Remote ID for registered drones under 250g

[Aerophile]

But can a drone be UN-registered? (De-registered, whatever.) It's a sincere question.

This drone is not "required" to be registered, so it would (apparently) come down to whether or not it is currently registered.

Human-crewed aircraft can be de-registered.

I know, I own one...and the FAA will de-register it if I don't keep its registration up to date - and pay the periodic registration fees. I know this because last year, I missed their initial notification to re-register it, and the threat of de-registration was real. It was also a bureaucratic nightmare trying to send them my re-registration payment.

So I need to ask: If a crewed aircraft can be de-registered, shouldn't a UAS be able to be de-registered, too?

I'm sure this is viewed as an extreme "edge case" by the FAA and not a priority. But it's not going to be a bizarre, one-off outlier. What happens when you sell your already-registered Mini to someone else? How is keeping the registration current handled? In many cases, the new owner won't even know it was previously registered. In those cases, is it still registered to the previous owner? Is the previous owner responsible for what the new owner does with it?

 

[scott135]

On the FAA Drone Zone/Dashboard/Manage Inventory, there is the option to change the status of your drone. The options provided are: Damaged, Lost, Sold, Stolen, Replacement, Other. Maybe Other allows for un-registering? I did not try it.

I sent a question to the FAA about a registered sub 250g drone and RID and got the following response:

If you opt to register your < 250 gram drone, you must either:

• have a drone equipped with standard remote ID, or
• retrofit your drone with a remote ID broadcast module, or
• operate exclusively within the geographic boundaries of an FAA-Recognized Identification Area.

It seems to verify what has been said.

 

[mavic3usa]

But can a drone be UN-registered? (De-registered, whatever.) It's a sincere question.

This drone is not "required" to be registered, so it would (apparently) come down to whether or not it is currently registered.

Human-crewed aircraft can be de-registered.

I know, I own one...and the FAA will de-register it if I don't keep its registration up to date - and pay the periodic registration fees. I know this because last year, I missed their initial notification to re-register it, and the threat of de-registration was real. It was also a bureaucratic nightmare trying to send them my re-registration payment.

So I need to ask: If a crewed aircraft can be de-registered, shouldn't a UAS be able to be de-registered, too?

I'm sure this is viewed as an extreme "edge case" by the FAA and not a priority. But it's not going to be a bizarre, one-off outlier. What happens when you sell your already-registered Mini to someone else? How is keeping the registration current handled? In many cases, the new owner won't even know it was previously registered. In those cases, is it still registered to the previous owner? Is the previous owner responsible for what the new owner does with it?

It's a good question. So I guess the official word is "cancel."

If you’d like to cancel the previously registered drone not equipped with Standard Remote ID

• While in your inventory, click on the three vertical dots associated with the drone under the “Actions” column and select “Cancel” from the drop down menu
• Note: a canceled device will remain in your inventory as “cancelled”

Source:

UAS Remote Identification | Federal Aviation Administration

Drones or unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) are fundamentally changing aviation, and the FAA is committed to working to fully integrate drones into the National Airspace System (NAS). Safety and security are top priorities for the FAA and remote identification (remote ID) of drones is crucial to...

www.faa.gov

Do you realize the additional problems this will incur if you cannot completely remove a registration? It could become a nightmare. Not sure if cancelled means it continues to be "registered" on the backend or it continue to be "your drone" until someone else creates a new registration for it?

 

[MS Coast]

Do you realize the additional problems this will incur if you cannot completely remove a registration? It could become a nightmare.

Probably no greater than the other situations where I cancelled accounts and records remain in the hosts' databases - banks, brokerage firms, magazine subscriptions, Amazon, numerous retailers, cell phone service providers, ...

Try creating a new account in an online service you've cancelled using the same user name. You'll likely find that your database record wasn't completely eliminated.

 

[scott135]

Maybe I will sell my drone to my wife for $1 (with a bill of sale for a paper trail) and select the SOLD option on the FAA website. Since the "new-to-her" drone is <250g, she will not be required to register it. "We" can then fly it for recreation and not worry about RID.

 

[mavic3usa]

Probably no greater than the other situations where I cancelled accounts and records remain in the hosts' databases - banks, brokerage firms, magazine subscriptions, Amazon, numerous retailers, cell phone service providers, ...

Try creating a new account in an online service you've cancelled using the same user name. You'll likely find that your database record wasn't completely eliminated.

