pilots who are taking that psychological step from “always follow the rules” to “just use common sense”. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it’s tough to go back. Furthermore, those old pilots will be teaching their bad habits to the new pilots.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Indeed, I have never found anything of worth worldwide regarding drones and such incidents, but as you say they need(ed) to err on the side of caution with the fledgling industry.

Roll back or ease laws ?
Hard to imagine they will do that, once they have measures in place, it'd be a very difficult task to reduce the current 'imposts', for want of a better word.
That would involve setting a whole new measured level of rules etc, to be tested and reviewed for effectiveness, re-educating industry and hobby sectors, as well as all other enforcement agents that might assist CASA on the ground now or in the future.

Mind you, having rules / laws that are unmeetable / unenforceable is pointless, and could in itself lead to changes sometime.
Needs input from industry though, not sure we have the sector cohesion / association etc that could assist that.
MAAA probably have a decent membership, but from what I've heard little (if any) interest in drone pilots.

Sort of relative, I did see a speed zone the other day changed from 60 to 80, no major reason I could see, just a safe well made dual lane road that's been unchanged for . . . well, as long as I can remember.
So these things can happen, all I could think was how many were caught and fined for going 65, 70 in that zone over the decades.

The psychological thing is interesting, I notice I have had this happen at times on flights, usually when really remote, and generally to do with VLOS.
But then I've put some specific things to a CASA rep in the past about a couple of my flights as examples, and they've said we aren't worried about that at all, rather going out of VLOS in busy / normal airspace in more populated areas.
So really that almost said to me they are flexible with common sense in some cases.
Of course blanket measurable rules are needed, on the roads or in the skies, so they can be enforced consistently.

Bottom line for now is if pilots put in the effort to fly by the rules set, it would almost mitigate chance of an incident on the ground or in the air to a very miniscule margin.

 

[Desert Sands]

This is a genuine question for the law abiding drone operators in our forum. Are you certain you are obeying the 30 metre rule at all times? Is that even possible?

CASA: “You must keep your drone at least 30 metres away from other people.”

Example 1: I am flying over a forest. Unknown to me, a group of hikers is hiking through the forest. If I fly over the hikers (eg at a heigh of 80 metres - above the tree line) without ever seeing them, then I have still broken the 30 metre rule. I FAIL

Example 2. I am flying over a low density residential suburb, taking commercial pics of a house for a real estate agency. Someone walks out their front door as my drone flies overhead (eg at a height of 50 metres above their house). I have broken the 30 metre rule. I FAIL

These are two simple examples, but clearly there are many more.

So I put it to you, that even if you believe you are obeying all drone laws, you are probably breaking the 30 metres rule at times, without even knowing it.

I'm in U.S., but curious about the CASA rule. In example 1. You are flying 80 Meters above tree canopy...how is that closer than 30 Metres? Does the rule forbid overflights entirely, regardless of height above people? IS the 30 Metres a lateral mandated distance? I'm not familiar with the CASA rules and am curious about regulations in other countries.

All the best,

Joe

 

[TerryToast]

I'm in U.S., but curious about the CASA rule. In example 1. You are flying 80 Meters above tree canopy...how is that closer than 30 Metres? Does the rule forbid overflights entirely, regardless of height above people? IS the 30 Metres a lateral mandated distance? I'm not familiar with the CASA rules and am curious about regulations in other countries.

All the best,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Height is irrelevant. Here’s a picture from CASA that explains it best.

 

[TerryToast]

The psychological thing is interesting, I notice I have had this happen at times on flights, usually when really remote, and generally to do with VLOS.
But then I've put some specific things to a CASA rep in the past about a couple of my flights as examples, and they've said we aren't worried about that at all, rather going out of VLOS in busy / normal airspace in more populated areas.
So really that almost said to me they are flexible with common sense in some cases.
Of course blanket measurable rules are needed, on the roads or in the skies, so they can be enforced consistently.

In my view laws, “blanket laws” do more harm than good. As per the psychology principal, one poor rule can result in drone pilots converting from “law abiding” across to just using “common sense” (which is often lacking and is very subjective).

Your traffic speed limit is a good example. If the government sets a “broad” speed limit of 20km/hr for every road, then many drivers would ignore the speed limit and use common sense to drive at whatever speed they think is appropriate for each road. That would be very bad and road deaths would skyrocket.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Blanket laws are a pita for sure, usually drafted for the 'lowest common denominator'.
It is hard to put up with many of them, but as you say common sense isn't that common, and totally subjective.
I too like the FAA approach to over people rule, personally . . . there could be situations with a 30m rule where a drone could impact a person on the ground with higher altitude limit / trajectory / momentum considerations.

 

[maggior]

It's hard to know for sure that you are being 100% compliant at all times. When I'm flying, I will avoid the areas where it's expected or I know there are people. Once time I was flying over a golf course which I thought was empty but it turned out there were some people there when I looked at the video later on. It was very early in the season and dusk, so there were some diehards still out there . If you want to be 100% compliant all of the time, I feel like you have to fly exclusively in the middle of nowhere or over farm fields. I at least try to be compliant.

The difference I see between drones and manned aircraft is anybody can walk into the store, buy a drone, and put it up in the air and know nothing about the rules or what they are doing. Somebody flying a manned aircraft has been through countless hours of required training. Sure we now have training in the US that even recreational pilots have to take, but is that really going to stop somebody from buying a drone at Best Buy and popping it up in the air knowing nothing and potentially doing something stupid and dangerous? I don't think so.

 

[peterc4]

? ? ? ? ?

 

[dave canada]

THIS IS KINDA SAD STUFF I,M JUST AN EVERYDAY GUY AND HAVE A GOOD USE IN THE AGRICULTURE FOR DRONES BUT tHINGS ARE GOING PRETTY FAST WON,T BE LONG THEYLL BE SHOT OUT OF THE SKY IF THEY BECOME A THREAT