Continuing to follow this discussion which is different that all other types of scenarios:

"All persons operating unmanned aircraft (UA) registered or required to be registered under 14 CFR Parts 47 or 48 must comply with the operating requirements of Part 89 by September 16, 2023."

According to that wording, it doesn't matter if the aircraft was voluntarily registered or not.

If cancelled does not mean de-register than your drone is still in the database and apparently there is no way to get it out of the database. If it is still in the database, then you need to have RID.

Which means, once you put your sub-250 drone into the database, it is "forever" needing to broadcast RID.

If cancelled mean de-register, why does it continue to show in my inventory? What happens when you sell the drone and you "cancel", can someone else register the same serial number? If you don't sell it and it remains in a "cancelled" state, does that mean RID is not required?

Maybe I will sell my drone to my wife for $1 (with a bill of sale for a paper trail) and select the SOLD option on the FAA website. Since the "new-to-her" drone is <250g, she will not be required to register it. "We" can then fly it for recreation and not worry about RID.

I must have missed that aspect for the recreational pilot registration, is there a "sold" option?

 

[scott135]

@mavic3usa Yes, I just looked again. There is a "Sold" option listed in the pull-down menu.

 

[MS Coast]

If cancelled does not mean de-register than your drone is still in the database and apparently there is no way to get it out of the database.

Cancelled does mean that the drone is no longer registered.

If it is still in the database, then you need to have RID.

No, the drone isn't registered. So anything associated with being registered is not applicable.

Which means, once you put your sub-250 drone into the database, it is "forever" needing to broadcast RID.

Not if the registration is cancelled.

If cancelled mean de-register, why does it continue to show in my inventory?

Because it was once among your list of registered drones and the FAA, like many businesses and organizations, chooses to leave it there.

What happens when you sell the drone and you "cancel", can someone else register the same serial number?

Yes.

If you don't sell it and it remains in a "cancelled" state, does that mean RID is not required?

It's still subject to the normal rules for RID requirements.

 

[Aerophile]

So I can "cancel" (de-register) my previously registered Mini. I can sell it to someone.

Then the new owner flies it, and - assuming the firmware update that silently switched-on RID had been previously downloaded and installed to that drone or the new owner updates the firmware - that now-unregistered Mini with a new owner will be broadcasting RID (the ID of the previously registered owner, me).

or

Then the new owner flies it, and - if the firmware update that silently switched-on RID was never downloaded and the new owner never installs any firmware updates - then it will NOT be broadcasting any remote ID (unless the new owner takes a firmware update, in which case...see the previous paragraph).

A bit messy, no?

For the record (and also true): My Mini was produced before the RID update was implemented (early Minis came from the factory with no RID capability, it was only enabled later via firmware update). I stopped downloading/installing firmware updates before the update rolled out that enabled RID, so mine has never broadcast RID (newer Minis came from the factory with RID enabled, so those have always broadcast RID).

I have not flown mine within the US National Airspace System since the RID mandate went into effect (perhaps ironically, I HAVE flown it outside the USA in several countries where no RID mandate exists or existed at the time I was there). That said, I'd like to fly it domestically again - and I have a trip to Japan coming up, where RID is required, and I do plan to fly it there (legally, so with RID). So I'll probably take all the firmware updates soon (including the one that switches on RID). But the "de-registration" option sounds intriguing.

Yes, it is a bit messy. I'm glad it's not my job at the FAA to figure out how to reconcile the regulations with all the potential use-cases that drone owners find themselves in.

 

[mavic3usa]

I must have missed that aspect for the recreational pilot registration, is there a "sold" option?

Yes, I just looked again. There is a "Sold" option listed in the pull-down menu.

Are you sure you are not looking at the part 107 dashboard because I don't see the "sold" option on the drone I have listed on my recreational dashboard? Perhaps my listing is old and there for doesn't have the newer feature and if you were to register a drone today in your recreational inventory, maybe it will have the "sold" option. But under the dots, I see two options: Cancel and Details.

Is there any FAA verbiage that explains how and when to use the "Sold" option?

 

[MS Coast]

So I can "cancel" (de-register) my previously registered Mini. I can sell it to someone.

Then the new owner flies it, and - assuming the firmware update that silently switched-on RID had been previously downloaded and installed to that drone or the new owner updates the firmware - that now-unregistered Mini with a new owner will be broadcasting RID (the ID of the previously registered owner, me).

or

Then the new owner flies it, and - if the firmware update that silently switched-on RID was never downloaded and the new owner never installs any firmware updates - then it will NOT be broadcasting any remote ID (unless the new owner takes a firmware update, in which case...see the previous paragraph).

A bit messy, no?

Yes, it is a bit messy. I'm glad it's not my job at the FAA to figure out how to reconcile the regulations with all the potential use-cases that drone owners find themselves in.

What's messy? The new owner is subject to the RID requirements like everyone else, and either complies or doesn't comply. Since the previous owner cancelled the registration and sold the drone, he's not involved.

Yes, there's probably an inactive record in the database with the drone serial number and RID number if there was one. And if the new owner flies the drone through an Oval Office window and hits the President, the FAA might call you about how to locate the buyer. Keep your sales receipt.

 

[scott135]

Are you sure you are not looking at the part 107 dashboard because I don't see the "sold" option on the drone I have listed on my recreational dashboard? Perhaps my listing is old and there for doesn't have the newer feature and if you were to register a drone today in your recreational inventory, maybe it will have the "sold" option. But under the dots, I see two options: Cancel and Details.

Is there any FAA verbiage that explains how and when to use the "Sold" option?

Sorry, not Part 107. I am strictly a recreational pilot. Again, sorry if I got you off track.

 

[mavic3usa]

What's messy? The new owner is subject to the RID requirements like everyone else, and either complies or doesn't comply. Since the previous owner cancelled the registration and sold the drone, he's not involved.

Sorry didn't get a chance to reply to your previous before this one. It's messy because it is still listed in your inventory even though it is cancelled. When I cancel the credit card in my Amazon credit card listing, the credit card is gone. It exists somewhere in the system, but not in my inventory, and I cannot use it and I cannot see it. Obviously the history is there since there may be a need to address earlier transactions, there may be returns, etc. but keeping the drone listed under your name is not cool even if it is marked cancelled. Let's say I "cancel" it and put in the corner, lay dormant. Can I (un)cancel it when I get ready to fly again? Apparently this is most applicable with the Mini 4 Pro battery situation.....

So let's say I sell the drone, do I need to cancel the registration otherwise it will block the new user from proper registration? Are duplicates allowed? When the new user registers, does the drone leave my inventory at that point? Or, it sounds like never. Again, I get it if the FAA want to keep track of the history but I'm just trying to understand the cancel function and since someone else mentioned a "sell" option I have to ask what that is all about as well. Is "sell" a cancel + something else? (n/a, sell is just your reason) I'm finding very little documentation on this and I normally can read all about these things for myself but I fear it is less documented because it's "messy."

I'm going to point out that it is likely whatever we discover now could change (for the better) over time and this thread/post could be dated, just in case anyone reads this down the line. Others have their opinions and I'm only pointing out the system (and the accompanying instructions) for the layperson is sloppy and inconvenient. Receipts are 1990s, no one has them these days and honestly, they mean nothing in the non-social world.

 

[mavic3usa]

Sorry, not Part 107. I am strictly a recreational pilot. Again, sorry if I got you off track.

No worries, I'm recreational pilot only. No biggie, if you get a chance to post a screen shot, I'd like to know where I can find the sell option because I've looked everywhere and I cannot find one for myself. Thanks.

 

[scott135]

@mavic3usa- Hopefully you can see the attached screen capture showing what I am seeing.

 

[mavic3usa]

@mavic3usa- Hopefully you can see the attached screen capture showing what I am seeing.

Ok yes I see it now, thanks for the clarification. The function is CANCEL from your list of actions and then you further clarify the reason why you wish to cancel; that makes sense. Agreed, I don't expect there to be any documentation on how to select your reason, it's self-explanatory.

However, I don't think this changes the function or does anything special but only describes what you intend to do. Probably good to have if you find it helpful but I don't think flyers need to be informed to choose "sold" in order to everything to work properly for the buyer. If you drone crashed and you chose "damaged" and a month later, you sold the damaged drone, I don't think you need to change it from damaged to sold. Or can you even do that once you cancel?

So my previous question is moot. Thanks again.

 

[MS Coast]

Sorry didn't get a chance to reply to your previous before this one. It's messy because it is still listed in your inventory even though it is cancelled. When I cancel the credit card in my Amazon credit card listing, the credit card is gone. It exists somewhere in the system, but not in my inventory, and I cannot use it and I cannot see it. Obviously the history is there since there may be a need to address earlier transactions, there may be returns, etc. but keeping the drone listed under your name is not cool even if it is marked cancelled. Let's say I "cancel" it and put in the corner, lay dormant. Can I (un)cancel it when I get ready to fly again? Apparently this is most applicable with the Mini 4 Pro battery situation.....

So let's say I sell the drone, do I need to cancel the registration otherwise it will block the new user from proper registration? Are duplicates allowed? When the new user registers, does the drone leave my inventory at that point? Or, it sounds like never. Again, I get it if the FAA want to keep track of the history but I'm just trying to understand the cancel function and since someone else mentioned a "sell" option I have to ask what that is all about as well. Is "sell" a cancel + something else? (n/a, sell is just your reason) I'm finding very little documentation on this and I normally can read all about these things for myself but I fear it is less documented because it's "messy."

I'm going to point out that it is likely whatever we discover now could change (for the better) over time and this thread/post could be dated, just in case anyone reads this down the line. Others have their opinions and I'm only pointing out the system (and the accompanying instructions) for the layperson is sloppy and inconvenient. Receipts are 1990s, no one has them these days and honestly, they mean nothing in the non-social world.

"It's messy because it is still listed in your inventory even though it is cancelled. When I cancel the credit card in my Amazon credit card listing, the credit card is gone. It exists somewhere in the system, but not in my inventory, and I cannot use it and I cannot see it."

Well, that's much like the FAA's drone registration system. The difference is that they let you see your cancelled registration, while the credit card company hides it from you. They're both still there.

"So let's say I sell the drone, do I need to cancel the registration...?"

Yes, of course.

 

[mavic3usa]

"It's messy because it is still listed in your inventory even though it is cancelled. When I cancel the credit card in my Amazon credit card listing, the credit card is gone. It exists somewhere in the system, but not in my inventory, and I cannot use it and I cannot see it."

Well, that's much like the FAA's drone registration system. The difference is that they let you see your cancelled registration, while the credit card company hides it from you. They're both still there.

"So let's say I sell the drone, do I need to cancel the registration...?"

Yes, of course.

Good, I like that: A button that you click on to view the cancelled registrations separately so it's not mixed in with your current registrations and current inventory.

Thanks for answering that but the real question is if I do not cancel my registration is it blocked, can the drone be registered by someone else? Please die, people get paid and disappear and don't look back, people sell stuff anonymously or they are not the original owner. We should be trying to avoid a situation similar to the DJI account binding situation. Unlike DJI, I'm sure the FAA will take care of it for you but maybe I'm wrong, perhaps multiple active registrations of the same drone are allow. Thoughts?

I'm asking because I am almost positive selling a drone the question is always asked how to clear off or reset the data on the drone but almost never how to ensure the FAA registration is cancelled.

 

[MS Coast]

Good, I like that: A button that you click on to view the cancelled registrations separately so it's not mixed in with your current registrations and current inventory.

Your credit card doesn't offer that feature. Is it really a problem having the cancelled registrations listed with the active registrations? How many drones do you have registered?

Thanks for answering that but the real question is if I do not cancel my registration is it blocked, can the drone be registered by someone else? Please die, people get paid and disappear and don't look back, people sell stuff anonymously or they are not the original owner. We should be trying to avoid a situation similar to the DJI account binding situation. Unlike DJI, I'm sure the FAA will take care of it for you but maybe I'm wrong, perhaps multiple active registrations of the same drone are allow. Thoughts?

If the FAA did not allow used drones (previously registered and unregistered) to be registered by the new owners, I'm sure we'd have heard about it. I've sold three drones that I'd registered (and cancelled) and never heard of a problem with the new owners registering them.

I'm asking because I am almost positive selling a drone the question is always asked how to clear off or reset the data on the drone but almost never how to ensure the FAA registration is cancelled.

No questions because it's so easy to do and confirm. On the DroneZone website, you select the drone's registration and cancel it using the Cancel function. It's immediately shown as cancelled and the drone is no longer registered.

 

[mavic3usa]

Your credit card doesn't offer that feature. Is it really a problem having the cancelled registrations listed with the active registrations? How many drones do you have registered?



If the FAA did not allow used drones (previously registered and unregistered) to be registered by the new owners, I'm sure we'd have heard about it. I've sold three drones that I'd registered (and cancelled) and never heard of a problem with the new owners registering them.



No questions because it's so easy to do and confirm. On the DroneZone website, you select the drone's registration and cancel it using the Cancel function. It's immediately shown as cancelled and the drone is no longer registered.

You're dodging the question.

That's ok, we are all here to learn. I think it's pretty important to know what will happen if you sell your drone and you don't cancel the FAA registration.

Because as soon as we learn the FAA database allows multiple registrations on the same serial number.....